Vegetarian vs. Vegan

If you are a vegetarian you will not eat anything that is an animal or fish. If you are a vegan you modify this by not eating anything derived from them either, for example dairy, eggs (so bread) etc. It is hard I imagine.

Vegetarians believe that Factory Records stopped being good with the release of Young, Popular & Sexy (FACTUS 17), although most of them will concede the excellence of several tracks on that record ("Kuff Dam" is the only Mondays song worth saving for many vegetarians; "Party Line," Stockholm Monsters' swansong, is fine and poignant no matter what you eat). Vegans believe that Factory remained an interesting and productive label clear through to the Steve Martland's Crossing the Border and the unreleased "Laugh" single by the Adventure Babies. I am a vegetarian, but I rather see the vegans' point.

eggs (so bread)

You crazy Americans and your eggy bread.

oh crap so i am no longer a vegan?

"Laugh" was crap and everyone knows it.

Well, as I say, I'm vegetarian, but the vegans I've talked to about it get pretty passionate and usually resort to petulantly posting images of the back cover, to wit:

http://www.cerysmaticfactory.info/images/facd335_2_450.jpg

where do vegans who do not care (ie don't know nothing) about factory records fall

Impossible by definition.

i know some jains who are way into crawling chaos

I like this vs. In the war between the vegetarians and the vegans, we ALL win.

in before vag puns

Wait - I'm an American and what is this about there being eggs in bread??? That is pretty insane unless we're talking about Challah or some kind of dessert "bread" with sugar in it.

bread very often has whey in it.

I dunno. It came up a while ago and a few Americans (Ally was ringleader, I think) were adamant that bread should have eggs in.

Vegans are from the Vega system and use sophisticated gill arrays to absorb life-sustaining CO2 from the impenetrable fog of their homeworld's atmosphere. Vegans also consume vast quantities of raw minerals which they grind to dust with their root-like mandibles.

Vegetarians are a quasi-religious sect from Vega who believe that the Vegan Jesus was not literally the offspring of a vibrating five-dimensional cosmic membrane but rather just a very good-looking Vegan man who lived an unfortunate life. They are generally ridiculed by the population at large and have established many colonies in other solar systems to escape the painful daily insults and property vandalism.

I am a vegan, it's really awesome. I know all sorts of secret vegan handshakes.

Did you know the amount of grain it takes to feed a single meat and cheese filled cow could feed a family for three days? earth first!

http://www.jimnshelle.net/sunybank/archives/hippie%20day%202004%20(2).jpg

I recently started eating fish again for the first time in ten years and it's been pretty weird. I always hear stories about people switching back and loving it, but so far I've been either ambivalent or somewhat grossed out. I might go back to being a full-on vegetarian, I think.

My girlfriend doesn't eat meat, but she does eat fish, so she gets shit from all sides of the spectrum.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a243/xOnexTruthx/xveganmilitantx.jpg

freewheel knows no vegan handshakes

vegans are liars

i ordered a tofu dish at a chinese place and it had bits of pork in it, but i at it anyway.

Impossible by definition.

-- G00blar, Saturday, July 21, 2007 4:01 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Link

Vanishing into a puff of logic.

xxpost

That's Cretans

thetans are liars too

I've said before on other threads, but it's hard to understand how people who are 'moralist' vegetarians don't become vegans, given the level of subsidy the dairy industry provides to the meat trade (to the extent without it, it would collapse - I have no direct knowledge of the US figures but I'd be surprised if they were different to the rest of the world). It's one of the reasons I gave up being a vegetarian, that I wasn't prepared to be a Vegan but the moral contradiction was too big.

Let's not get started on "vegetarians" who own cats either.

Sorry for harshing the zing thread.

it might be good to get a little bit started on "vegetarians" who own cats but just enough to cure bafflement, no more.

it seems that some ex-vegetarians can't tell Miaow from Crawling Chaos

http://www.veggiepets.com/acatalog/vegecat1.jpg

I'm not a moralist vegetarian, but for me the reason I wouldn't (and haven't) become a vegan is that I don't make pretensions of being a perfect person. I do my best to reduce my impact on the environment and on nature, but does that mean I'm not going to ever wear leather shoes, or that I'm going to go out of my way to avoid stepping on an ant? No.

