have people always been unsympathetic to shy people?

there was a recent thread about introverts that went into this in great depth.

ah. didnt know. link?

this old thread might be useful Hell Is Other People At Breakfast - Caring For Your Introvert

morrisseey to thread

mmooriisey i mean

there was an article about this in yesterdays daily mail

dont read the mail.

i did the mail crossword last night on a nightbus.

didn't finish it

there's always a copy of the daily mail round gareth's house

that's because he gets up at 6am every morning to steal it from my letterbox.

Trouble is, it's the same copy - 24 April 1998.

I am definitely a) shy b) introverted c) narcissistic but even though these overlap I don't think they're mutually inclusive.

People have frequently mistaken my shyness and occasional social unease for aloofness. I don't think I'm particularly narcissistic, I (generally) totally want to be sociable and engage with people, I just sometimes get a bit tongue tied and withdrawn when I'm in a situation which is out of my comfort zone.

I don't think the article linked in the original post is particularly unsympathetic, the one bit that mentions it gives decent advice.

People sometimes mistake my arrogance for shyness :(

Also, lol at "mmooriisey", but why?

>> People have frequently mistaken my shyness and occasional social unease for aloofness.

Yes, this happens to me too. Although sometimes it is aloofness, I suppose. Depends how much I've had to drink!

I dunno, I'm not particularly sympathetic w/r/t shy people but I do love those who believe themselves awkward but persevere regardless -- esp the blurter-outers. Those with little-to-no filter between brain and mouth are my peeps. So yeah, probably everyone has their preferences, maybe it's just that you never hear from the shy people about theirs.

Those with little-to-no filter between brain and mouth are my peeps.

This is me to a T. And this is why I have become more of a social introvert as I've grown older. Not having to deal with the damage my mouth and social ineptness can cause has made my life much happier.

when shy people get roaring drunk in an attempt at "not being shy", that tends to make people unsympathetic.

ouch.

when shy people get roaring drunk in an attempt at "not being shy", that tends to make people unsympathetic.

... people who aren't roaring drunk themselves that is

I'm sorry, have we met?

So somewhere, recently, someone linked me to this web forum.

http://www.love-shy.com/lsbb/viewforum.php?f=1

is the concept of being "love shy" universally accepted? Reading these boards made me so, so sad. So much hatred toward women and animosity; a lot of these dudes have had terrible experiences and have come to associate all women with rejection. Is there a female equivalent for this? Like, becoming a lesbian because of a bad experience with a man? I don't know.

This makes me think of that guy who shot those women in a gym a while back.

Not to say that the "love shy" are like that guy, but that some of the people in that forum sound like that guy's blog.

Yes, completely. Some of the dudes on the forum range from tame to seeming on the verge of harming someone. SKEEERY!

Also they all bang prostitutes I've noticed.

Oh god that site. I couldn't even bear to open any of the topics. Looks a lot like WATMM general discussion except without the obsessive love of electronic music to stop them from spending all their time spinning out into violent misogyny all the time.

Even though I am sometimes brutally lonely at times, even looking at things like that make me realise there are worse fates.

nerd misogyny seems to be increasingly common, sadly. feels like the internet has made possible self-reinforcing cycles where kinda-awkward people get all their information about what women/sex/dating/etc. are like thru electronic media, then use those same media to seek out other kinda-awkward people who share their sad fucked-up view of the world and commiserate with each other.

read to "Heres what women REALLY think of us" and closed my tab

It is hugely self reinforcing, I guess.

But in both ways. Because the kind of nerd misogyny clusterfuck of forums reinforces *my* beliefs (for better or worse, mostly worse) that huge swathes of men (especially the ones that are still single) are virulent misogynists - which is perhaps a misandrist belief in itself, but when it gets reinforced so frequently, it becomes harder to shake it.

well, when your sample size is a forum for screwy sad single men on the internet...

yeah srsly: not the majority! there should be an unblockable pop-up window on every weird niche-zone site online reminding us of that.
so, most of the internet. i'm fine with that.

I only visit Craigslist personals for the laffs. Am I cruel.

xp

You are now entering ILM!
Please remember that not every
forum on the Internet is full
of Steely Dan obsessives!
Drive carefully!

http://www.love-shy.com/lsbb/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6794

Don't know how anybody could be unsympathetic to this krew.

exactly! xp

And that's only the guest-viewable subforums...I wonder what the private ones are like? No, wait, I've read soc.men, so I can imagine what they're like.

