Who was more hated during their reign: George W. Bush or Ronald Reagan?

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As someone who hadn't been born during the Reagan years, all I know about Reagan is information from a historical perspective. For some of you older members of ILX who might have experienced the administration firsthand...who in your opinion was spoken out against most? Bush or Reagan? It almost seems like a trend to hate George Bush at this point; people speak out about how much of an idiot he is, but often when you ask them why, they don't have a reason.

― Reatards Unite, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:39 (eighteen years ago)

I think W. I was a wee lass when Reagan was around but I think Dubya has inspired more bile b/c of the war. (aren't his approval ratings also the lowest ever?)

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:41 (eighteen years ago)

...people speak out about how much of an idiot he is, but often when you ask them why, they don't have a reason.

So, ask us why G.W. Bush is an idiot. Reasons there shall be.

― Aimless, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:44 (eighteen years ago)

b/c of the war

among other things.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:45 (eighteen years ago)

I don't think RWR got lower than 28% even after Iran-Contra.

W is not an idiot in the relevant matters, he's closer to the other answer in Stupid or Evil. (Which is why I think his political idol is Bill Clinton.)

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:46 (eighteen years ago)

i think bush is more hated and certainly he's a much easier target, mostly because of his bumbling around and his foreign policy, but personally i like him more than reagan. reagan never seemed like a real person, he was this conservative robot who had a slicker persona than clinton ever did and whose folksiness always struck me as bullshit. phil hartman snl sketch w/evil reagan otm. i could imagine having a conversation with bush, at least, and i get the sense that he's probably an alright guy despite all the crap his administration has pulled.

― félix pié, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:47 (eighteen years ago)

"alright" being relative, though

― félix pié, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:47 (eighteen years ago)

Everything I've read or heard suggests he's a really nice, likable guy in person. Although a lousy president. . .

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:49 (eighteen years ago)

yeah which is kind of the problem with the left's attempt to frame him as an evil supervillain. he's totally not! he's completely sincere and believes in what he's doing, and that comes across. the whole "bush is like hitler" thing falls on its face when you've got him fumbling around with puppies and attempting to tribal dance.

― félix pié, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:51 (eighteen years ago)

i'm sure bush is a lovely guy to anyone who isn't in his way/going to muss up his plans

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

félix pié TIME TO WAKEY WAKEY, EGGS & BAKEY

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:53 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

I really don't think he has many plans. I've always seen him as an affable puppet for his evil mentors.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:54 (eighteen years ago)

that's how you're supposed to see him

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

i'm not an idiot, the guy's a horrible president and worthy of being booted from office at the very least. his public persona is very crafty in that way.

― félix pié, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:55 (eighteen years ago)

he's completely sincere and believes in what he's doing

yes and no. he's a very political animal and is willing to be completely insincere toward sincere ends, or insincere about some things if they help him do what he sincerely wants

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:57 (eighteen years ago)

I've always seen him as an affable puppet for his evil mentors.

THAT was Reagan. "amiable dunce"

Bush is a bastard.

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 18:58 (eighteen years ago)

http://blog.wfmu.org/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/05/dubya_dance5.gif

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:00 (eighteen years ago)

[image][Removed Illegal Link]

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

http://blog.wfmu.org/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/05/dubya_dance2.gif

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:02 (eighteen years ago)

gwb is a total passive-aggressive egomaniacal entitled frat-boy douche - not a super-villain but also not a nice likable guy who's just not cut out to be usa presidente.

i remember hating reagan alot as a kid, in retrospect he was obv much better than bush.

― jhøshea, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:03 (eighteen years ago)

Reagan was a fool, but his fool ideas were his own. If you read that book that compiled his (self-written) radio addresses you can see how his Reader's Digest/Human Affairs-fueled idealogy took shape.

