Ron Paul & Kucinich - Can Candidates Who Speak Bitter Truths Ever Win in a Democracy?

not while the majority is in denial. "i don't have a problem! i can stop when i want to!"

Though I always think it'd make a nice little sitcom to see one of these guys win and be utterly befuddled.

"OH, Dennis!"

Probably not, but in both men's cases, their ideas are so far outside of the norm in many areas that they're essentially unelectable. Especially Paul, who has a fetish for the gold standard and some weird dream of essentially destroying the world economy.

lol, where's ethan?

The real bitter truth about the Iraq war is that if we leave Iraq things will get much much worse. McCain is really the only viable candidate willing to say that, and yes, it's going to hurt him in the polls.

Sorry, I'm wrong about that - he's not the only one.

Dunno, but Biden may prove that candidates who speak biter truths can't win.

Bitter truths tend to manifest themselves as "too much yell, not enough sell"

Ron Paul is less 'bitter truth' and more 'complete insanity.'

A lot of ideas that get passed off as bitter truths are actually comfortable half-truths.

Or just comfortable lies, even.

dude what are you talking about

"sound money"

"all we need to do is build a wall along our border"

etc.

The real bitter truth about the Iraq war is that if we leave Iraq things will get much much worse. McCain is really the only viable candidate willing to say that, and yes, it's going to hurt him in the polls.

-- Hurting 2, Sunday, June 10, 2007 3:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

well, yeah, sort of. i think what's most galling about the situation in iraq is that it is now abundantly clear that we went in without any plans for an exit. so, now, any exit at all will be uncomfortable, and possibly disastrous, but we've got to do it because we can't just hang out there forever

^^^^ capt obvious

My feeling at this point is that we should stay until late 2009/early 2010 - new, hopefully more competent and more internationally respected president in the White House, given time to develop a proper exit strategy and rebuild international support.

And most of Ron Paul's stances aren't really "bitter truths" so much as "insane libertarian whatever". But he's able to call the occupation what it is, which is such a major issue of itself that it's attracting progressive support.

Re: Iraq -- y'all might want to read this.

And guys like Don Neiwert have been watching the guy since his pro-militia days in the early '90s and writing a lot of good stuff, especially how the guy still talks about the New World Order and other cracked-out John Birch batshittery.

Ron Paul may or may not be a racist -- and arguing about it is likely to end up nowhere. But what is unmistakably, ineluctably true about Ron Paul is that he is an extremist: a conspiracy theorist, a fear-monger, and an outright nutcase when it comes to monetary, tax, and education policy. The more believers and sympathizers he gathers, the worse off the rest of us will be.

Billion a week: better spent here or abroad?

ok so what's wrong with kucinich's ideas exactly?

also not seeing how paul's ideas are especially more "insane" than the idea of doubling guantanamo bay or forcing every citizen to have a national ID card

They are more insane.

No one is arguing that Kucinich and Paul are the only insane candidates.

I still have my Dennis Kucinich 2004 button.

i wonder what it's like to actually be legimately excited about a candidate that actually has a chance of winning?

it's odd because i guess that puts me in the extremes, yet i'm probably a moderate in a lot of ways.

i think candidates who speak bitter truths could win, but you have to find a way to frame the bitter truth as blaming someone besides the general populace. you gotta get yerself some of that reform!
m.

I agree with Ron Paul on almost every issue, except that he's pro life, but even then he would let that be decided locally, which I'm fine with. It's really depressing that he's the only candidate to be talking about things like blowback and even being shouted down by idiots like giuliani for doing so.

If he were the republican candidate, I would even consider voting for him over say, Hillary. Although, I really couldn't ever fully trust the Republican party.

The truth is though, he probably wont be able to raise the huge sums of money necessary to continue a campaign, as he's been far too anti-corporate. That and his views all line up and his voting record has been consistant, which Americans don't trust.

also, I overheard a soldier who was on a few week leave from Iraq say this about the current situation:

"I think it's reached a point where, no matter what we do, it will not get any better or any worse."

Also, I think I sounded too strongly in favor of Ron Paul there. I'm more just excited that there's a candidate with a set of beliefs that even line up.

The truth is though, he probably wont be able to raise the huge sums of money necessary to continue a campaign, as he's been far too anti-corporate. That and his views all line up and his voting record has been consistant, which Americans don't trust.

Congressman Ron Paul’s donations have moved up - not by hundreds of thousands - but by millions as a result of his debate performances and groundswell of support on the Internet and in New Hampshire, observers close to the campaign say.