"Soc.men", is that where Cameron Carr and The Amazing Randy hang out?

I remember seeing a picture that details the making of this. Looks like it'd feel good, but I'm too lazy and don't feel like putting that much work into making a fake vagina.

ILM is not that bad, actually - by comparison to some of the electronic music forums I hang out on. I mean, honestly. It's not like these places are advertised as hidey holes for screwy sad men of the internets - when you log onto somewhere thinking you're just going to get a fun place to talk about old acid and you end up getting exposed to blasts of misogyny that makes ILM look like Feministing.

And then they go all "OMG you're a GURL" and start with the rapey shit (and I am not kidding or exaggerating with the "rapey shit" - this one dude actually said to me "OMG, if I ever met a girl who loved Ziggomatic 17, I would totally end up in jail for raping her") and then they're all "oh, no girls EVER like electronic musics" and I'm like "um, actually, loads of girls like electronic music, but they're not likely to hang around on a forum where they think that they'll end up violently sexually assaulted for their taste in music!"

Sorry, I don't mean to go all thread derail. But it's not like I'm hanging around on weird fringe dating sites or anything, just forums I thought were supposed to be about music.

So yeah. I need a little pop-up that says "ILM: really not that bad most of the time" or something.

explain what you mean by "insulating the sock with another sock"

Sockpuppeting 101...

Also, the RealT0uch gadget on that thread is o_O

back to title topic, this is something that's always bugged me. I'm an introvert, but a comfortable one -- I socialize quite a bit, but I absolutely NEED my "me" time or I go crazy. what bugs me is that extroverts, or even people who aren't squarely in one camp or the other try to 'convert' you and get you to 'lighten up' and 'quit being anti-social' (which btw, anti-social doesn't mean avoiding contact, anti-social is actually a serious social disease that like serial killers have!)

i mean granted i may get why someone does that at a party where generally you go to be around people, but even at work people don't get why, in the elevator, i just don't want to talk to them!

I'm not an introvert at all which is why I have no one but myself to blame.

I'd assumed nearly everyone here would be introverted.

You stick your dick in it and basically two conveyor belts and a contracting ring move. Real touch differs from other stand alone units by being connected to a porn viewing experience also. The belts are programmed to move in accordance with whatever is taking place on screen.

oh no

I heard the difference described as being that extroverts are energised by being with people and sapped by their own company; for introverts it's the other way round. That seems right - I can do either, but being in company tires me out and I can only do it for so long. It just takes more effort, there's so much more to keep on top of.

The opposite thing, being worn out by your own company, might well be right, but I can't get my head round it at all.

i can't do big parties, for one. I prefer my gatherings to be 10 people or so at most. also I hate it when I get invited places where I know absolutely nobody except the person that invited me, and then they ignore me. it's hard for me to just walk up and talk to a bunch of people who know each other when I have no clue who they are.

don't think the blossoming-in-a-group thing is so odd - more people = higher chance that it'll be easier to converse w/ at least one person out of the group. i sometimes get anxious about one-on-one situations (i mean, yeah, dating, but even sometimes w/ friends i'm not super-close with)

I prefer to talk to more than one person at a time. And I like clowning around in groups. I guess I was born to post on net forums.

dunno... i'm a sci-fi-reading geek (and in my youth was a very enthusiastic D&D-playing dork), but us genre types tend to think we have some kind of lock on geekdom. otoh, i've noticed that "real literature" & guitar tech geeks can be SUPER hardcore and sometimes sneer mercilessly at us mere sci-fi types. internecine geek warz.

that to CGLDI's x

thank you graph, gotta love vaguely smart people's constant need to go "hey, i was bullied in school, but now i am proud to be a geek, and am reclaiming the word 'geek' to mean COOL! but only if you're just like me. those other geeks are really uncool, they deserved to be bullied. i call them something else, and as you all know how smart i am i'm sure you will all agree."

this is me exactly. love people, love parties and meeting new people, always want to be with friends. but on the other hand can't deal with people, hate parties and anything unfamiliar, always want to be alone in my apt. how can both be true? this may not be what you meant tho...

This sounds pretty close to what I meant, yeah. I don't cope with the schism very well.

