what is the point of trying to make meaningful friendships?

My two cents fwiw: the point is twofold - first, it is really depressing not to have people to share good times with - and second, friends who you support also offer you support in return.

Yes, it sucks when friendships die, for whatever reason. Sometimes they just need a break - and sometimes it is for a geographical reason. Sometimes other factors come into play.

I'm in a situation right now where I'm trying to figure out how to be a friend to someone who needs friends but doesn't know how to be a friend. It's not always clear what the right thing to do is.

Don't isolate yourself if you can avoid it; find another friend to talk to about it. And hang in there.

I mean... do I not know how to be a friend? Sometimes I worry that I get too close and ruin things that way, but I don't feel like that's the case in the situations mentioned.

So you have material for your emo band.

the point is to have people to drink beer with while making fun of tv

this has been the foundation of me and my best friend's relationship for 12 years now and it's never steered us wrong

xpost - I'd be surprised if you don't know how to be a friend; the person I'm having issues with has very serious personal and psychological issues that cause random bouts of viciousness. Most people understand boundaries intuitively, and you are probably one of them. It's probably not you in these situations; it is probably extenuating circumstances (distance, for example?)... which doesn't make it less hurtful.

I wish I had better advice/ideas.

thnx sara. i sort of realize that it probably has nothing to do with me, but there's this fear and anxiety that it does that just makes the whole thing worse.

You're welcome - hope it helps at least some.

table, I really really empathise with how you feel right now, for all kinds of reasons :( *hugs* dude. I've been that person who never turns up to events and hides all the time and a lot of my friends gave up on me too; the internet's been the only way Ive managed to salvage some of my friendships.

Theres a few people who I deeply care about and if they disappeared out of my life I'd be completely shattered and want to give up.

Long distance, of course, really makes it all the harder. I moved interstate many years ago so some dear friends I've lost touch with and it still really makes me sad sometimes.

Two points:

1. LDF is only slightly less difficult than LDR.
2. You may be able to resume these friendships when you are older. Don't burn bridges. (I recently found my best friend from the age of 19 after losing him for 15 years, and I'm so glad I did.)

i empathize very much with mr/ms table

oddly enough i also have a friend in philadelphia who i would also take a bullet for and then some, and we've been reduced to speaking maybe once a month... ive known her for 8 years now.

all i can really say is that people change. sometimes i find myself talking to her and putting the phone down for about 30 seconds while she blathers about something and nearly saying out loud, 'how did i ever stand talking to that person?' i have no idea if that's entirely on me or what, but i can say for sure that obviously we're not the same two people we were when we met. im sure she feels the same kind of way about me, probably

i meet a lot of people via the internet so i go through things like this pretty regularly... as in, becoming great friends, then gradually falling out of touch. all i can really attribute it to is your own personal changes and their own personal changes (i sound like a fucking health class teacher). i got really angry about this a while back, like i was just discovering that humans are only just exhaustible resources, like anything else. except they, you know, are humans.. and have more redeeming values than say, gasoline or twinkies.

Aw there, that's really rotten & it's happened to yrs truly many a time. Fuck, it hurts doesn't it? And jesus, has it really got to the point in this world where we can't express interpersonal pain without being "emo"? (Not a diss on you.)

But a bad thing to do IS get paranoid or blame it on yrself. Humans are mercurial and their whims, while often vexing and frustrating, are often impossible to parse. So trying to "figure it all out" has never worked for me, in fact it's been only an enormous, maddening stress; I don't know how it is from your perspective. You're not Encyclopedi Brown...it's not your job to solve it if they've decided whatever the hell they've decided or done, and you can't turn to the back of the book and get the answers.

I can sympathize with thinking it's not worth it to go & make friends. Every time I've set that out as a "to do list" item, it's just bizarre and never works. I tell myself "friendships just form organically," which is really the only way it's happened to me in the past. Sort of serendipitously. But it can also take a long time, too. I know that's probably not comforting.

I find it helps not to worry about super closeness evolving really quickly. Even if it's dull and inferior to your closer friendships, why not try to hang out with your last mentioned friend? Go bowling, go to a movie, out to lunch, drink at a a bar; at least get out of the house. A lot of times, even if it's not ultrahappygoodtimeclassicfunyeahyeahyeah, I've found at least getting out and doing something, especially with someone else, really helps stop the rut of sitting around and fretting/moping. Especially if it involves eating/drinking/aforementioned, which are all just inherently gratifying most of the time.