Reagan certainly was critic proof, and none of the attacks on him were personal. At the height of Iran-Contra – when it became clear that he was either so stupid that he had no idea what he signed off on or so detached that he had no problem ignoring a junta run by two successive national security advisors – the Washington elite never once considered impeachment. He made Don Regan the fall guy and that was that.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:05 (eighteen years ago)

hmmmm

At the height of Iran-Contra – when it became clear that he was either so stupid that he had no idea what he signed off on or so detached

vs.

Reagan was a fool, but his fool ideas were his own

― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:06 (eighteen years ago)

yes and no. he's a very political animal and is willing to be completely insincere toward sincere ends, or insincere about some things if they help him do what he sincerely wants

But this is true of every successful politician-president since Jefferson.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:07 (eighteen years ago)

http://wizardishungry.com/blog/_/2007/05/almostgotit.gif

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude ‫茄蕃‪, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:08 (eighteen years ago)

what is he holding?

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

no those are the same thing, "he was a fool" = he was stupid and also ignorant, doesn't mean he couldn't still have his own dumbass ideas. just like dubya!

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

Ms Misery that is what is known as an "empty bottle" from zelda III I believe

― TOMBOT, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

http://www.pollkatz.homestead.com/files/nixonbushchart_files/BNCapp_12756_image001.gif

― abanana, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:09 (eighteen years ago)

xxpost,

hmm, so he's a drunk? I know not these video game references.

― Ms Misery, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:11 (eighteen years ago)

no those are the same thing, "he was a fool" = he was stupid and also ignorant, doesn't mean he couldn't still have his own dumbass ideas. just like dubya!

The difference, though, is that Reagan actually crafted his doggerel in 30 years' worth of speeches, radio addresses, articles, etc, while Bush seems most obviously the "vile cretin" Hitchens once called RR.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:12 (eighteen years ago)

I was pretty young when Reagan was pres, but I'm thinking Bush II.

I've also read/heard it said (and I don't think the source was necessarily lefty) that besides W, Reagan was probably the dumbest president we've had in the last 100 or so years (maybe ever?). You can also more or less thank Reagan for spearheading the whole RNC appropriation of Jesus.

But still, I think W makes even staunch conservatives wince with his dumbassery.

― will, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:25 (eighteen years ago)

You can also more or less thank Reagan for spearheading the whole RNC appropriation of Jesus

No doubt he courted the evangelical card – his famous Evil Empire speech was at a fundie rally in Tampa – but there were just votes. He never went to church or talked about Jesus.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

* card = camp

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:29 (eighteen years ago)

Bush is not a puppet, he is a stubborn bastard.

― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:40 (eighteen years ago)

He never went to church or talked about Jesus.

that was Ed Meese's job.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

He never went to church or talked about Jesus

this is true. and I suspect the relationship between the Republican party and fundamentalism was more symbiotic. I guess my point is that there was probably a time pre-Reagan where it seemed more acceptable for the Born Again crowd to vote Democrat.

― will, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:41 (eighteen years ago)

W is a "front man," not a puppet.

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:42 (eighteen years ago)

felix pie otm throughout

also phil hartman would make a killer regan & i really want to see that skit

― deeznuts, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:44 (eighteen years ago)

I'm pretty much with Morbz on this one

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 19:45 (eighteen years ago)

None of those Bush gifs are anywhere near as funny as the original, and in fact none of them are funny.

― Hurting 2, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:05 (eighteen years ago)

i laughed

― stevie, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:07 (eighteen years ago)

The Zelda one rules

― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:08 (eighteen years ago)

Whatever else can be said of the Reagan administrations, they did essentially accelerate the fall of the Soviet Union. Bush will have a legacy of practically nothing positive in the way of substative, long-lasting achievments.

That said, in the Bay Area, the long silence and indifference of the Reagan administration while people died horrible, AIDS-related deaths did not endear him to the local populace much.

― Michael White, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:21 (eighteen years ago)

When I was growing up in Santa Cruz, I thought that EVERYONE hated Reagan... Sadly, this was not true.

