Going over your boss's head

does it have to come back on you, though? if the big bosses are already noticing what's going on, maybe they can deal with the situation without implicating you in any kind of disloyal behaviour. personally, i think you're absolutely right to go ahead and do this: if it's affecting not only your team, but the quality of work provided to your clients, then it's a big problem.

i just went thru a similar problem with my boss, who was quite negative and demoralizing. i had to go talk to Human Resources about it even tho i felt guilty. at some point there is a level of professionalism that should be maintained in an office, and it's only his fault for letting that slide.

xpost

I think so too, but am still worried.

I'm sure the big boss won't rat me out. He's only 35 and I think we definitely think along the same lines in regards to how things should be done. I'm just not sure what he could do to remedy it. Perhaps start micro-managing us more which would then just cause more griping from my boss (the two men do not get along). I shall brace myself for that outcome.

surmounter, did you feel guilty b/c he was a generally nice boss to you? If my boss was an asshole to me I really wouldn't care.

haha sorry Ms Misery but i am envisioning your meeting with his boss, and it's like you come into the guy's office, he's in a huge leather swivel chair facing away from you, and he swivels around to face you as you come in, revealing... a guy who looks exactly like your boss, except with a larger head and more gray hair

i.e. i often find that bosses' attitudes come straight from the top, i.e. THEIR bosses, or their bosses' bosses; not always true of course but it often is

Yes, I felt guilty because she was someone who I used to really like, who was decent to me and with whom i had a good connection. but her level of professionalism was off the charts low, and at that point the person is just asking for it.

of course, MM, the othre thing to do would be to talk to your boss. i just couldn't bring myself to do that. BUT, it's always gonna be the boss going "i wish they had just told ME first" story. it's just about what you're comfortable with i think. the bottom line is u owe it to yourself, ur office and ur clients to do something.

i.e. i often find that bosses' attitudes come straight from the top, i.e. THEIR bosses, or their bosses' bosses; not always true of course but it often is

Yeah that's not really the case here. The bigger boss is only one year older than me and my boss (who's in his 50s) resents this greatly. At this university the attitude that you do as little as possible and coast by till retirement is prevelant. It's hard to get sacked here so people get lazy. The bigger boss is not like that and dislikes that attitude, which of course my boss embodies. My boss hates that "the kid" as he calls him is above him.

The problem with going to my boss first is that he is very sensitive and takes offense easily. I've discovered this just from my attempts to standardize our processes and generally make us more effective. There would be no way I could couch my issues without making him resent me.

right. so, u have no choice. difficult people make their lives difficult for themselves.

I think Mr Nathalie experienced this problem as well: higher up they didn't bother that much, an attitude prevalent in most government (and education) jobs. He eventually quit his job. His friend changed jobs as well because of the same atmosphere (also working for the goverment). That must suck. :-(

If he leaves his job at around 2 pm, he must realize that the risk of confrontation is pretty high? You can't have such an attitude and get away with it. Or am I being naive here?

The big boss often drops by after he's left to 'check in on us' and then acts surprised that my boss is not here. He knows he won't be, who's he kidding?

Like, I said it's really hard to discipline/fire people here so I'm not sure what means they have at hand. (also my boss has been here over 15 years which makes him more untouchable) Probably would need hard evidence of tomfoolery and not working. Considering my ilx and scrabble time I would be loathe to see this tack taken. But all my clients love me. His, not so much.

In fact the second biggest site at the University (which unfortunately is on his list) is about to start a redesign. I've made it clear to both bosses that I want to be involved in this. In fact, I plan to stage a coup and oust my boss from the project all together. Not only for selfish reasons but b/c I want the redesign to actually go well and not have us alienate yet more important clients.

but u know MM after it all went down with my boss, she really understood what needed to happen and we have a terrific relationship now.

that said she just called she's OUT 2DAY I'M ALL ALONE IN THE OFFICE WOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!!

btw i can't believe ur boss bakes u cakes on ur birthdays... whaaaa

where do you work, sur?