You sure have my sympathy & hopes! :)

Sorry you're therapist's outta town, too...they always seem to leave at the worst times. Buh.

It helps to make the first phone call, too. A lot of people feel just as crappy about not getting phone calls, hanging out is a lot more likely to happen if you initiate it.

hey table, i sent you an email, but it the computer kinda went spastic so not sure if it went through. let me know.

I sympathize, Table, I really do. I have gotten that kind of shit from several people, some of whom I just would never have expected it from. I think it's a mistake and misguided to blame yourself, though. I had this old friend who got me a job at his company recently and then strangely as soon as I got the job he quit responding to my emails and calls. I totally blamed myself and thought I must have said something wrong. But then he caught up with me later and told me he was having personal problems, he had decided to move out of state but couldn't find an apartment and broke up with his girlfriend of some years.

And as sad as it makes me to say so, I think sir wheeze is well OTM when he says people change. I have one friend now (well I think I do, she's not returned my calls lately despite being the one to keep our friendship going for years and years) and I just think "wow I have changed an awful lot since I met her...our worldviews are not nearly as close as they once were..." Once I told one guy friend of mine I just didn't want to talk to him anymore because I felt that for the last couple of years he was only being friends with me out of some sense of duty, that he really didn't care about me. He didn't do a good job of refuting that, and I let him go, gladly.

So to make a long story short, people change. It's weird that they do, and sad sometimes. But to immediately blame yourself is just not on.

I don't get it.

If the someone had a meaningful relationship with someone else, lost it, misses it badly and apparently would like to have it back, then that person should have some sort of clue as to the value of a meaningful relationship, since they value it enough to miss it and wish they still had it.

But even though 'the table is the table' admits how valuable and highly valued that relationship was, he or she (hard to say from the original posting) still can't see why such relationships should be sought. I am tempted to say, 'duh'.

So, table-table, at the risk of seeming insufficiently sympathetic to your personal pain, let us suppose that you were given a really nice toy for your birthday. You love that toy. You play with it, bring it to bed with you, take it your friends' houses and are "inseperable" from it. Then it breaks, or wears out, or gets lost, or stolen. You miss it something fierce.

So, would you have been happier if you'd never been given that toy to begin with, but instead had got some ugly mustard-colored underwear that didn't fit? Judging from your take on this relationship business, apparently you would prefer the bland nothingness of yucky underwear to a greatly loved toy you can't have forever.

Besides, if you don't do something rash and burn your bridges out of disappointment, you and this guy might resume your friendship sometime later. Provided you don't make an asshat out of yourself in the meantime.

ok thanks to all.

i guess that most immediately, i think that even making a link between a friendship and a toy is sort of stupid, and completely disregards the deepness of emotional connection that people can share. i understand what you're trying to say, but that isn't the best way of putting it.

i realize that a lot of great friendships slip by, and that it is better that i remember what those were about and continue than sort of say, "fuck friendship."

but at this point, so many have slipped by that have meant so much that i find it difficult not to be upset about it. upset enough to think about why i bother trying in the first place, and yeah, upset enough to write about it on the internet-- i'm not usually so candid.

It ocurred to me thinking on what you said that an old once-close friend of mine I've lost touch with and felt like I *wanted* to drift away from as we've both changed too much (as others mention above).

So that led me to wonder, have you broached this with said absent friends (if you have the chance to?). Maybe they would be really horrifed to know you feel so bad about not hearing from them, maybe they dont realise how much its getting you down?

that and i guess that it is worth mentioning that i have a few friends who i lost contact with who have re-emerged only a couple years later. i value these relationships quite a bit, especially because most of them involve tons of fun and intimate personal 'entanglements,' but the the immediacy of first losing them pained just as hard.

also to trayce: i try to make it apparent-- for example, about an hour after i started this thread, the philly girl called me and told me i should come hang out with her. first time in a while. she told me that i'd sounded really awful the other day when i talked with her (in a sympathetic manner, yknow).

but when dealing with people separated by geographical distance, it is a lot harder to know what is going on with them, and trying to explain myself to them is harder.

oh and rubyred, message is not in box yet. ?

also, eugh, work tomorrow.

