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American perceptions of the English

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This is prompted by the guy who was covering the Queen's visit on CNN.

WTF?

Presumably this insane caricature (who, it looks like, bases his entire personality on Dick Van Dyke's performance in Mary Poppins) is a global news network's idea of what their viewers believe the English to be. Where the hell did they get him from?

I'm speaking as an Englishman who in no way resembles that guy - I'm black, my accent does not veer haphazardly between mockney and some hideous middle-class idea of what aristos sound like, my speech is not pepperded with stupid cliched aphorisms and there's absolutely no way I'd ever be gauche enough wear fucking white tie simply to comment on the Queen (for fuck's sake!).

I did see Jon Stewart on The Daily Show using this to torture John Oliver. Which was amusing. But then I started wondering whether this was the image that a vocal and idiotic minority of the English present in the US. And whether this corrosively parochial idea of Englishness (it's Southern and middle class - I'm neither) is what England's "branding" abroad has become.

This isn't about patriotism or jingoism, I've no place for either. I'm just wondering that's all.

So how are the English perceived in the US?

― Stone Monkey, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:27 (nineteen years ago)

Bad tippers.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

was it lily allen or lady sov who informed her american fans that "we're not all like the queen" or something totally unpatronizzle like that?

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

Ooh this is gonna be good.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:28 (nineteen years ago)

"English perceptions of the English" would be a much more interesting thread

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

the way the Queen said "fascinating" to that NASA dude under her breath without moving her mouth at all = why Britain is THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

England's 'branding' abroad = Hugh Grant, surely?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

uh - repressed, pedantic, speech is not peppered with stupid cliched aphorisms...

― jhøshea, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:31 (nineteen years ago)

You forgot 'sexy accents'.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

Watch this thread for persistent inability to distinguish British from English - mostly by English people

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

Can I just start posting cat pictures now?

― Masonic Boom, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

A perhaps illustrative story (perhaps not):

My boss's dad is from London, somewhere in the East End, moved here in the sixties. As my boss tells the story, his dad's accent was so strong that he was having trouble being understood by people where he was living at the time (in this case, Las Vegas), and this was causing him no end of grief.

So he decided he would learn how to speak English in an American way. He did this by obsessively listening to Johnny Cash records.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:32 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.movieactors.com/freezeframes-12/NorthByNorthwest46.jpg

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

the way the Queen said "fascinating" to that NASA dude under her breath without moving her mouth at all = why Britain is THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH

-- blueski, Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:31 PM (1 minute ago)

hahaha OTM

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:33 (nineteen years ago)

^^^ lol, i did subconsciously similar when i moved to london:/

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

oh, i didnt do that, i was referring to neds post

― 696, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

Family guy. Drive-by arguments.

"Oh Reginald?....I disagree!"

― franny glass, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.britishpictures.com/photos/pics/howard.jpg

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

http://home.online.no/~s-antons/pages/Mainpages/Biography/Biopics/Friends.jpg

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

He did this by obsessively listening to Johnny Cash records.

i want to speak like Lee Hazlewood.

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&gbv=2&q=%22lobsters+on+the+pier%22&btnG=Search&meta=

― blueski, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

lol, i did subconsciously similar when i moved to london:/

You have to, because there are so many lazy cunts here who can't be arsed to understand regional accents

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

http://entimg.msn.com/i/150/TV/sept04/TheWire_elba-west_1_150x225.jpg

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:36 (nineteen years ago)

I mean if you want the lowest common denominator stereotypes that some strawman American has about some strawman Brit it's probably either some stodgy, monacled aristocrat called Lord Havisham or a poor wench along the lines of Liza Doolittle, or at best a Monty Python character, but we're not cretins here.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f257/daydreambelievers/TheMonkees542.jpg

― alkie cat, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

OHHH GIRL
LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO ME
OH GIRL

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Answer to question:

http://www.gomog.com/images/Kingralph.jpg

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:38 (nineteen years ago)

Never said you were.

But are we projecting this image ourselves because it's nicer than the real thing?