"hey, i was bullied in school, but now i am proud to be a geek, and am reclaiming the word 'geek' to mean COOL! but only if you're just like me. those other geeks are really uncool, they deserved to be bullied. i call them something else, and as you all know how smart i am i'm sure you will all agree."

tbomb. regret endorsing the chart, cuz it is so mean-spirited and defensive, but i did read it all the way through and laugh a couple times. [shrug]

ah no, i did find it funny in places! graph just reminded me of seeing various other examples of the above, is all.

i am a loser because i don't know the difference between "chart" and "graph". perhaps if i find some etymological pretext i will graduate to creep.

what chart and accompanying write-up fails to note is that non-loserish dorks are probably the best people in this group. they tend to be gregarious, non-judgmental, playful, funny, kindhearted, etc. i.e. hufflepuff. geeks vs. creeps is a very fine line, and both can tend to the snide, arrogant, self-involved. speaking as a sneer-inclined geek myself...

is it condescending to say that i feel a bit sorry for people younger that me who grew up with the internet as a convenient replacement for social interaction?

younger than me - i'm in my mid-30s and i didn't grow up having the internet as a crutch in the way a surprising number of people i meet that are in their 20s did

Not condescending, but maybe missing the point a bit - I'd've loved this place when I was in my teens.

In my late 30's - probably wouldn't have used forums, but could really have used the internet as a source of information.

i'm not talking about internet as source of information, but as a replacement for in person social interaction.

don't honestly know anyone irl who uses the internet as an interaction substitute. more as an adjunct, which is basically what i do. i mean i spend a lot of time here, but still see my friends & go out a bunch. maybe i would've been an internet hermit in my youth if i'd had that option, though. prior to my mid 20s, i found most social interaction incredibly painful....

more i think about it, more likely that seems. would have stayed in, mutated, never dated, wound up posting abt homemade vagina substitutes on shy sites. thank god for no internet.

My entire relationship with my 8th grade boyfriend took place in aol private chat rooms. We barely spoke in class.

that's kinda what i'm saying - like I was a lot more socially anxious and awkward when i was a teenager and in my early-mid 20s than i am now. But when we were teenagers, the internet as interaction substitute was not an option, so one had to get out and deal with real people. For me, it's something that's easier the more you do it - part of the anxiety (mine, anyway), is the unpredictability or unsureness about what to expect, but the more experience i had socializing in particular ways, the more predictable it became and i was able to have realistic expectations and function on autopilot to some extent.

For me, it's something that's easier the more you do it - part of the anxiety (mine, anyway), is the unpredictability or unsureness about what to expect, but the more experience i had socializing in particular ways, the more predictable it became and i was able to have realistic expectations and function on autopilot to some extent.

oh yeah, exactly the same for me. took a lot of trial & error work to pry myself out of my shell, but i felt like i had no other choice. it was either that or just be alone and unhappy all the time. and life wound up being a lot less scary/painful than i'd imagined. suppose the shy and strange can much more easily avoid this process nowadays, without having to settle for "alone and unhappy". maybe it's a good thing? i dunno.

yeah, i dunno either about the internet as social crutch being a good or bad thing. I doubt it's a simple dichotomy though.

there is a lot of pressure to be confident in new york is all i know

i try to work the BOLDLY SHY angle

lol surm - i was just talking to people about that last night at the bar - that pressure to be confident and "hustle" that seems to be a lot more intensive in NYC than in the Bay Area

'boldly shy' when executed poorly is basically 'aloof' tho - thin line

(he says, speaking from experience)

yeah! it's kind of annoying it's like, u always have to be FIERCE or SMART or SEXY

i'm like, o hi i'm just going to be nice and fun and you will like it

Haven't read this thread, haven't read that board, but clicked that link and the first thing I saw was a very distinctive username that certainly used to belong to a notorious Stylus commenter. What does that say.

You folks are most of the people I interact with on a regular basis, but that's a consequence of my particular situation (working alone, no children, odd interests for a 40-year-old woman, etc. ).

some of the men on that board are really depressingly obsessed with posting about "hotties" and angry about the very existence of "fat, ugly chicks", despite being in a situation you might think would force them to lower their standards

(and various women are even berated for not having lowered their standards, either for talking to one of these guys who is clearly too hot for them despite being on the forum, or on one thread a woman who persevered with a middle-aged virgin who didn't compliment her or get intimate with her for 9 months is told off for not realising that now she is old and saggy she couldn't possibly expect anyone to do either)

makes me think that what has really put the angriest posters in that position, more than shyness or looks or the "femisphere" (really!), is that the rest of us outside the top 5% of hotness find other attributes to judge attractiveness on, but these people for some reason have not

ps not saying all shy/lonely guys are like that, i've known enough sweet shy guys who seem to have nothing but bad luck romantically, through no fault of their own; just hope that any "nice guys" who've ended up on that board are not converted by the more sociopathic members

the rest of us outside the top 5% of hotness find other attributes to judge attractiveness on, but these people for some reason have not

at least potentially otm. i have known guys like this, and it is a very gross way to be. plus dooms you (apparently) to being forever angry about all the amazing hot women who thoughtlessly refrain from your embrace.