The move is especially impressive since as of March 31, 2007, he had perhaps $500,000 on hand (see candidate estimates below).

FMNN had previously reported – after the GOP presidential debate in South Carolina - that candidate Ron Paul’s (R-Tex) donations, large and small, had nearly doubled.

http://www.freemarketnews.com/WorldNews.asp?nid=42336

Now observers close to the campaign are revealing – with some astonishment – that donations to the campaign in recent weeks have pushed the total up to perhaps $4 or $5 million.

“That’s a huge number at this stage,” says one observer. “That starts to put him in a position where he can compete – state by state, anyway – with the major candidates.”

Someone like Mott Romney has raised a great deal more - over $20 million - but the numbers a pretty impressive nonetheless.

In regards to his racism, I actually read a Ron Paul quote the other day about how racism is a "collectivist" idea because you'd have to see people as groups instead of individuals in order to be racist. Or something.

This actually gets to the root of why I could never be all out libertarian. You can shout about individual liberties and how the free market is going to save the world all you want, but there are people starving in inner cities right now, and changing to the gold standard and eliminating medicare and the public school system and whatever the fuck else wont "work itself out" for them.

maybe. but some might argue, sincerly, that the poor might be better off w/o the state (the fabled left-libertarian). libertarians and conservatives who talk about the 'free market' aren't typically vocal about the poor because thats not their demo. and the same politicians who like to talk about the free market happliy hand out corporate welfare.

i'd like to see an argument for why paul or kuchinich is crazy. does having radical political beliefs make a politician crazy? maybe if they sincerly thought they could win they'd be crazy. or do you think they aren't self aware? and whats wrong with being crazy? whats the alternative? america has a long tradition of eccentric politicians.

When Brits ask me questions like, "What do people on the left in America think?" my answer is: "There aren't any, unless you count a few media groupies and policy wonks."

lol

I'm a Brit and until this thread I had barely heard of Ron Paul and the only thing I knew about Kucinich was that he was married to a hot redhead Englishwoman. But now after a great deal of research I can say that I love this photo.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/38/Forbes-kucinich.jpg

so then, saying that black teenagers are "incredibly fleet footed" and therefore deserve to be tried & sentenced as adults & ranting about how bad it is that the U.S. is off the gold standard (a position that is as credible in mainstream economics as creationism is in mainstream biology) is "speaking a bitter truth"?

And going on about how Al Gore secretly wants to control all your guns, or that the only thing wrong with cross burning is that it might damage some property?

also, I overheard a soldier who was on a few week leave from Iraq say this about the current situation:

"I think it's reached a point where, no matter what we do, it will not get any better or any worse."

Wishful thinking.

I don't necessarily think Kucinich is crazy, and even Paul might not be capital "C"razy, but neither seem very realistic in their ideas.

Do we remember the bitter truth that guaranteed Walter Mondale's fate in an '84 debate? "President Reagan will raise your taxes; so will I. He won't tell you; I just did."

Americans prefer MAINSTREAM fantasists.

Also lets face it, even if, say, eliminating the federal income tax were a good idea (which it isn't), it would never get support in congress. Or perhaps Paul will have a magic scepter that will allow him to instantly bring his *radical ideas* to fruition once he's president.

I've noticed "non-crazy" candidates also propose things we all know will never happen.

i stopped taking kucinich seriously 3 years ago when i found out 3 things about him: (a) that he led cleveland into default when he was mayor there in the late 70s; (b) he wants to establish a "department of peace" (which seems to be as much about his attraction to shirley maclaine-ish new-age jibberish than any real or intelligible critique of the american foreign policy establishment); and (c) he was anti-choice for 20+ years until (how convenient!) he ran in the 2004 primary when all of a sudden he became pro-choice.

anti-choice

I really wish ppl said "pro-abortion." or included Tasters' Choice.

xpost ya that's when i took my kucinich pin off my bag

Paul may not be any crazier than Bush.

Believing that you can re-make the middle east overnight by force and that it will be easy is about as out-there as believing we can just bring all our internationally-stationed troops home and seal ourselves in a ziploc bag.

xpost

as there won't ever be a Dept of Peace, and there will be legal abortion as long as it provides *WHEW* relief to deadbeat straight men who find condoms so inconvenient, how are either of those relevant?

