Landmark Forum

From other thread cos I hadn't seen this one yet:

Uhhhghhghg my old roommate was a FANATICAL Landmark devotee. As far as I can tell, though, it helped her make a lot of strides for a not-very-bright, not-very-evolved person!! It's kind of...a catch-up, I think, for people who haven't learned any good ways to think about emotions...? And as such probably very useful for the right person at the right time.

Got sent to one of those seminars once. Brutal. One of the most boring days I ever spent. Fuckers are so damn serious about I HELPING YOU! And maybe you wish you weren't the sort of person who makes vaguely insulting "jokes" about how lame it all is in the middle of a crowded conference room, but then again, you are, so go with it.

I figure not getting shit done means that you hate your job. And if you hate your job, why find ways to increase your output? So you can continue to profitably endure the suffering for years? Bullshit. Quit, and find something you actually like doing.

Man, if I was the kind of person who could come out onto a stage with an intense electric guitar arpeggio backed by reverb synth power, all come out on stage and be INTENSE!!!, that's a racket. I think I could really do it if I didn't so much resemble a Campbell's Soup Kid.

I would make so much bank. I just have to find something common sense but make it more complicated and oblique, and give it a lot of dynamic names, and give them a day planner of some special sort so they have something to do with their fingers.

"Web browsing is the preeminent activity of the Aughties, taking over 60% of the average person's day. With Abbott's patented 9 step Pre-Prioritization and Full Actionablility process, you too can get the most out of your Browsing Experience.

Graduates post forum responses an average of 53% faster than other competing programs, and can find pictures of Lindsay Lohan's vagina in under 2 seconds!

Change your life today!

2 pm Saturday at the downtown Radison, $250, light lunch provided."

"Lidslo vadge Power Point scheduled after meeting at 4"

Optimizing yr pooter viewing for maximum Arousatential Zeitgeistbation."

Oh man, my friend works in an office that is crawling with these people. sisut to thread!

Arousatential Zeitgeistbation OTM.

My landlord wants his new step-son to go thru this. Great.

Shelter him like the Anne Frank he has just become. Oh lord lordb.

The guy's really crappy motivational business was really the only thing I liked in "Little Ms. Sunshine."

I did the Forum a few times and I'm totally normal. As far as I can tell it's an introspective weekend. Nothing brainwashy or culty about it.

oh excuse me, I have to go post something on the "thread for when you just want to c&p certain things over and over again"

landmark forum is for idiots and i unfortunately know a few of them. they will periodically try to recruit me despite my obvious distate for the whole concept. total cultish bullshit, like most anything that claims to know The Answer.

i went to an intro seminar the other week cos a friend kept telling me about it. the actual seminar itself was interesting and did actaully make me rethink a few things, but the hard selling part that followed was just horrible. its pretty in your face and didnt really sit that well with me after the talk. plus i just hate people trying to sell me shit. not sure if ill actually do it though. id be a bit worried id end up like these robotic over animated euphoric drones, though i think my (healthy) cynicism about it would balance that out and stop it from happening.

if your cynicism is truly healthy you will stay the fuck away from this

I had a boss about ten years ago that was really into this, and had a "coach" that he'd occasionally make the employees have meetings with, so we'd all get a dose of Landmark-ese. One of the things we had to do was go around the table (there were only about 10 employees) and say what we thought would help us do our jobs better. Landmark coach wasn't too happy when I answered, "a raise."

Werner Erhard based EST (and, ultimately, Landmark) on what he learned as a Scientologist, but the Church of Scientology eventually declared him a "suppressive person." In the mid-90s, the CEO of Landmark (Erhard's brother) fled to Moscow because he believed Scientologist hit men were trying to murder him.

i think you can have healthy cynicism rather than bitter cynicism. ive read a lot of mixed reviews. not everyone seems to emerge a total robot. even the journo from the guardian admitted it wasnt too bad. im still undecided but i think if youre very impressionable/'damaged' or vulnerable you might be more susceptible to the cultishness of landmark, otherwise i think you can take the good and bad. thats what id like to think anyway. the thing i do dislike though is how they keep trying to sell it to you, i got a phone call from some guy just the other day, and how they try to get you to sign up for other courses over and over. i can imagine some people going to one course then going again and again cos they think theres more and more to improve. pretty grim.