If given a tasty, high-protein vegan option in a restaurant, I'll usually take it. But if I happen to eat something with eggs in it, I don't see any reason to beat myself up over it.

I like eating meat and wearing leather products because it makes me feel connected to history

polyphonic maybe you didn't get the memo: either you have to be 100% true to the last iteration of all your principles, all the time, all day long, or your principles are hollow and empty - in a word, hypocritical. It's all or nothing man. Vegetarians like you and I are living a great big lie and all this talk of "reducing impact" will never bring Martin Hannett back from the dead. Face reality!

I'm pretty sure Ian hung himself with a leather belt, correct me if I'm wrong.

what are you trying to do, cause a schism?

when I stand up and brush the beef jerky crumbs from my chaps, I think to myself, "this is how cowboys must have felt"

Beating yourself up is the coward's way out. You should step aside and let the experts have a shot.

Yeah aldo, isn't that akin to saying "I can't bring myself to stop stealing cars so I might as well start stealing motorbikes again, or else I'm a hypocrite"?

vegan beef

either you have to be 100% true to the last iteration of all your principles, all the time, all day long, or your principles are hollow and empty

vs

"I turn my TV off but leave everything else on standby which is OK because I'm doing my bit which is enough" - which I seem to recall a lot of people bitching about during the Live Earth threads.

To reduce the cat thing to basic logic:

Cats have to eat meat based protein to survive (supplements are just that, supplements)
You don't need to own a cat
Therefore, animals needlessly die to support your lifestyle choice

That seems fairly self-explanatory.

But hey, bitch about me all you like and point out how I'm wrong. Moral decisions should be just that. I'm not aware of any definition of morality that allows for grey areas, but since I have mentioned definitions then why not rip it out of me for that too.

Alba, if I had made a morality-based decision as to why I had stopped stealing motorbikes as opposed to cars then I agree with you. Since that doesn't seem to be morality based (having not given up theft as a concept between the two) then I'm not sure how it applies.

But hey, I'm off top bed with my flu. Knock yerselves out.

thread ruined by humorless carnivore, film at eleven

I stopped eating meat about 12 years ago and could never imagine doing so again. My husband is also vegetarian and we have this ongoing debate about whether or not to raise our future kids as vegetarians. I don't see why we wouldn't be he seems to think we shouldn't which is beyond strange to me. At this point I wouldn't even know how to cook, handle, or prepare meat. Blech.

I went WAY off my veganism in Paris, didn't know how to explain it. Had some questionable fish but damn that escargot was DOPENESS. It was a lot easier in Addis, natch, just asked for "fasting food." Now that I'm home, I'm vacillating between pizza and, y'know, riceier stuff.

And it is SUPER easy to raise vegetarian kids. Everyone told us it was a horrible idea but our children are healthy and strong, my 11-year-old daughter is already taller than my wife, etc. Rice plus beans equals complete protein.

but I'm sure everyone will be happy to point out what a damn hypocrite I am...after all, I have four cats!

Aldo, my point is that I'm sure many lacto-vegetarians are well aware that eating meat and eating dairy are bad for basically the same reason (ie. in the analogy, they know theft is wrong, no matter what vehicle they steal). But they can't face going fully vegan, so make a compromise and get on with things. What are the alternatives: going through life constantly beating yourself up every time you drink a glass of milk, or saying "Hell, I know eating meat causes animals suffering, but I'll do it just so I'm not a hypocrite"?

Hypocrisy is a good thing to knock in smug people, but I think it's kind of a red herring when it comes to people just trying to be better than terrible.

How do you like your meat prepared?

No molars.

Yeah, I bet if you ate molars, that would exacerbate your stomach problems.

Basically, I like meat spiced beyond belief; The more pepper and garlic on it, the better. Take these things away and the meat usually isn't worth it to me.

I am going to have a much harder time with the alcohol portion of this (assuming my fears are correct; I haven't backed up my conclusions with a doctor's visit yet).

dude i'm sorry to hear that you've been having visits from the GERD monster

The GERD monster is a fucking bitch and a half.