― Stone Monkey, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:40 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.chemungvalley.org/8.25.1a.redcoats.475.JPG

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:41 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.thismoment.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/blog/banksy.jpg

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:42 (nineteen years ago)

I understand why UK people on this board get a little miffed when they feel like the Americans have weird notions of them -- we're all here talking, after all -- but is it really so strange that some Americans in general might have a slightly caricatured view of Britain? We kinda do this with everywhere, after all, and the balance of trade for pop culture tends to run from the US outward, so other nations see plenty more of the US than we do of them.

Keep in mind also that some of the biggest and most formative chunks of British culture that penetrate the US mind are centered on the Victorian era (or older, running all back to Shakespeare), which doesn't really help with the caricature element.

There are presumably also some Americans who think of the French wearing sailor shirts and carrying baguettes and whatnot, but if it helps at all, I'd guess that most people just have this as one element of their imagination, and if asked seriously would probably say they know the French aren't actually all wearing sailor shirts (just like Americans, dear Europe, aren't seriously or generally selling guns to 13-year-olds and shooting one another in supermarkets).

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:43 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.footnotetv.com/picftvww11.jpg

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

Watch this thread for persistent inability to distinguish British from English - mostly by English people


Well, to get it out of the way:

Scottish
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/48/Willied.png

Welsh...uh...
http://www.jiminycritic.com/images/notting_spike.jpg
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/dreamworks_skg/the_terminal/catherine_zeta_jones/termpreg.jpg
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/hexenal/tom-jones.jpg

I guess...

English are all evil villains of some sort. Or snobbish dandies.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:44 (nineteen years ago)

Watch this thread for persistent inability to distinguish British from English - mostly by English people

i'd genuinely like to hear some (sensible) american perceptions of the scots (and welsh, and northern irish, and indeed irish); esp how these fit into their respective images (if they even see a difference?) of "england" and "britain".

xpost: heheheh, thanks gukbe :)

― grimly fiendish, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

who is that first welsh guy i want to be his boyfriend

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:45 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I was talking to my friend about the Showtime series The Tudors last night, and she was wondering why on earth the US has made a show about Henry VIII. The Brits would never make a series about Thomas Jefferson, surely.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

I'd genuinely like to hear some (sensible) english perceptions of the scots (and welsh, and northern irish, and indeed irish); esp how these fit into their respective images (if they even see a difference?) of "england" and "britain" - that would be novel

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

Presumably this insane caricature (who, it looks like, bases his entire personality on Dick Van Dyke's performance in Mary Poppins) is a global news network's idea of what their viewers believe the English to be. Where the hell did they get him from?

You should see who they put on the TV whenever a tornado hits the South.

― Pleasant Plains, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:46 (nineteen years ago)

The Brits would never make a series about Thomas Jefferson, surely.

THE WORLD IS OUR ENTERTAINMENT OYSTER

― Mr. Que, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:47 (nineteen years ago)

Most Americans view the English as either Austin Powers, Anthony Stewart Head, or Sid Vicious.

Having visited London in the late 1990's, I can safely say that this impression is entirely incorrect. Most English are either denim-clad, toothless old men who try sell "ekkie" and "hash" to scraggly youths with oversized backpacks or they are motionless and painted gold/silver.

― kingkongvsgodzilla, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:47 (nineteen years ago)

A friend of mine was convinced for a while that Catherine Zeta-Jones was Tom Jones's daughter.

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:47 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I was talking to my friend about the Showtime series The Tudors last night, and she was wondering why on earth the US has made a show about Henry VIII. The Brits would never make a series about Thomas Jefferson, surely.

-- Gukbe, Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:46 PM (1 minute ago)

WHASSUP STUPID JERKSH

― That one guy that quit, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

We made a film about him
http://www.lovefilm.com/lovefilm/images/products/7/21227-large.jpg

― Stone Monkey, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:49 (nineteen years ago)

Most English are either denim-clad, toothless old men who try sell "ekkie" and "hash" to scraggly youths with oversized backpacks


That was exactly my first experience in Camden.

― Gukbe, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

Whoa - Sally Hemmings is listening in on oversized white people.