anything that claims to have the answers, esp when it's a pyramid scheme, is bullshit.

is it really a pyramid scheme? the guy i spoke to on the phone said he didnt get paid to call people etc etc. he was just doing it cos it was part of the agreement, he didnt get anything out of it. (apparently. tbh i think most self help classes/therapy etc is bs. theyre just waiting to get their cheque.

the job I had after I parted ways with the company run by Landmark-loving boss, was doing audio-visual set-up at hotels. One of the hotels I worked at was the regular venue for ... Landmark meetings. Those people were serious douches as clients. They actually stole our (relatively crappy) equipment. Once they gave a co-worker shit about the temperature of the drinking water. The a/v technician has nothing to do with the water service - that would be the banquet waiters - but, you know, he was Mexican, and so were the banquet waiters, so he should totally respond to their water needs.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/dec/14/ameliahill.theobserver

lol the guardian (well, observer really) hack got totally suckered. always thought amelia hill was a bit credulous, but seriously, a journalist investigating a maybe-culty organisation decides "to stop analysing and simply give Jerry my trust"? sackable offence imo.

btw, not getting paid is an essential part of most pyramid schemes.

i have a couple of friends who have become landmark "teachers" and have essentially become worker bees for the group at the expense of their social lives, and while these are people who never really needed help they are certainly people who buy into self-help bullshit and feel like they need networking assistance. anyone who talks about any organization in glowing terms without questioning it is either a fan of a sports organization or a member of a culty group like this.

xp omar: if they're not the founder of the organization, that is.

well yes

networking assistance?

i shd say my sis's ex bf did this course and ended up a TOTALLY diff person. still nice, but one of those scarily animated/HAPPY/everything is great/exhaustingly get up and go people. a bit frightening. he did that thing where he has to call up ppl to restore/repair their relationships and im sure that sometimes its nice to reconnect but for my sister it was like digging up old shit that had been dead and buried for ages. she didnt really appreciate his attempts to apologise or try and make amends and clear the air etc etc.

networking = meeting people who can further your career aspirations
assistance = help in meeting those people

lots of people get into it here in l.a. because since it's a relatively small group they feel like it will help them make a name for themselves with others and lead to work. a lot of the friends of these two are people i have spent time with before and they're all landmark folks (i discovered this after the fact) and they all have the same bullshit positive attitude, which manifests itself in them acting like they know the secret of life and they're on the right path and are better off than everyone else.

i'd never heard about this. i love finding out about new cults.

new to me, i mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

Notable participants

Cher[14]
4 members of The 5th Dimension[14]
Cloris Leachman[14]
Joe Namath[14]
Yoko Ono[14]
Jeff Bridges [15]
John Denver [16]
Valerie Harper[17]
Harry Mathews[18]
Joel Schumacher[19]
Diana Ross[19]
Walter Kaufmann (philosopher)[20]
Douglas Engelbart

not a cult

splitting_hairs.gif

What about this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle

"Celebrity admirers of the book include Tony Hawks, Annie Lennox, Gillian Anderson, Jeff Goldblum, Zach Galifianakis, Oprah Winfrey, Ben Stiller, Brett Kirk, Meg Ryan, Jim Carrey, Trey Anastasio, Michelle Ang, Rainn Wilson and Dusty Baker."

certainly not a cult in the popular sense of the word. maybe in the classical sense of the word.

Valerie Harper (philosopher)

4 Dimensions

http://www.rickross.com/groups/landmark.html

http://images.nymag.com/images/2/daily/2010/05/20100520_ross_146x97.jpg

New York Post--Page Six, June 19, 2000

On a web site promoting Landmark's Seattle office, a prominently displayed message reads: "For Microsoft Employees: The course is approved external training by Microsoft and is typically covered by Microsoft if you make a request of your manager."

A Microsoft spokesperson told us: "Microsoft was unaware of the posting on the Landmark web site and we are looking into it. At this time, Microsoft has a practice of not working with this company."

But a staffer at Landmark's Seattle headquarters says, "I know that a lot of Microsoft employees have been compensated to do the Landmark Forum. It's not anything that we track or promote, but there's a been a lot of people in here from Microsoft."

http://www.landmarkeducation.com/file_redirect.jsp?siteObjectID=20&fname=grid.jpg

Dear Landmark:

I am firing you as my coach for empowerment.