The message board also reminds me of this sort of docu I watched on youtube about Real Dolls – a lot of the guys in it were dudes who'd just decided they didn't have what it takes to attract a real women. They weren't like really bad-looking or creepy (well, one guy was creepy), but they'd just had too many experiences with rejection and decided dolls were the way to go. How do you decide that you'll never be loved? Even in my most socially awkward depressio days of playing The Smiths'"Unlovable" on repeat, I didn't think it was really, intractably permanent. Maybe it is like the romantic equivalent of learned helplessness.

plus, even if i did decide that i'd never be loved, physically or emotionally, i can't see myself buying and fucking a plastic person

Abbot, how long have you got? I mean, I'm in that position (even if they aren't exactly making plastic IDM dude dolls for me to buy) and, well... there's a 1000 post thread about how I got this way, over the years...

where does this idea that you'll never have sex or be in a relationship OR be randomly fancied again come from?

Oh my god, that's epic. FWIW Kate you seem a lot more well-adjusted & realistic about human nature than the guys on that board. I hope you don't think I was trying to draw a line between you & them or you & the Real Doll guys. (The male Real Dolls would fit right in in a Chris Cunningham vid tho)

Sorry to bring Real Dolls into this.

No, it's OK, Abbott, I didn't think you were (female loneliness and desperation seems to take less... violent forms than male.)

If Chris Cunningham made a Real Doll of himself (or an AFX monster) I would totally buy it, mind you. ;-)

It's nearly time for the annual revive of that thread. Except, having finally got off SSRIs, I am no longer feeling quite the black hole lack of physicality - wow, for the first time ever, I can read that thread and think "hey, I'm actually feeling better about myself than I did this time last year!"

Now I seriously can't stop thinking about how much I want a Chris Cunningham made AFX Real Doll (tm).

You have made my evening. ;-)

no...problem?

Dear boss, I really don't like being looked at like an idiot and responded to with "okay?" (said in a tone of voice like I've told someone something they didn't want to know) when I explain to you (at your request) that the reason I left work early is because I was having an anxiety attack and needed to get away from people.

thx

Oh christ, yes, I know where you're coming from there. I've also gotten the post-attack boss chewout of "well why didn't you tell me," which...gah. It does not work that way.

It's even more annoying when you work somewhere that's supposed to be sooo "liberal" and "laid back" and they react to something totally human understandable with confusion.

err human *and* understandable

so i live in a large student house.

guy on the stairs (not a housemate, have seen in passing): "oh hey we are having a potluck downstairs, you should come!"

me (on way to shops): "yeah!"

how could i go? i do not know any of these people! i don't have the energy to shuffle up to the edges of conversations and laugh brightly and introduce myself to people i don't even know over and over again for an entire evening! i like people well enough but, you know, i don't have a lot of conversation to make.

is this... shyness? is this something else? should i do something about it?

have 2 beers then bust in there

haha no way, i have writing to do tonight (also drink does not make me all that gregarious).

sometimes i have really long, enjoyable conversations with people in shops and then i realise that i can't go back to that shop again because they might be expecting another conversation.

:( if you go back and they seem chatty just explain you have things to do

I have writing to do as well, I will end up watching the cricket and doing little writing, ah me

i don't know how to explain i have things to do! it always seems like one is making an excuse to get away, even when it is true.

have lots of heavy-looking bags about your person maybe?

just get some scotch and benzos (not too many, obv) and give it yr best shot

it's just the fear. overcome the fear. you're probably aweseome. And thus will have more than one conversation's worth of awesome to express. Hence, get in there and at least have a dialogue with the people you are going to have to share some space with over the indefinite horizon. Worse comes to worse, you establish common ground and some basis for stairwell smalltalk. For the best, everything beyond.

Remember it's a potluck so take something or get sneered at.