― Hurting 2, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

General American perception of the Welsh = "the who?"
General American perception of the Scottish = gruff, growly, fighty
General American perception of the Irish = perception/stereotypes of American Irish (mostly loving) mixed with vision of home country as happy rolling-green thatched-roof Emerald Isle, good place to get married

― nabisco, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

I don't think 'my' generation of people really view the Scots as particularly different to the English at all.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:50 (nineteen years ago)

My generation of English people, that is.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, I was talking to my friend about the Showtime series The Tudors last night, and she was wondering why on earth the US has made a show about Henry VIII. The Brits would never make a series about Thomas Jefferson, surely.

Part of it's that the US doesn't have history that goes back as far as Henry VIII.

― jaymc, Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

That was exactly my first experience in Camden

You actually found some English people in Camden?

― Tom D., Thursday, 10 May 2007 16:51 (nineteen years ago)

Skipping 182 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.
starry

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

stah-ree

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

oh right

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

"I didn't think the English LIKED women, from the way they talk"

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/041209/142618__wanda_l.jpg

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

see, cause i distinctly remember someone telling me it rhymed with "gary"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

gah-ree

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

haha, yeah, it rhymes w/ gary but not w/ vary

― RJG, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

Okay, brass tacks time.

AdamRL once gave me a slack-jawed askance glare for introducing Gareth to someone as being "from London" (where Gareth was living at the time).

Now I perhaps knew Gareth was not born in London but he was indeed visiting from London, but to Adam (a Jew! from Londontown, England!!! REALLY!!!) this was a bit of a faux-pas.

Is this regional pride? Or something else at work?

Ever since that episode I teased AdamRL a few times for claiming "Oakland" or "San Francisco" instead of "Berkeley" (where I believe he still lives). Not that I get why exactly, it just seemed like proper thing to do.

Note: I haven't done this for a year or two.

Here's the part of the post where I tell the story about how when visiting Uxbridge and hitting a pub (or was it club?) and some girls thought that my (and my fellow American travelling companion's) American accents were faked almost convincingly, as if an American accent is a bit of an exotic attempt for west Londoner blokes to pull?

― Steve Shasta, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:48 (nineteen years ago)

Did it work?

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

no one can escape the wake of steve shasta

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

[Removed Illegal Link]

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:54 (nineteen years ago)

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0705/this_is_england0502.jpg

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:55 (nineteen years ago)

"wot? wot? tittays, wot!"

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/03/24/rickygervais_wideweb__430x322.jpg

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 14:59 (nineteen years ago)

The mystery solved: marry, merry, Mary

― Nasty, Brutish & Short, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:10 (nineteen years ago)

I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WHO PRONOUNCES "MARRY" AND "MARY" THE SAME WAY YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE WHAT AMERICANS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 11 May 2007 15:14 (nineteen years ago)

sometimes when you fuck up a tag then the rest of the thread is italic

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:15 (nineteen years ago)

http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/mhillebrandt/2005/06/07/beans_on_toast.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:16 (nineteen years ago)

http://www.andythevikingfordham.com/images/gallery/andy_x.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:24 (nineteen years ago)

sexy

― jhøshea, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:25 (nineteen years ago)

uh hey i should just pop in to say that while i generally agree with the schef's exasperated shouting she is pretty much talking about the northeast and us midwesterners do pronounce those words more or less the exact same way.

that said the pronunciation tangent makes no sense at all because there are a billion accents and dialects in both the uk and america so unless you just want to call this "recieved pronunciation vs flat pseudo-midwestern american newsreader accent" it will continue to be entirely pointless and confusing.

― ghost rider, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:29 (nineteen years ago)

i make no distinction between mary and marry :(

― sleep, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:34 (nineteen years ago)

recieved pronunciation vs flat pseudo-midwestern american newsreader accent" it will continue to be entirely pointless and confusing

qf fucking t.

― grimly fiendish, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

My New Jersey-bred friend pronounces the name "Taryn" as Tavern, and "Karen" as Cavern. I am quite sure he also distinguishes Merry, Mary and Marry.

― Bnad, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:40 (nineteen years ago)

most English people insert an 'r' sound between them (without realising they're doing it) and just link the two words together.

Sgs was amazed that the phrase "she put her bra on" elides the last two words into a very definite "braron". It's most obvious in Eastenders - "'ere, wiw ya lendarand wiv me bags lahv" and such and such.


x-post - "Taryn" is a name?!