Sounds like youre having the kind of sleepless night I did the other night over something very similar :(

this has been the foundation of me and my best friend's relationship for 12 years now and it's never steered us wrong

different needs for different people, jess. i have had one friendship evolve from this (or rather talking about books and *shit*) to one that helped me more than i ever expected it would. she basically turned into a rock i could lean on. (oh dear god, she obv didn't help me in the writing department.)

A friend once considered "inseparable" has, after a year of being in a totally different geographical location, stopped wanting or caring to talk to me (or almost anyone else we know

I hate to break it, but as I said: different needs for different people. A friendship is a relationship between two people. Sometimes we expect more of the other than that person can give. I am sure s/he considers you a friend but obviously not in the same way you do. Being a friend is taking a risk (just like in any other relationship) and sometimes needs/expectations clash. Don't give up on others because those friends deserted you or let you down. That'd be a vicious circle in which you end up completely alone.

And, let's not forget, finding/making new friends is extremely hard. Especially once you hit a "certain age". Well, that's what I discovered anyway. Once you are in a certain "routine" (married, kids,...) you are more isolated and seperated from occasions in which you can make new friends. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's definitely harder.

i go through this stuff from time to time, maybe lots of people do, theres not really a lot you can do. this is basically about self-esteem. you email someone, they dont respond, why? you're in on a friday night, something was going off, you werent invited, why? its 10pm they want to go out, you're not one of the people they call, why?

and it can be tempting to burn a bridge, but then its you thatll hurt, not them, but the opposite is to feel timid, charity case, waiting on other people

and this then is basically kind of a depression (and goes back to that other thread about pushing people away actually being a way of asking people to show they give a fuck)

dont wait on other people

ever

do your own thing, meet new people, make people want you around, not feel obliged. say no to people more. those people might bring you back into play, they might not. maybe you won't really be that bothered if they do or dont, later on.

sometimes, quantity is way better than quality (if you had 70 friends the whole time you wouldnt worry about this)

a while ago, i felt that a friendship was really one sided, and that i just hadnt noticed before (so i guess that was because everythign was going good for me, and then went into a period not so much, so notice things more), and i decided not to call her for a couple weeks, see if she actually noticed

3 years later i got a card saying she'd moved to london

by then, i couldn't even be bothered

anyway, i think what i meant to say, is that its ok to want to feel valued, but don't chase after it, do own thing (this doesnt even have to involve other people)

basically...NOTICE, LESS

i called an old friend last night actually, i havent spoken to her in a year or so, but ive never felt annoyed by that, sometimes its different with different people. i always admired her resilience in the face of trouble, family life of generic huntingdon disease, brother in prison, dad on the streets, no money, they usual stuff for a lot of people, which we pretend isnt the case anymore in our 'nu-rich' northern cities

first thing she said to me was "i thought you were dead, i was going to call your mum and see if you were dead"...made me laugh. im going up in a couple weeks, but i dont like staying there because the cat is so vicious. "oh dont worry about her, shes DEAD" (raucous laughter). one of the other cats, called John, is also dead now, but theres another cat, called John 2.

in all the time i;ve known her, i think she's had 5 cats called John

you know, why'll you're busy wondering why certain people aren't calling you, maybe you should call someone else, that might appreciate hearing from you

yeah, but the thing about that is, after a while you think "why am I always doing the calling? why doesn't anyone ever call me?"

thats what i mean, dont call! do something else. call someone who might be wondering why YOU never call

Sigh.

basically...NOTICE, LESS

Wise words from G there I need to learn to live more myself.

Tho of course one can't just switch noticing/caring off like a tap.

The don't call policy is a good idea but the end result is always the same: the other don't call, so you're alone (unless you call someone else). So in essence: good idea, just not in practice.

Yeah, it's kind of a nasty comedown when you try that trick, and realise that even when you stop caling or making the effort, the other person doesn't even notice or pick up the slack.

People move on. Lives change. It happens. Everything is change. It's a good lesson when you find the shoe on the other foot, when you have to leave someone behind.

It just gets harder and harder as you get older to make new friendships.

Also, friendships are like relationships. It's incredibly hard to make new ones if you come across as needy.

You may not even think that you're needy, but you can give off that kind of vibe without realising.