A dear friend , who is a vegetarian, eats meat when it is served. Like, holidays and such. His take on it is: "I feel that it is weird to not accept food. " Impolite to the host, etc.

See, I think that's kind of impolite hosting - if I'm having people round to eat, I would find out if any of them had special dietary requirements. Would your host have expected people to eat things they couldn't eat on religious or allergy grounds, for example?

While I sort of agree with aldo in principle, in that if you're going to become vegetarian for ethical reasons, you have to do it properly or not do it at all, I think it's really not as easy as that. I mean, who knew certain chocolate brands were made from dead-animal by-products? (Not my vegetarian brother, for one, until it was publicised.) Saying that, any vegetarian who will eat meat really isn't a vegetarian so much as someone who doesn't eat very much meat/dead-animal-product.

I would never become vegetarian because I like meat too much. I try, as far as possible, to eat meat that has come from non-factory-farmed sources, but I don't beat myself up over the odd transgression.

Expecting people to cater to your particular food tastes is impolite. The host shouldn't "expect" you to eat anything you don't want to eat, but if you aren't interested in anything on a nutritious and varied menu, it's not because the cook is rude.

"eat meat or starve" doesn't sound terribly varied to me. But whatever.

Because is isn't?

I don't think I've ever been to a dinner party where every dish was made of meat and I'm from the midwest.

Yeah, me neither, when going to a place with lots of guests*, which is why I find it kind of wrong that aimurchie's supposedly vegetarian friend was compelled to eat meat. Doesn't sound very varied to me, and would strike me as failing on the hosting front.

* if it's just a few friends, that's different, but I would tend to find out if there was anyone with any problems with any kinds of food - I don't eat seafood, and make that clear before someone takes the time to prepare a lovely fish dish that I'm just going to vomit over.

Where were they compelled? aimurchie said their friend feels weird refusing food. Nobody here has suggested anybody should *have* to eat anything they don't want to eat.

Yeah, I read that to mean aimurchie's friend was compelled to eat meat out of his/her sense of politeness, not because there was no other option.

Haha yes, hi dere green bean casserole, at the very least. xxxp

ugh, green bean abomination you mean

I am hearing aimurchie the most on this thread, pickiness is a LUXURY, we can afford to refuse valuable protein and opt to barely survive, if we want to!! WAU. That is incredibly lucky for us, I keep thinking.

it's really all about the crispy onion strings, xpost

guys, let's not ruin the vegetarian thread with examples of how meat-eaters can fuck up a vegetable

Also, you know, if eating what is served by others is a matter of basic harmony and breaking bread in a historical, almost metaphysical way -- wishing each other well, proclaiming friendship & community, that kind of stuff -- sometimes you just gotta weigh the contribution to the harmony of the whole system, I think. A deeply subjective thing, obv.

You suggested that expecting your vegetarianism to be catered for is impolite, I merely said that I would have expected the host of a party to cater for the needs/requirements of their guests. From what she said, I'm guessing it was eat the meat or don't eat at all and be made to feel awkward, which seems pretty much compulsory to me if you're the kind of person not willing to say no to something.

I think it's more weird that a vegetarian ate the meat, but I guess they aren't that bothered about their vegetarianism.

xpost, yeah, compelled out of a sense of politeness, exactly. I still don't get why they were put in that position to start with. It's not like not eating meat is some weirdo choice or anything.

I mean, you haven't lived until you've seen me pick out sauteed strings of onion or peas from the alfredo, or wahtever -- and I have LOTS of food issues. But I started learning to just chew and swallow when I started having adult friends who carefully prepared meals for me with care and love and friendship.

I think it's more weird that a vegetarian ate the meat, but I guess they aren't that bothered about their vegetarianism.

I think this is the salient point you're ignoring, ailsa.

Surely respecting the wishes/beliefs of others should come into it too, Laurel?

We were at dinner with a relative a while back and my brother refused to eat some pasta dish she'd made because she cooked it with ham then picked the ham out of my brother's portion and didn't understand that he really didn't want to eat something that had been cooked with meat and tasted of meat rather that just not eat something with meat in it. She actually rolled her eyes and muttered about him being awkward, despite the fact that he'd made it clear he wouldn't eat any meat dishes. Which I feel is very rude. Perhaps my brother's the rude one for not respecting her inability to listen to him?