― Mark C, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:51 (nineteen years ago)

when i was 3 i used to say "bagloshes" instead of galoshes and and "baglasses" instead of molasses

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:52 (nineteen years ago)

btw I am an authentic cockney so my phonetic Eastenders spelling is 100% kosher.

― Mark C, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:55 (nineteen years ago)

x-post - "Taryn" is a name?!

I know a Kiwi girl called Taryn. Mind you, Antipodeans, like Merkins, seem to have big love for Making Names Up Out Of Bloody Nowhere, so who knows?

In which bit of the UK doe people pronounce merry, Mary and marry in any way similarly? That really got me.

I mean, cough bough tough dough through, k'know? Shit is just different.

― CharlieNo4, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

flat pseudo-midwestern american newsreader accent


This is the accent I've been accused of having (though the profession was 'sportscaster').

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

My friend Taryn pronounces her name "terrin", although all her English mates call her "tarrin". Go figure.

― CharlieNo4, Friday, 11 May 2007 15:58 (nineteen years ago)

national healthcare does not translate into quality dental care

― Edward III, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:05 (nineteen years ago)

AdamRL once gave me a slack-jawed askance glare for introducing Gareth to someone as being "from London" (where Gareth was living at the time).

Now I perhaps knew Gareth was not born in London but he was indeed visiting from London, but to Adam (a Jew! from Londontown, England!!! REALLY!!!) this was a bit of a faux-pas.

Is this regional pride? Or something else at work?

Ever since that episode I teased AdamRL a few times for claiming "Oakland" or "San Francisco" instead of "Berkeley" (where I believe he still lives). Not that I get why exactly, it just seemed like proper thing to do.

This reads nice and funny, but neither story is exactly true, is it? Your powers of selective recall are akin to my mother's.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

What's also funny is that Gareth asserts that I'm not even from London, and he might be right.

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:09 (nineteen years ago)

you're right, you're from Scotland. my bad.

― Steve Shasta, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:11 (nineteen years ago)

=D

― admrl, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:11 (nineteen years ago)

I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WHO PRONOUNCES "MARRY" AND "MARY" THE SAME WAY YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL COMPLETELY BATSHIT INSANE WHAT AMERICANS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

-- the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, May 11, 2007 11:14 AM (1 hour ago)

uh

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

Yeah, I pronounce 'em the same way as well.

― Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

unless I'm gonna get a cryptic response that implies I misread sarcasm in your post and am completely fucking ridiculous, which I halfway expect

― Curt1s Stephens, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

We watch Friends.

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:53 (nineteen years ago)

The only American accents I can think of that would do that slight differentiation (may-ree vs. maaaa-ree) would be certain New England ones with big flat As to use. And of course hardly any of us would ever say "murry," unless we were tripping up the emphasis on either "Marie" or "Murray" or getting SUPER St. Louis / Atlanta / Dirty South about it. Like Murphy Lee might say "she got murried," who knows.

Robert Benchley wrote something once complaining that English speech was too musical, and that everyone sounded like they were singing all the time.

― nabisco, Friday, 11 May 2007 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

dickvandyke.jpg

― the schef (adam schefter ha ha), Friday, 11 May 2007 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

Kurt Cobain sounds like he's singing mary, marry on some Nirvana song.

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

it's buried

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

My ears are kinda blocked.

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

we'll i mean he's singing in that Pacific Northwest/Aberdeen accent so i can't say i blame you

― Mr. Que, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

http://images.scotsman.com/2002/11/18/en1811hindb.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:07 (nineteen years ago)

We're terrible :(

― jel --, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:09 (nineteen years ago)

us midwesterners do pronounce those words more or less the exact same way.

I had a buddy from Kansas City who pronounced "Mary Ann" as "Murryin'".

― Pleasant Plains, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

http://members.lycos.co.uk/jamiethehut2/henman/tim_henman15.JPG


http://www.blather.net/snackboxdiaries/archives/tim-blank.jpg

― scott seward, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:39 (nineteen years ago)

haha

― mookieproof, Friday, 11 May 2007 17:40 (nineteen years ago)


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