I am totally disappointed in your model for facilitating creating someone's future possibilities. In terms of efficacy of time, why Landmark chose the "boot camp" approach, as opposed to optimizing the statistically proven 8-10 hour window for human retention productivity is beyond me. Just far too much foreplay. In listening for just for one day, it occurs to me that the essence could have been distilled to 8-10 hours. I'm exhausted after 15 hours and admit I'm worn down. Yelling passionately also turns me right off.

My intention was to get out my "gray" or safe zone, which has limited me to only working for someone else during an otherwise successful multi-decade career and not achieving financial freedom. I am a byproduct of a functional family and there is nothing in my past that precludes me from reaching my future possibilities. All of the "breakthroughs" mentored yesterday appeared to be for dysfunctional families and relationships--UGH!

I am "authentic" through my outlook and reality, but will be "selling out" because I feel that Landmark cannot facilitate the "breakthroughs" to reach my future possibilities.

I will be prioritizing another model to reach my future possibilities. Your model doesn't work for me.

Postby squid_lips » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:42 am
I fear I have become a zombie.

My psychology is all over the place. I look in the mirror sometimes and I am glassy eyed.

I did the Landmark Forum around 10 years ago, and my family and friends all noticed a negative change around this time. They put this down to a car crash and the shock to the system I received -

Immediately after the Landmark Forum, I misjudged a right hand turn while driving my car, knowing deep down I was not going to make the turn. I was practically in a psychotic state, believing myself to be free of all my limitations. My car was severed in half, I received concussion to the head, and minor cuts and bruises. The other car's occupants were all okay.

I was pretty shocked at what had happened, and couldn't admit that I had made a very bad error of judgement.

Since that time, I managed to finish my uni degree, and stumbled through 3 or 4 mediocre IT jobs.

Since the start of uni, I had been quite low on self-esteem. I had a bowel complaint which really got to me - I was leaking unpleasant gas almost daily. It killed my self-esteem and left me feeling ugly. To top this off, I was also playing with sex toys I shouldn't have been, and this compounded the guilt and disgust I felt at having a bad bowel. On top of this, I also had a sexual identity crisis through all my uni days and late high school!

So, one of my family noticing I had become very miserable and withdrawn, suggested I take the Landmark Forum. All of the problems I note above were not known by anyone, and I always kept them to myself, under a layer of hidden guilt and shame.

The Landmark Forum is supposed to de-construct your story, so you can reconstruct it again in a much more positive and responsible way. I can definitely see the benefit of this, however, I never spoke about bad smelling bowel compaints or sexual identity crisies in front of a room full of people(!), and only received Landmark's message that life was inherently meaningless, and we were only story making machines.

My concience is not really working for me. I am not sure if that is the result of an accumulation of dishonesty and 'reasoning away', the result of a series of negative beliefs in existence since before landmark, or the result of the 'brainwashing' or group hypnosis effects Landmark supposedly uses.

lol, some ppl should probably not do this course. or anything else.

that definitely sounds like the weird ramblings of a traumatic brain injury survivor

like look -- if you think doing a course, any course, could possibly brainwash you / traumatize you / etc, maybe stay away from anything like this. most ppl aren't going to get brainwashed, no matter how long the course hours are or how intense the discussions are. it's fucking words at the end of the day. no one hooks you up to any machines or gives you drugs.

no one hooks you up to any machines or gives you drugs.

― Mordy, Friday, November 11, 2011 4:28 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well then what's the point?

i have never done those practical philosophy courses they advertise on the subway but i imagine it's a lot like those. they take some heidegger and they develop it practically and ask participants to examine their lives thru these various philosophical contexts. it ends with 'life is empty + meaningless' bc that's the final heuristic deconstruction. it's basically all just hermeneutics 101.

at one of the courses i did, they basically read from rorty's irony, contingency + solidarity. and yes, rorty is fucking awesome so talking about him was fucking awesome.

i also recommend to anyone who is interested, either pruriently or otherwise, to read this: http://www.amazon.com/Werner-Erhard-Transformation-Man-Founding/dp/0517535025

bc a) it's fascinating and b) werner and est were really at a cross-section of american pop culture and are probably (along w/ other mass encounter groups) fundamental to understanding a certain vision of american success that became enshrined in corporate culture

^ the documentary based on that was on netflix a little bit ago, definitely an interesting watch

I wonder if they still only let you go to the bathroom once every eight hours.