MR. RUSSERT: You say you're a strict constructionist of the Constitution, and yet you want to amend the Constitution to say that children born here should not automatically be U.S. citizens.
REP. PAUL: Well, amending the Constitution is constitutional. What's a--what's the contradiction there?
MR. RUSSERT: So in the Constitution as written, you want to amend?
REP. PAUL: Well, that's constitutional, to do it. Besides, it was the 14th Amendment. It wasn't in the original Constitution.

what a rebel! he's against the war!

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/fandom.png

exciting news for me! i gave $25 a few months ago just cuz i like having his voice out there.

-- artdamages

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

anyone else want to out themselves as supporters?

-- artdamages

A blimp? A blimp!

Imagine.. the mainstream media is mesmerized as the image of the Ron Paul blimp is shown to tens of millions of Americans throughout the day (and throughout the month). Wolf Blizter, stunned and as if in a trance, repeats the words “Amazing, Amazing”.

As GPS co-ordinates stream to the website a map shows the Ron Paul blimp’s location in real time. The local Television stations broadcast its every move. The curious flock together and make a trip to see history in the making. Emails with pictures are sent, then forwarded, then forwarded again. Youtube videos go viral and reach tens of millions of views. Ron Paul becomes the first presidential candidate in history to have his very own blimp. The PR stunt generates millions upon millions of dollars worth in free publicity, and captures the imagination of America.

Please join us in our goal to raise $350,000 to make and fly the first ever Presidential Blimp in history.

http://www.thetalentshow.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/ronpaulblimp2.jpg

Can someone in the know or at least versed in semiotics plz to decode/explain wtf the "EVOL" thing means?

http://www.w-fenec.org/photos/2005/rock/sonic_youth_evol.jpg

If nothing else, it always makes me think of "Expressway to Yr Skull", which is cool, but not when the song is associated with such unsavory types.

EVOL = EVIL for people who can't spell

evol is love spelled backwards

SONIC TRUTH! BITTER TRUTH!

burt stanton OffTM

I'll "out" myself as a RP supporter (I did so months ago, but since you asked...). I'm even volunteering to help with the campaign.

ok, then read on:

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/01/ron_pauls_explo.html

Paul's alliance with neo-Confederates helps explain the views his newsletters have long espoused on race. Take, for instance, a special issue of the Ron Paul Political Report, published in June 1992, dedicated to explaining the Los Angeles riots of that year. "Order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks three days after rioting began," read one typical passage. According to the newsletter, the looting was a natural byproduct of government indulging the black community with "'civil rights,' quotas, mandated hiring preferences, set-asides for government contracts, gerrymandered voting districts, black bureaucracies, black mayors, black curricula in schools, black tv shows, black tv anchors, hate crime laws, and public humiliation for anyone who dares question the black agenda." It also denounced "the media" for believing that "America's number one need is an unlimited white checking account for underclass blacks." To be fair, the newsletter did praise Asian merchants in Los Angeles, but only because they had the gumption to resist political correctness and fight back. Koreans were "the only people to act like real Americans," it explained, "mainly because they have not yet been assimilated into our rotten liberal culture, which admonishes whites faced by raging blacks to lie back and think of England."

What is this quote from?

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397-a3c7-4720-ac15-4532a7da84ca

re: EVOL - there's a line from a Diane di Prima poem:

talking love, talking revolution
which is love, spelled backwards
(April Fool Birthday Poem for Grandpa)

"bitter truths"

And Paul is out too

did it via status update

http://www.angryflower.com/paulvk.gif

Still pulling 'em in Pennsylvania:

Mr. Malcolm --- Thanks for the note. I know the majority of your readers probably think we (Ron Paul supporters) are off-the-deep-end crazy, but those who really try and understand Congressman Paul begin to see that he only wants what is best for our country. I cherish our United States, as I imagine you do as do most of your readers.

Thanks for being honest and acknowledging the material fact that McCain is not winning Pennsylvania 99% to 1% like he SHOULD be if he were the party's clear choice.

It's truly a saddening year for my Republican Party.

Ron Paul supporters not only have big hearts for Congressman Paul, but also for our country.

Meanwhile...

The goal of Paulville.org it to establish gated communities containing 100% Ron Paul supporters and or people that live by the ideals of freedom and liberty.

A little plotting never hurt anyone.

Republican Platform Committee's online suggestion box raped and pillaged by Ron Paul supporters.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/07/disaffected-lib.html

Says Bob in Clemons, North Carolina: "We need to abolish the Federal Reserve and go back to the gold standard. Not just any gold though, I heard about this stuff, pure-strain gold that has been around since God created the universe. That's what we should base our currency around since it is so close to God."