― schwantz, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:25 (eighteen years ago)

i was a teenager when reagan was president and i don't really remember much personal hatred directed towards him among the people i knew -- quite the opposite, actually, since i grew up in a heavily republican area. i do remember some people -- ok, mostly smart-ass high school kids like myself -- not liking some of his administration's policies, or being afraid that he'd get us all blown up in a global nuclear war (though that might have had as much to do with the day after than anything else). as for my immediate family, i think that my dad just thought that he was a bit of a dunce (my dad hadn't YET jumped over to the GOP, he even voted for mondale in 1984) and i don't remember my mother saying anything one way or another about him (whereas nowadays, she hates dubya about as much as i do).

even now, i don't really hate reagan himself -- though i strongly dislike most of his administration's policies, not to mention that the reagan administration paved the way for dubya. i also never thought that he was a dumb man -- i never thought that he was brilliant like, say, clinton or nixon, and i think that his ideas and thought processes were more, um, peculiar than stupid (e.g., i remember reading somewhere that he was SHOCKED when he found out from a KGB defector told him that his belligerent rhetoric and placement of long-range nuclear missiles had scared the shit outta the kremlin -- like, duhhhh). but i also thought that he played up the "i am a dumb/doddering old fool" as much for his political advantage as for anything else (which may be why he got away with iran-contra in the end), at least until his alzheimer's began to set in.

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)

ha, I was only in Santa Cruz for a year, and I also forgot the existence of the outside world

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:32 (eighteen years ago)

that should be "placement of long-range nuclear missiles in western europe)".

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:33 (eighteen years ago)

i was watching 'journeys with george' the other day and dubya seems like a really funny guy in a one-note way, he's adapted a weird deadpan sense of humor to play off his own awkwardness, and it's very endearing for the short term actually! but impossible to deal with if there are actually any serious issues to discuss. he just never should've run for president. he should've stuck with managing a baseball team, hanging out at the ballpark and goofing around. at this stage I feel sorry for the guy to be honest, because he's always been in way over his head.

however, i thought dancing around with the sengalese musicians was awesome. also making whatever gaffe in front of the queen = cool. i so despise the monarchy. why is she even here?

― daria-g, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:35 (eighteen years ago)

I don't have any trouble recalling a wealth of shitty things Reagan was responsible for, but it does have to be said that he currently benefits from hindsight's favorable comparison with the current catastrophically horrible administration. I mean, ANYBODY looks good compared to Dubya - he's achieved essentially nothing in 8 years, and caused massive damage in practically every area of policy.

and wtf daria I don't pity that asshole at all!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:36 (eighteen years ago)

xpost

bcz Americans love the fuckin monarchy (see Motion Pic Academy: Helen Mirren).

Reagan was not playing dumb. W sometimes does.

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:38 (eighteen years ago)

Reconstructing Ronald Reagan in the NY Review of Books

― mookieproof, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:39 (eighteen years ago)

anyway, i've never really understood what some folks find so likeable about dubya anyway. from the start, i thought that he was a militantly ignorant, spoiled frat-boy asshole. and certainly nothing since then has caused me to change my mind.

― Eisbaer, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:46 (eighteen years ago)

and wtf daria I don't pity that asshole at all!

Hmm.. I think what is happening here is, I feel differently than you do.

― daria-g, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:50 (eighteen years ago)

there was some poll in the wash. post express "do you care about the queen's visit" and it was like 65% "No" so maybe at least washingtonians don't care much..

personally i think for the next anniversary of whatever we should formally disinvite all monarchs from official state visits for ever and ever. they want to come visit they can pay & do their own thing like everyone else

― daria-g, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:53 (eighteen years ago)

by the next anniversary of whatever we might have our own oligo/monarchy.

― Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:55 (eighteen years ago)

I'm just kinda mystified that anyone would pity the most powerful person in the world, particularly when he's almost certainly a criminal and a mass murderer.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

xpost re: oligo/monarchy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military-industrial_complex

― daria-g, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:57 (eighteen years ago)

i are a bleeding heart liberal, unfortunately

― daria-g, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

but hey at least we both hate the English monarchy!