(During meetings, I mean.)

You can go to the bathroom whenever you want, tho they verbally recommend people to only go during breaks. There are short breaks every hour or so. And they're not meetings, they're given lecture-style in like conference type rooms.

I was asking because that was a notorious feature of EST.

yeah. the theory was that ppl were using bathroom breaks as a way of getting away from confrontational stuff. i think they ended that when the company became Landmark.

Footage from EST is in one of the Adam Curtis docs as well (Century of the Self, I think?)

the werner erhard documentary is on snail mail netflix, but isn't streaming currently. i put it in my queue.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Transformation_The_Life_and_Legacy_of_Werner_Erhard/70096652?trkid=2361637

and they have a page for century of the self but they don't carry the dvd.

My brother-in-law and sister-in-law did Landmark courses in 07 or 08 and people definitely tried to prohibit them from using the bathroom.

You can go to the bathroom whenever you want, tho they verbally recommend people to only go during breaks. There are short breaks every hour or so.

I don't know when you did it, but this is not currently true. Actually, neither of these things is true.

I did it last about 5-6 years ago? When I did it they would discourage you from using the bathroom but they never disallowed you to use it. Did you actually have a different experience than this? I feel like someone might feel bullied not to go, but you need to go, no one is going to hold you down.

Walter Kaufmann (philosopher)[20]

interesting connection and a small world; this guy was responsible for re-translating Nietzsche all those decades ago, and taught the philosophy professor I would go on to take a couple existentialism classes from(and who'd be one of my fave teachers from undergrad life).

certainly not a cult in the popular sense of the word

― cult member, Friday, November 11, 2011 2:41 PM

cute, i guess?

i'll have to bring up that point with my cult seminar leaders this weekend at our retreat at the local airport

its dangerous to go alone! take this

http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00TCctjSeJrqUv/Male-Female-Urine-Bottle-HP-3057-.jpg

u kno, when i did a course there and had to use the bathroom, i got up and went and used it and then came back and sat down again so

that memory was programmed tho

Uncomfortable high pressure shit under the guise of self-help. Documented links to Scientology. Worrying tendency to aggressively pursue any published negativity with legal action.

they must break u b4 they rebuild u

lol, you say "documented links" like it's a big secret that has been uncovered

/!\ALERT/!\ one of them /!\ALERT/!\

i haven't taken a Landmark course or done anything involving Landmark in over seven years!

There is a landmark 3 day seminar happening 2 weeks from now where I am. At Whole Foods some ladies invited me to the introductory seminar. I admit that I was kind of sort of smitten with the introduction(HIDES), but was unable to plunk down the 550 for the 3 day seminar coming up. Calling my father to ask for financial assistance was the worst, but maybe a blessing. He said he would not give me a penny. He had done EST 30 years ago, and considers the group to be shysters who perform group hypnosis. I would be a lamb to the slaughter, he said.

I heard you have to relive past traumas during the seminar. The concept of reliving my experience in a Mexican jail is scary, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LInECO0G5n0

hi

yes?

You guys will enjoy this: first interview Werner Erhard has given in decades, over lunch:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/feb214a8-8f88-11e1-98b1-00144feab49a.html

read that yesterday and thought about posting it here. kinda curious about the harvard professor working with him

so i went to one of these things. someone in my family has been going and calling everybody like every weekend trying to get us to go. it turns out it was pretty much the "Do What You Feel" Simpsons episode. at one part I watched a video with words like "ALIVENESS" zooming past. i told my host they are peddling vague and empty self help stuff. it was kind of weird. at a few points the main lady doing the event was employing some sneaky psychic tactics on people who would stand up and volunteer very personal information about themselves. someone was talking about how being better at nutrition would make her happier and the main lady quickly turned that into "You are not happy!"