(xpost, I'm not ignoring it totally, Dan, but it was just the wider point that interested me in passing, why someone who is at least pretending to be a veggie enough for it to be an issue wasn't catered for, and why that is their fault rather than the host)

We get really good meat. organic, etc.
but i can't kill the cow, so that's my dilemma.

Cheese? You have no idea how much it means to me.
Cheese - bread - wine.
vegans are totally missing the point.

-- aimurchie, Sunday, July 22, 2007 4:17 PM

I have no idea what this means.

No, but I was thinking more along the lines of an unexpected guest, or times being tight and purchasing specialty products and making two sets of dishes when meat is already available* being a serious imposition, or an infinite number of other possible circumstances in which peace and acceptance of other human beings and fellowship could conceivably take precedence.

*Yes, I know meat is relatively expensive compared to very basic vegetarian diet, but if people already have it, or have easy access to it, than that is simply what they have.

Again you're talking about situations where people who cook something expect other people to eat it... Which is different from people eating something they feel weird about refusing.

I read what aimurchie said as if, in your example, your brother just ate the pasta because they'd feel weird being particular about it. Your relative picked meat out of a serving of food for your brother. That's trying to be inclusive and you're talking about how she just can't listen.

I'm not ignoring it totally, Dan, but it was just the wider point that interested me in passing, why someone who is at least pretending to be a veggie enough for it to be an issue wasn't catered for, and why that is their fault rather than the host

You're assigning "fault" to this situation where there isn't any from the way the story was told.

I mean, you know, when a person whose lifestyle & expectations differ from yours does their best effort & time & toil on something and offers it to you w/ good intentions, there are times when it's cool to be all "you are amazing, thank you so much but here, I'll just have more of these awesome green beans, don't worry about me" and times when maybe you just eat the pasta. Everybody likes pasta!

IF the cook was told he wouldn't eat meat AND she made it anyway THEN she is dumm for being all 'waht but I picked all the ham out,' it's 2007 fer chrissake, and not in like Thailand where ham is in everything even "vegetarian" meals, she shoulda known that ham is meat. IF he did not make this clear, THEN it is his fault BUT he still didnt have to eat it. EITHER WAY it is not because vegans are missing the point haha.

Anyway, sure, one of the elements of gracious hosting is accommodating yr guests and their special needs in a way that is still inclusive and doesn't single them out. With a little class & consideration, people could be meeting in the middle all the time! But life & circumstances not being ideal, budgets and time and expectations being what they are...it can't always happen, of course.

Fair enough, but I still don't think anyone should expect a proper vegetarian to eat meat, regardless of circumstances, or think it wrong that they wouldn't.

Kerm, the picking-meat-out thing was such a pointless gesture as to be meaningless. He wouldn't eat it because, well, he's vegetarian and that doesn't include eating things that have had meat in it, which isn't that hard a concept to understand, especially when it's been explained to you. (xpost, Dimension 5ive is spot on, and he didn't eat it)

Perhaps this is all because every vegetarian I know is pretty hardline about it, rather than just not particularly liking meat but being willing to eat it if needs must.

I'm not actually picking on aimurchie's actual point so much as extrapolating from it now, btw. I wasn't assigning fault, more countering the "it would be impolite to refuse" with my own view that it seems equally impolite to put someone in a position where they feel they have no option to refuse. It's a shitty example to continue from, because he evidently didn't feel that strongly about it to start with, so I'm off it now.

ham is gross and permeates everything it is cooked with, so it is not a good example of a meat that can be picked out and forgotten about. also there is often a passive-aggressive aspect to relatives trying to make vegetarians eat things. there is nothing polite about trying to control others.

Mmmmm haaaaaaaaaaaaaam

Here's that other forum I referenced above. Pretty good discussion on both ends, I think.

my sister's a hardcore vegetarian but when she visited lesotho (africa) she knew she was probably going to have to throw that to the wind a few times while she was there, which she did

i never roll my eyes at vegetarian requests if i'm cooking dinner unless the veggie in question has NOT TOLD ME BEFOREHAND, which is frustrating!!

although that's nothing next to dealing with the gluten-freers - there are like specific kinds of MUSTARD you can't serve these people (god bless them)

Bless their cotton socks.