Ms Miz, it sounds like your boss is to that point in his career where he needs to be shuffled off to the closest pigeon hole to wait out his days.

i work at at a performance art house in Brooklyn... we put on dance, theater, music, film and we have galas and stuff :-) i'm in Development (fundraising) but I do a lot of ticketing as well. i'm ur friendly ticket rep.

customer service forever Ruby!!

ha okay maybe not.

btw i can't believe ur boss bakes u cakes on ur birthdays... whaaaa

Yeah mine was the bestest carrot cake I've ever had. *guilt*

xpost

I think he would actually love this. Maybe that's what they thought they were doing when they put him there. But our team, and responsibilites have grown too much over the past couple of years.

xpost god, i hope not!

Ms M that sounds familiar.. universities are like that.. the managers of several depts @ my work are doing the same.. the politics are a minefield and people get wayyy hypersensitive and territorial even though they are completely terrible managers and staff turnover is really high as a result.

clearly the answer is for your boss to be "promoted" to some ambiguous "special projects" position in which he has no supervisory responsibilities and can waste time to his heart's content. i am not kidding. sr management can create positions can't they?

it's so depressing that this is the way it has to happen but.. i can't see any other way

it makes me keep reminding myself, get out of university workplace after a couple years max, because you get habituated to this kind of thing and fall behind on current technology (perhaps)

although maybe not. if your web dept is keeping up with the curve that's awesome - are you on linked in or anything? it is nice to have others to bounce ideas off of

I've actually tried to start a peer group of campus developers. There are literally hundreds of us and we're virtually strangers. I'd like to do this before the next SXSWi so we can host a party. I mean it is our city and we are the largest employer, it's a shame we don't do such a thing. But there has been low interest and I'm kind of a wall flower so, erm. . .

I would like to stay here b/c I love the educational environment. I'm really done with corporations and start-ups. The only thing I would leave for would be a non-profit.

dat's a me

d'oh! one of my colleagues (not a developer but in tech field) was at SXSW actually

there is a social networking site dedicated to this (higheredexperts.com i think) but i haven't really used it.. and the uwebd listserv but.. not really the same

There were lots of parties hosted by different tech companies, organizations. But none by my University. Not only the largest in the nation but actually in Austin. Embarrassing!

Is there a way you can suggest a comfortable pigeon hole to the bigger boss? Is there a "special project" current boss can be focused on that would keep him out of the way? The real problem that can come from this kind of thing is who's gonna take his place? Does there need to be a manager there? Is that something you want to do? Is your team capable of enough self-direction to not need anyone officially in charge? (Actually, if you're all still getting stuff done with all this negativity from the immediate boss, the answer there is probably yes.) Can current boss keep the manager title (if he wants it, it sounds like he might not), but just be a figurehead while he snuggles down in his nest?

in other words, daria-g otm

(i haven't read this all the way through, but, he hates his job and is just waiting for retirement....and he's only 35? WTF? that's going to be a long horrible wait for him. Unless you guys are rolling in the dough and he's working out some way to retire awfully early. or planning on dying when he's 50.

oh wait never mind, I got bosses confused

Yeah my boss is older. His boss is 35.

Is there a way you can suggest a comfortable pigeon hole to the bigger boss? Is there a "special project" current boss can be focused on that would keep him out of the way? The real problem that can come from this kind of thing is who's gonna take his place?

I have no idea what they could with him and wouldn't suggest it. That's his managers place to decide. We are virtually functioning without a manager now as it is. Not to sound arrogant but I could definitely take his place and do a better job than he currently is. I've been in this field for 10+ years and if it wasn't for my constant job hopping I would probably already be in a position like his.

I don't think this is something I would suggest to the bigger boss though. Perhaps through my pro-activeness and making a point that my contributions and directions are noticed that will come to be on its own.

Well, I've had to add this to the misread thread titles thread.

Yeah, my usual mode for this is to plant the idea with the current boss, reinforce it until he thinks it's his idea, then encourage him to take it to the bigger boss. Not that I'm always doing this sort of thing, but it has come in handy twice.

the idea being "You're a crappy manager?"

Illustration:

A few months ago I was trouble with a client (she gives everyone trouble and basically treats anyone who isn't top mgmt as a peon.) I felt I reached a brick wall with her. I asked my boss for help saying I no longer knew how to handle the situation.

His reply was "Well what do you want me to do?"
Me , "Help me. Tell me how to handle it at this point or step in and talk to her."
Him: "I don't want to tell you what to do."
Me (literally): "But you're my manager! I'm saying I don't know what to do and I'm asking for you to help me!"