the whole thing was 3 hours long and i was shocked to see the 3-day course is 3 days of 13+ hour days! this is on Fri, Sat, Sunday, too, so it is eating up these people's entire weekend! and of course there is constant applauding, constant affirmation, constant re-assurance that the program works!

towards the end they switched into something more specific, a break-down of language, kind of a peek into the whole weird de-programming they have going on. they said people are made of problems. and problems control us through language. the use of "but" being a construct you use to create some kind of unreality, a sort of avatar of yourself who has this narrative trying them down, keeping them from true freedom. "i want to go on vacation but i can't afford to." "i want to sign up for landmark but i can't afford to." they said change the "but" to "and", so that the problem is more agreeable. at this point she was saying these words held no real power, because it didn't make any sense to say "i want to go on vacation but the sun is up". so it doesn't matter what you use to justify anything. for that matter, it doesn't matter that you can't afford to sign up for landmark. don't let your fear of spending money hold you back.

honestly it was weird. really bizarre.

oh yeah they kept saying a "blank slate" was the desired effect of these programs

nyt profiled werner late last year:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/fashion/the-return-of-werner-erhard-father-of-self-help.html?_r=0

still highly recommend the bartley biography

God, all of that culty shit is so sinister but also so predictable. They all employ the same brainwashy tactics so they're at least easy to spot once you know what to look out for. And I can share that information with you at my five-day lock-in seminar. Don't let your fear of success hold you back from paying me $5,000 for the privilege.

I met a guy on the LRT awhile back who wanted me to go to one of these so I said "yes, tell me more!!!" because I wanted to bone him, he was relentless after that in trying to get me to go even though I was like "let's meet at your place first" and I think he finally caught wind that I was never going to go because he unfriended me on FB :(

Yes, I have shamelessly low standards

A good friend is becoming swept up in this thing and my concern is growing. She took the introductory 3-day seminar last summer and tried to recruit me aka "invited me to attend her graduation from the Forum." I politely passed and googled Landmark as soon as I got home. Brought back memories of woking with some EST-heads in the mid-80s, though LF sounds like a slightly less obnoxious version of EST. Puzzling that my friend would get involved, we're not super-close but she's always seemed a dynamic and centered person, successfully juggling a demanding profession and various creative pursuits. Not a searcher in other words but hey, we all go through times of self-doubt existential crisis etc. Recently it's come up that she's taking subsequent courses ($$$$ right? not sure she can afford it) and every few months tries to lure me into an introductory session. Worryingly she's now embarked on a borderline-manic "project" concocted by her Landmark "life coaches" that seems to be stressing her out to the point of exhaustion. I've indicated my concern in general terms, telling her she is literally the last person I know who doesn't seem to have enough going on her life leaving unspoken "why are you running yourself ragged? you have absolutely nothing to prove to anybody." IDK, maybe it's not my place to say that. But if - when - she tries to recruit me again I'm dropping the bomb on what bothers me about this outfit.

bottom line: it might not be a cult but it's a rip off from what I'm seeing and hearing.

My understanding is that LF basically is a rebranded EST.

Anyway, my sympathies. I had a similar situation with a friend a few years back and it really knocked me for a loop. She also tried to recruit me before I figured out what she was involved with (different cult) and, when I confronted her with my concerns, she instantly came back with, "Lots of people think this is a cult but it's not." Which, given that I never used the c-word, basically cemented my belief that this was in fact a cult.

it's definitely a cult. i'm close to someone that did Landmark and for a while every sunday at the exact same time he would call his entire family and friend, like making the rounds, from the parking lot of the place. they arrange the sessions so that there are breaks where everyone is supposed to do some on-sight recruiting at 7pm on Saturdays and Sundays.

ugh, recently he's told me he wants to pursue a career as a "life coach", using those exact words. i need to check in on him soon...

Not technically Landmark but seems to be operating on the same principles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/nyregion/nxivm-women-branded-albany.html?_r=0

what are the principles that you think they share?

I had no idea Landmark Forum was part of some bigger thing started by Erhard, linked to Ivies and Fortune 500s etc. That's so depressing.

Went on a date once with someone into Landark Forum. When it became clear I was skeptical she asked "well what's YOUR approach to self-improvement." I mumbled something like "uh, I try stuff, and it it doesn't work I try something else." She later dropped Landmark and has a fabulously successful career.