It's easy to say "you have to learn to live by yourself" but it is bloody hard to do it. Human beings are naturally companionate animals. I've learned but it's not like it's the ideal circumstance.

oh yea, im not saying theyll suddenly notice and wonder where youve gone. but...you know, its better than chasing after people!

but if you look at a green car all day waiting for it to turn red you'll have a long wait, and theres a blue car which isnt red either, but its blue, and you never thought about blue did you?

call someone who might be wondering why YOU never call

but it's THEIR turn ha ha

<i>It's a good lesson when you find the shoe on the other foot, when you have to leave someone behind.</i>

But don't you think this rarely happens, that you "have to leave someone behind"? I mean, in practice, I don't think people do this consciously, unless it's like "I can't be friends with X anymore because they're shooting up heroin" or "always hitting on my girlfriend" or whatever behavior has become unbearable. Most of the time isn't it a less noticeable fading away of interest in a person?

Well, sometimes it is simply that you think about a person and think about getting in touch with them, and it slips your mind, and suddenly you realise it's been 6 months since you even emailed them.

Sometimes you move away, and you just can't keep in touch as much as you like.

But then, I've had a experiences with former good friends who I have had to distance myself from, because their behaviour has become such that I can't understand the behaviour or the friend anymore. It's not as clear cut as "X is shooting up heroin or sleeping with my boyfriend" all the time - but they can still be damaging you or others. And it's been painful, kind of almost as painful as a romantic breakup. But necessary. And that has given a new kind of feeling for the people who have had to "friend break up" with me when I was out of control.

Gareth, I see the point, but it really can get to the point where, if you don't "chase" people, you don't actually have friends any more. At all. And it's not just one Friday night that you spend wondering why your friends haven't called you to go out for a drink, but all of them.

And yes, it's annoying to feel like you're always the one who has to make the effort - but it is better (with some people) to make that effort and keep the friendship, than to have no one at all.

And then there's the other half, which we were talking about on Wednesday, that a huge symptom of depression is pushing people away from you, feeling that they "don't care" - often with the misguided impression that if they *actually* cared about you, then they would kind of pull you closer. You can't always spot this behaviour in yourself. And you also REALLY cannot count on other people to tell the difference between "pushing you away because of being depressed" and "Y is being a cunt/dick."

I think some people are pretty lousy at being friends, which doesn't in any way mean they're not interesting or lovely people, and there are all sorts of psychological issues that might make otherwise socially competent lovely people impossible to befriend (because they have boundary problems, or you become a "trigger", or whatever). I also think that people between the ages of 13 and 35 cut and run when friendships get "weird" far more than kids or people over 35 do, possibly because real heartfelt friendship feels more important than good times when you're a kid and you recognize that you aren't actually going to be forever presented with a buffet of interesting people once middle age approaches, so you'd best cultivate the relationships that are important for you.

I cut off or was cut off from a bunch of friendships in my 20s, because that's what one does -- it is surprisingly which of them have made some sort of come-back lately, possibly because the first non-drug- or accident-related deaths have started. Certainly the really close, non-toxic friendships have made at least cameo reappearances, some fucked-up folks are less fucked-up now, and I don't find myself missing the messed-up ones.

And I also made a very close new friendship with someone in their early 20s at the beginning of the year, one of the first really close friendships I'd made in years, and have just been friend-dumped out of the blue -- with wisdom and age, I feel less confused and humiliated than I would have 15 years ago, but it doesn't make me miss my damn friend any less.

And I also have asked myself the "what is the point?" question in the last couple weeks, but conversations with some of my friends from way back who have returned to my life in some way answers that question.

And you also REALLY cannot count on other people to tell the difference between "pushing you away because of being depressed" and "Y is being a cunt/dick."

I can be quite bad at keeping in contact with people, so I tend to lose touch with friends occasionally, and so I generally am quite comfortable getting back in touch after a long time, whereas some friends can be a bit put out by it.

mines complicated by the fact that i have a bad habit of collecting friends that ive either fucked or wanted to fuck, when it might have been better to let those people go

Oh, don't even bring sex into it, that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

The other thing that is sad but true is that lifestyle changes affect friendship levels. It would be nice if they didn't, but the fact is that they do. It's nice when your friends all go through the same big changes at the same time, but the fact is that they don't. And you or they can get left behind.