Turkey. Thanksgiving turkey. That's the supposed meat that my so called friend nibbled.
he made his Mom happy by nibbling.
And i respect that he nibbled.
I respect that anyone is trying to eat in a conscious manner. I just think we should all be really happy about eating.
Bread- cheese-wine.
Big Hoos - just a cursory reading of that link is saying exactly what I'm saying - respect your food!
i'm just talkin' turkey, i guess.

So, my nibbling friend wasn't forced to eat the turkey. he ate some turkey because it made his mom happy.

if we really want to have a discussion about food, we would have to argue about every single source of the food. is it better to buy a tomato from a local grower who uses pesticides, or buy a tomato from a giganitc corporate store that supports organic farmers?

shall i eat some bunny rabbit when i visit my homesteading friends? probably not. Although, out of respect for them, I should probably try. But they don't care if i do or don't.

*Yes, I know meat is relatively expensive compared to very basic vegetarian diet, but if people already have it, or have easy access to it, than that is simply what they have.

fwiw, locally produced, organic, grass-fed beef is cheaper and easier to come by out here than, say, an organic red bell pepper.

also, a friend of mine broke her 20-some year, since-birth vegetarianism because didn't pack enough food for a hike she and a friend got lost on. So, turkey sandwich was what was available, and turkey sandwich was what she ate.

Generally speaking, eating meat is wasteful, and totally unnecessary as a source of protein. Iron can be found in other things, as well (the Fe2+ you're getting in meat is from the heme groups of hemoglobin, as I recall). Also, other animals' proteins are only useful to you because they have amino acids you need (available after degrading the proteins, obv).

That being said: meat is delicious. If I could only eat game meat and wild-caught fish, I'd be thrilled. But shit is expensive, so I don't. Meat, in general, is expensive (except in Montana!), so I'm basically a once-a-week meat eater, and it's usually bison, who spend most of their time chilling out, doing what they've been doing for thousands of years (vs farm-rasied cattle).

Where is "out here," out of curiosity?

Eating locally, in my mind, is a much more tenable "ethical" position to take than veganism.

xp Montana -- most of my beef/bison comes from ranches within 50 miles

interesting point, rw. i think i'm kinda with you on that.

my friend is a strict vegan, on moral grounds, but when he was on holiday in ecuador he bought a couple of non-vegan tapestries from some of the local people. he believes that he is in a situation to choose to not support the meat industry, but these local people in ecuador are not. their means of providing a living for themselves and their families are limited. so he was happy to make this exception to his normal principles.

non-vegan tapestries = meat curtains????

i srsly have no idea what those could be

I had no idea Hoos was a vegetarian. I will have to withdraw my offer to buy you a drink sometime, as the only cocktail I know how to make is a porkchoptini.

Please stop identifying certain foods is organic. All food is organic. Even lunchables. Thank you.

riverwolf: the tapestries were wool, or some other type of animal fur/hair (i'm not entirely sure)

I don't eat anything unless it has been genetically modified for my comfort and pleasure.

In ref. to Tracer Hand (and not to derail thread, but): I was put in charge of menu planning for a 3-day retreat. Group included vegans, vegitarians, atkins types, wf/gf people AND someone allergic to rice flour (what the wf/gf people usually eat). There just wasn't alot of common ground. Luckly, we could all agree on several cases of wine.

My niece (who is five) has a yet to be diagnosed condition. So...no dairy, no wheat or gluten, no sugar (fruit or processed). grnadma (my mother) has become very skilled at baking hemp brownies.With olive oil.

My brother and sister-in-law handle it really well. They throw nice parties and everyone "gets" that Sophie can't eat some stuff.
She can eat tapenade, so that's what i bring. With rice crackers.

She can eat as much meat as she wants! She just can't eat bread, cheese, um and like most of the food in the food universe.

there is nothing more heartbreaking than a five year old asking "Can I have that, Auntie ?
"No, but you CAN have all of this meat!"

She's allergic to food.