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 20:59 (eighteen years ago)

glad things like this can still bring us together

― Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:01 (eighteen years ago)

You dare besmirch the good name of the sovereign? Why, I've a mind to tax you without allowing you representation, you colonial scoundrels!

― chap, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:03 (eighteen years ago)

I guess my point is that there was probably a time pre-Reagan where it seemed more acceptable for the Born Again crowd to vote Democrat.

not probably, absolutely. evangelicals voted for Carter (a born-again himself) in huge numbers.

― gff, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:11 (eighteen years ago)

i've been hunting for a pic from '76 of this supporter with a sign saying "I'm for J.C." and there's a picture of Carter with a flowing Jesus beard and halo.

― gff, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:13 (eighteen years ago)

i think people really discount the extent to which fundamentalism came from within the party, and how the republicans have had a large religious voting block mobilizing since well before reagan

― deej, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:18 (eighteen years ago)

"do you care about the queen's visit" and it was like 65% "No"

I suspect the Queen would be pretty happy with this result... It's likely a good deal better reception than she'd get most places in the UK.

― Keith, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:34 (eighteen years ago)

There'e a great quote in today's NYT story about Da Queen -- something like, "“I think we love it that they have a queen,” she said, explaining the American fascination, “and we’re glad that we don’t.”

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:51 (eighteen years ago)

I've been an amateur Reagan buff for years now. Something about the man's genial, determined imbecility (he wasn't just doddering; he simply didn't want to HEAR something he didn't agree with) is so American. He's really Jay Gatsby incarnate -- that handsome surface hiding a vacuum. No wonder Edmund Morris said the hell with it and wrote a fictional biography.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 21:53 (eighteen years ago)

W is a "front man," yes, at least in the non-David Lee Roth sense. Yes, he's very likeable in Journeys with George, until you do something (as Pelosi did) to give lie to his patina of sweetness and light, to reveal what he's a front for. But after a while it'll be all good and he'll be back to [s]playing lightheartedly on your weaknesses[/i] being benevolent, god-inspired mr. matchmaker.

Reagan was personally meaner than Bush, but less effective because of his age, and more authentic in his soft-focus cowboy (and acting) role. That his administration is seen as less horrible now than Bush's by many is in part because he produced no major war but also in part because his was a less imperial than merely neglectful presidency and because towards the end his more moderate advisors took over.

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:06 (eighteen years ago)

strangely, Bush is smarter than Reagan, at least in certain respects

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:06 (eighteen years ago)

i saw a note somewhere today that HRH whatsername has only visited during GOP admins, dating to Ike

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:07 (eighteen years ago)

strangely, Bush is smarter than Reagan, at least in certain respects

which respects would those be?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:13 (eighteen years ago)

re: the queen's visit, i despise all monarchies equally, to be fair! i don't get why australia and canada don't throw it out

― daria-g, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:19 (eighteen years ago)

which respects would those be?

well, pretty much all of them, probably. funny, though, that while bush is relatively smart, politically, reagan still beat him without thinking much about it.

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:21 (eighteen years ago)

Or Belize!

xp

― Pleasant Plains, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:24 (eighteen years ago)

Reagan seems to have been more politically adept (co-opting Tip O'Neill, for example) but they both seem to have/had that functional illiteracy thing goin on.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:37 (eighteen years ago)

Reagan was also far less of an idealogue. Conservatives like to forget that he raised taxes in 1983 ("revenue enhancements," in James Baker's immortal formulation) and "saved" Social Security in 1986.

Bill Clinton's a better Reaganite than Dubya!

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:38 (eighteen years ago)

Reagan was dealing with a further-left Congress

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:39 (eighteen years ago)

I think the ideologue point is a good one though - Reagan didn't hew blindly to any core principles, he just kinda muddled his way through things and made up rationales as he went along. By comparison, Dubya is a one-track-mind kinda guy ("1) outdo Daddy, 2) ummmm....")