"was trouble" = "having trouble"

Argh! That's awful.

"You're a crappy manager" with the subtle finesse of "You'd be the perfect person to take charge of project X, because of your (pick one) a) years of experience b) grasp of the convoluted history/details of said project c) ability to sit quietly in the corner browsing whatever on the web/doing the crossword/napping". Sometimes, depending on the person, bringing up the "you don't seem challenged by this work, what would you rather do" thing works, but that's better for annoying co-worker than boss. Then, you help them with their resume and sic the headhunters on them.

artggghhhh he just treated us to lunch in honor of a co-workers anniversary. Said co-worker exclaims "You're the best boss! I'd hate to work for [bigger boss]!" Me: *cringe*

But by the end of lunch I was frustrated again as I tried to convince him of the right way of going into this big project coming up. He kept arguing (with no good points) pursing his lips and folding his napkin tighter and tighter. I predict rough roads ahead.

Sam, I feel your pain. Take the opportunity to make it better, get out if you can't - it's very difficult to be the hardworking sensible one in the midst of people killing time and not giving a shit and the difference going undetected by an ineffective manager. Not saying anything else specific, but I might email you when I get my head together a bit.

(non-profit orgs can be as bad by the way. Thinking that charitable organisations are run completely wonderfully and altruistically by amazing caring sharing driven people = worst mistake I have made, and keep making)

i keep reading this thread title as "giving your boss head"

you're stabbing him in the back

haha that's so deadpan. ur saying if she goes to Bigger Boss she's stabbing her boss in the back?

Maybe Heave Ho, although stressing how negatively he is affecting me is my main goal.

In two other jobs I left b/c my mgr was ineffective and incompetent. When questioned by higher-ups about why I was leaving and whether there was anything they could do to change my mind, I kept my mouth closed. Now, I think I should've been honest.

Now's my chance not to repeat past mistakes.

The director of my department (also at a large university with the same attiude problems) is VERY MUCH LIKE THIS. Fortunately, I am low enough on the ladder that his actions don't affect me. UNfortunately my direct supervisor is a younger, worse version of this problem (she flat-out admitted to me yesterday that she would have one of my coworkers fired for being incompetent and constant absenteeism EXCEPT SHE IS HER ONLY DRUG HOOKUP).

That said, if all else fails, moving to similar positions in different offices is very easy at my university, maybe if you get truly desperate you can move internally?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

she flat-out admitted to me yesterday that she would have one of my coworkers fired for being incompetent and constant absenteeism EXCEPT SHE IS HER ONLY DRUG HOOKUP).

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus. . .

Yes my last resort would be to apply for my position somewhere else on campus. But I'd prefer not to do that as I generally like my dept. Again this is something I will stress to the bigger boss. I don't want this situation to force me into that decision.

I've heard that charities can be just awful to work for sometimes. I'd imagine that there's alot of people working/volunteering for such organizations without a full background in management or whatever experience might be necessary?

some xposts and ahhaha ha ha ha haa!!!

actually.. a better way to pitch it might be in terms of overall relationships with university clients and how it negatively affects them and is inefficient etc. because i bet when these problems happen, they call your boss's boss anyway and complain, or the dissatisfaction is made known to him in some way. so it would be about how it would make your boss's boss have less annoyances at his job. i find if it's mostly about you & your unhappiness... the powers that be don't care, because they are first and foremost on a management team and loyalties lie with fellow managers at the end of the day

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/albaalba/ilx/picture1.jpg

uh, you know what happened to colvin after that experiment right? i'm just sayin :)

he became a legend in the academic community!

no wai, they killed the program due to lack of funds didn't they?

LOL for some reason this conversation is really hilarious, i think b/c i really have no idea what u guys are talking about and it sounds important.

this was such a daytime thread, IMO.

they killed the program due to lack of funds didn't they?

the scrawny dude tells him he's a legend when he's hiring him. But majorly ott.

daytime vs. nitetime threads: FITE

haha i kno rly, i was thinking

Daria, I shall take your advice into consideration.

I am about to head out for this meeting. Oh, my anxiousness. . .

GOOD LUCK! remember ur doing the right thing ;)

It went very well.

He encouraged me to sign up for some leadership development courses and asked if I would ever be interested in a managerial role.

Good result, well done!

awesome, ms miz!

:-D