I mean, things like the first partnering up, marriage, having children, getting a mortgage and a job you can't walk out of - these are things that change your entire set of priorities. It's hard to have a really close friendship with someone whose prioritites haven't gone through the same zen-paradigm shift as yours have - and it's hard to stay friends with someone who has been through one you haven't. I'm sure some people do manage to keep their friendships close through these things, if there's enough of a history and commonality. But my life has been so fractured that that kind of a history is rare.

That said, once you get into your late 30s, it's true, some of the historical friendships come back.

thanks for advice and accounts. in some ways, i feel like i'm calming slightly.

in other ways, not so much. i cannot wait until i'm in my late 30s for these friendships. the idea of such makes me nervous.

i sent the email again!! hope it got thru :/

You have NO IDEA how quickly your late thirties will sneak up on you.

A long time ago, a friend told me that he was a terrible friend, because nobody could rely on him. He distinctly tried to avoid attachments to people. We're still good friends-- nay, we're better friends than we were when he told me this. But is this the way? To remain emotionally uninvested in people?

Ack, I am this friend. I used to be such a social person but life has dealt blows and my own struggles with mental health have completely changed me. I am not the person I was 10 years ago and can't have the same type of friendships.

Now I can only maintain a couple of good friends at once. And even then it's a level of sociability that is pretty low by most people's standards. I just don't enjoy hanging out/going out much anymore. Once a week is about all I can handle. I used to fight this and force myself to be more socialable but I've given that up and tried instead to come to peace with what makes me happy instead of what I think I should be.

That said the various friends I have had are usually there for catching up when I do get in touch and I'm always happy to hear from them. I've moved a lot and found people who were great friends in one city fade from my life when I move on. That's just how it is. For me anyway.

I almost revived a friend thread the other day b/c I find myself missing people from my past. People who just didn't fade out but burned bridges with their exit. I've renewed friendships with people like that in the past couple of years and it's always been good. The friendship might not be as close as before but we've found ourselves more mature and more willing to forgive whatever it was that drove us apart. I wish I could do this with others but some people aren't as amenable.

but I've given that up and tried instead to come to peace with what makes me happy instead of what I think I should be.

I totally understand this Sam, I've become the same. I had to, it was the only way to cope.

about the whole why doesnt anyone call me/should i call them thing: that's just excessively self-conscious. i don't think there's very many people who DON'T think that way or go through that or whatever. which goes back to the old "you'd mind less what people thought of you if you knew how little they minded you" line.

Without friends, life wouldn't be worth living! There are degrees of friendship, I spent my entire life travelling or moving and now as an adult it means that I am good at keeping in touch or remembering to contact people. I appreciate casual friendships, I enjoy intense friendships, I like making acquaintances. That's not to say that I don't get lonely, I think everyone has had a boring Sunday where the phone hasn't rung or the inbox has been empty. It also doesn't mean that I don't miss those that I have lost contact with/fallen out with. I'm currently still trying to get over forcing myself to drift apart from one of my best friends, it was negative and horrible towards the end.

There are times where making friends or keeping in touch can be hard. Nathalie is right in that people change, I know I have. It's trying to accommodate people without 'selling out' or changing who you are drastically from person to person that is the real test I find! Basically I could imagine growing old alone love-life wise but without friends? I can't even bring myself to think of such an awful thing.

In short: I <3 friends. And my little ponies. And sunshine. And moonbeams in a jar etc etc But seriously, friends are great. I'll stop now.

Also the sir weeze is completely OTM right there.

And my little ponies.

Just so you know, Kv, this is why I don't call you anymore.

;-)

I now have horrible images of the hair thread pony.

<i>Without friends, life wouldn't be worth living!</i>

Um, hello, haven't you realized that this whole thread is actually about people who have few or no friends and are miserable about it? Thanks for the support!

Well the thread title does ask "what is the point . . .of meaningful friendships?" She was giving what she thought was the point.

I guess (sorry, kv). Just seemed like a pollyanna-ish response considering everything - like those people who just say "What have you got to be depressed about? Smile! Be happy!"

Well I disagreed too but you know, whatever floats your boat. But then I did say upthread I've gotten to the point where I don't care too much about having friends so obv. that's sentiment is not shared by all.