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:40 (eighteen years ago)

yes, but Bush doesn't act on ideology nearly as much as he (probably) wants to

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:42 (eighteen years ago)

yeah maybe I shouldn't conflate basic psychology with ideology when it comes to Dubya.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 8 May 2007 22:43 (eighteen years ago)

Reagan diary excerpts in Vanity Fair, via Perrin

WELL, as Reagan would say with a nod of the head, he figured out which "option" was suitable for Central America -- turn the region into a mass grave via death squads and terrorist groups like the contras, while engaging in secret and illegal arms deals with various actors, Israel and Iran among them.

Stirring stuff, Graydon Carter. Can't wait for Bin Laden's journals, Saddam's to-do lists, and Pol Pot's favorite Khmer recipes. At least you had the good sense to show Christy Turlington doing yoga. State terrorism goes down smoother when eye candy is attached.

― Dr Morbius, Thursday, 10 May 2007 15:26 (eighteen years ago)

<i>Whatever else can be said of the Reagan administrations, they did essentially accelerate the fall of the Soviet Union.</i>

i recall reading an interview with one of gorbachev's advisers, who was asked if the reagan doctrine had helped to prompt gorbachev's reforms. the response was basically "no, in fact they made it harder for us, and they gave the hardliners in the kremlin more ammunition."

― J.D., Friday, 11 May 2007 05:57 (eighteen years ago)

anyway, i've got the feeling reagan will go down in histoyr as a "great president" (ugh) and bush will just be one of those odd figures like nixon or wilson who gets equal parts dislike and half-embarrassed apologists. but hey, GROVER CLEVELAND was supposedly one of the most despised presidents ever during his lifetime, and who knows a thing about him now?

― J.D., Friday, 11 May 2007 06:00 (eighteen years ago)

didn't you lot (by which i mean the population of america) vote regan THE GREATEST AMERICAN EVER?

― acrobat, Friday, 11 May 2007 08:12 (eighteen years ago)

I was going to say: Was that poll on ILM?

― Mark G, Friday, 11 May 2007 08:40 (eighteen years ago)

you just said it

― acrobat, Friday, 11 May 2007 08:42 (eighteen years ago)

oh yeah.

― Mark G, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:09 (eighteen years ago)

GROVER CLEVELAND was supposedly one of the most despised presidents ever during his lifetime, and who knows a thing about him now?

only president to serve two nonconsecutive terms and had a baby ruth that died

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 09:12 (eighteen years ago)

http://bp2.blogger.com/_t6rV3U9ZEHM/RkR1B5pd01I/AAAAAAAABIU/sb_eDQdv8NI/s1600-h/bushpoll.gif

― Dr Morbius, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

Reagan = Mr. Smith Goes to Washington if Jimmy Stewart had happily signed on with the machine

George HW Bush = Mr. Smith Goes to Washington if the machine had made Jimmy Stewart Official Director of Boys'-Camp Operations

Clinton = Mr. Smith Goes to Washington if Jimmy Stewart had brokered a deal to build a massive state-of-the-art boy's camp next to the dam, to be funded with graft proceeds from dam land sales

George W Bush = Mr. Smith Goes to Washintgon if Jimmy Stewart hypnotized the senate into funding a nationwide boys camp for indoctrination and militia-building

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:12 (eighteen years ago)

RJG with the Grover schoolin'!

― Pleasant Plains, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:29 (eighteen years ago)

nine years pass...

what's the best book about the Reagan administration? looking for something like Perlstein's NIXONLAND...

― flappy bird, Sunday, 5 February 2017 22:16 (eight years ago)

I think I want Alfred to write one.

― El Tomboto, Sunday, 5 February 2017 22:18 (eight years ago)

The sequel to nixonland is about reagan. "The invisible bridge."

― Treeship, Sunday, 5 February 2017 23:26 (eight years ago)

Edmund Morris' DUTCH, despite the awkward device. Morris is a helluva stylist, and his analysis is excellent.

Thomas Mallon's FINALE, a novel published in 2015, is an eerie transcription of his conversations.

― The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 5 February 2017 23:38 (eight years ago)

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