I'm gonna miss paultards.

"we don't need the FDA. If companies sold drugs that killed people, people would stop buying the drugs!"

Well, he's got a point.

DAVE!

(And be sure to read the comments.)

in my current neighborhood (vestal) there are stenciled, wooden signs on electrical poles reading "ron paul 2008" about once a mile. i want to stencil a rebuttal

palin makes ron paul look like a lil' angel.

http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/ron-paul-and-the-conspiracy-of-history/

Who needs Ron Paul when you have Rand Paul?

RON PAUL HAS A SON NAMED RAND!?!?!?!?

RAND!?!?!?!?

short for Randall maybe?

heave ho's political insight sadly missing now, another voice of dissent silenced!!

― gershy, Sunday, January 6, 2008 3:34 PM (4 years ago) Bookmark

so then, saying that black teenagers are "incredibly fleet footed" and therefore deserve to be tried & sentenced as adults & ranting about how bad it is that the U.S. is off the gold standard (a position that is as credible in mainstream economics as creationism is in mainstream biology) is "speaking a bitter truth"?

― Eisbaer, Monday, June 11, 2007 11:56 AM (4 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol @ how naive i was back then re the really vile racist shit in Paul's newsletters. remarking about the alleged fleetfootedness of black teenagers doesn't hold a candle to the stuff that has come to light since then.

The Fleet Footes

the Ron Paul superhero-ism gets more LOL by the day. every day someone I know talks about him (in a positive light) it's always...

"...the only man that can save the world's economy"
"...predicted what would go wrong 4 years ago, and has stuck to his message"
"...isn't afraid to tell the truth".

somehow when the topic comes up about how he predicted outlandishly devastating inflation after 3 years of the Fed's monetary expansion, and it didn't happen, they tend to have less answers.

You do not understand the underlying foundational issue. Ron Paul protects the rights of every individual. Whenever individuals are put into groups and given special rights and powers and not held by the same rule of law placed on individuals, the individual loses and Big Corp and Big Labor win. When you say, "thank goodness he doesn't have a chance of winning" you are saying "thank goodness the Republic and the rights of the individual do not have a chance." Please, think through the underlying Principle more deeply and connect with your heart to how precious and rare freedom is. We can use all the help we can get to save the Republic. RP 2012!

lolololol

someone please shop Paul's face on Batman's body

Outside the polls, students campaigning for Paul and Romney dueled for the support of their peers.

LU junior Braedon Wilkins, a local coordinator for the Paul campaign, organized about 35 student volunteers to man polling sites across Lynchburg. By 5 p.m., Wilkins had clocked ten hours at the Vines Center. His face was sunburned and his voice was hoarse from yelling.

“Real conservatives read the Bible, not the Book of Mormon,” Wilkins bellowed as a cluster of students entered the polls.

A smaller, quieter group hoisted Romney signs and chided the Paul camp for their aggressive tactics, preferring one-to-one conversations with undecided voters.

http://www2.newsadvance.com/news/2012/mar/06/ron-paul-wins-lynchburg-gets-strong-support-libert-ar-1745784/

Krugman looked befuddled and tried to explain why government involvement in currency is inevitable. But Paul proceeded to assert that loose monetary policy caused the end of the Roman Empire. It's not an easy worldview to engage with. Krugman, by this point, could do little more than try to suppress his laughter and insist, "I am not a defender of the economic policies of the emperor Diocletian."

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/paul-krugman-meets-ron-paul.html

http://i.imgur.com/7jEo6n0.jpg

somebody, anybody, pplans, karl malone, help me out here

http://www.michaelbickelmeyer.com/

Presidential candidacy as mid-life crisis. From the "Campaign Statement":

I just bought a bench press with weights yesterday, and in my spare time I plan on beginning to lift again. Before fall I plan to start running hopefully on a treadmil in my apartment and attain the distance of 3 miles in 27 minutes.

http://www.wellstonetheykilledhim.com/images/imghompagetop6.jpg

ok i feel bad now, this bickelmeyer guy appears to be unwell

http://i.imgur.com/ooDkhSD.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/svzc0Lo.jpg

Good grief.

http://i.imgur.com/GVmor8R.png

Parma/Parma Hts = RWNJ central in Cuyahoga County, along with Westlake