She? :) xpost to Ms

Sorry. That was an error. Just replying to the pollyanish of the statement. ;)

I've always been someone who has a small number of very close friends and therefore not that many people I can just call up and go for a drink with or whatever, so I can relate to this situation. I've often ended up at a loose end because of it. But it was mostly my own fault for not trying to be better friends with people who were good acquaintances.

It was the My Little Pony thing wasn't it?

Yes. That's kind of suspect all together.

I'm glad my gender has been corrected!

Mitya, I am really sorry, I obviously failed to pick up on the thread's direction. I was just answering the question as I interpreted it. Sorry all. The last line was meant to take the whole pollyanna crap out of the post, I realised it was all a bit sickly sweet.

I am now going to revive the little pony thread. I can't believe I come off as a fan here!

I also didn't mean to kill the thread.

I've always been someone who has a small number of very close friends and therefore not that many people I can just call up and go for a drink with or whatever, so I can relate to this situation. I've often ended up at a loose end because of it. But it was mostly my own fault for not trying to be better friends with people who were good acquaintances.

Hello, are you me? Though I do have a few good friends I can rely on if I need them, I don't see them socially that much. That may be an accident of geography, or of having other commitments, or generally not being arsed, or a combination of all three. I tend to find nowadays that it takes an "occasion" to get us together, I can't actually remember the last time I phoned any of my friends just to go out for a pint. I do find myself at a loose end more often than I generally should, but it bothers me less and less as I get older, so I never actually think "oh, I'm bored, perhaps I should phone X and see if they want to do Y", but that's partly because I think they're off having more fun elsewhere and I'll just be disappointed to find out that they are, and they didn't ask me.

(which they probably wouldn't think to, because I feel very much in the acquaintance category rather than the friend one, but that's probably my fault for not making more of an effort to jump over that gap)

It often does take some kind of occasion to get us together, although it's usually something like "it's saturday and we haven't seen each other in a while", it's still usually only once a month or every 3 weeks or so I see my friends, which sucks, but we're all spread out over London/Essex now, so it's not that convenient. But then I don't even see my friends in Edmonton which is like 2 miles away that often. Although they did call me up the Friday before last at 11:30pm to invite me out! I went, didn't get home til 5am. Good times :)

hey guys, thanks for talking about this with me/each other. i feel a lot better today, and though i'm still kind of "wtf, where are my friends," i'm beginning to realize that a lot of the anxiety and paranoia is just me being excessively self-conscious.

also, it's helped thinking about it from these friends' perspectives. some of them are in their own mess right now and aren't trying to be shitty friends, and i feel like others of them just don't like thinking about the distance that separates us-- too awkward, too painful. when we're together again (fingers crossed), i'm sure things will be good if different.

that said, i think it will still be hard for me to make meaningful connections in the future, but perhaps that is only because right now, things are sort of bleak.

This thread's been helpful. I picked a fight with my best friend about a month ago after he rattled off the names of his groomsmen and didn't include me. Mortified, I waited two weeks before chewing him out. He was genuinely shocked, mentioned all the weddings of childhood friends in whose weddings he was nothing but a guest. "But I was your BEST friend!" I kept insisting, like I was six again. For years I've pegged him as a Gatsby-esque pesonality: charming, very good looking, but essentially a vacuum who needs to be filled by more striking company.

We saw each other a few days after that fight at a funeral of another pal's relative; we were polite but avoided each other. Last night we hung out again over drinks and the company of other friends, and quite naturally, we fell into our old groove, talking and laughing for about an hour. As we were shaking hands to leave, he says, "We gotta talk soon," which was, of course, encouraging.

The moral, I suppose, was posted upthread: basically...NOTICE, LESS

i feel like others of them just don't like thinking about the distance that separates us-- too awkward, too painful. when we're together again (fingers crossed), i'm sure things will be good if different.

Totally! I recently went to visit all my buddies up in Idaho who I hadn't seen for a year, and couldn't even talk to on the phone as I don't have one. Not everyone likes communicating via AIM/email/letter, and I was convinced 'OMG this will be an awkward, heartbreaking hell.' But of course it wasn't; it was perfectly chill and wonderful. And it makes the times apart that much easier to know that things'll be that fun & great again the next time you see them.

The moral, I suppose, was posted upthread: basically...NOTICE, LESS