TS - Bond v. Bourne

For me, it goes like this:

Actors - Connery>>>Damon>>Dalton>Craig>>>Brosnan>Lazenby>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moore

Movies -
I still love the first three Bond movies as movies - Dr. No, From Russia w/ Love, Goldfinger. For other favorite Bond flicks,
- The Living Daylights is underrated as hell, had a great supporting cast for Dalton (also underrated as all hell), especially when you consider the ridiculous breadth of the story arc. Pretty well held it together from Gibralter to English to Eastern Europe to Northern Africa to Afghanistan.
- Although I dislike him highly, The Spy Who Loved Me is Moore's best, and its pretty good. Jaws, the whole Pyramid scene, bidding on the microfilm. Solid Bond, and early in Moore's tenure - before he got lazy and fat.
- Casino Royale was fast-paced, (relatively) low-tech, and focused on the character of Bond. Some say it was done this way in response to the first Bourne flick and its success, and I can't disagree. I need to see Craig do it again, but the distance his character traveled from the first kills in black and white to the final scene on Lake Cuomo (I think?) indicates that Bond's growth as an agent will be at least a theme in this new version's films. This one probably had the worst torture scene out of all these movies put together.

I like the Bourne movies, especially the first, for their sustained suspense and well-done chase and fight scenes, but, by the third one, the rest of the movie seemed like filler b/t the chase and fight scenes.

I go with Bond for movies.

Characters: I put them in a straight-up fight-off.

Bourne beats the shit out of all the Bonds except young Connery Bond, Craig Bond and maybe Lazenby Bond. Young Connery Bond was a judo guy. Craig Bond appears to be a krav maga/muy thai style guy. Lazenby strikes me as a bare knuckles brawler.

Bourne would destroy Lazenby 19 times out of 20, but you have to give a puncher a chance some of the time.

Bourne beats Craig 7 times out of 10, but only if there are weapons/cookbooks/random objects. Otherwise, this one is a push.

Bourne beats Connery 8 times out of 10, unless there is a bomb about to blow up, at which point Connery becomes unbeatable.

So, unless there is a nuclear bomb threat imminent, Bourne takes the fight.

Villans: Take the big five Bourne bad guys - Paris Apartment Fight Guy, Clive Owen, German House Fight Guy, Russian Hit Man, and Desh.

We never saw either Russian Hit Man or Clive Owen actually throw down, so, without weapons or cars, these guys lose.

So, Paris Fight Guy - of the same fight school as Bourne. Tough, resourceful, but maybe a little too impetuous to wade back in (see getting fucked up by ball point pen). Also, he committed suicide at the end of the fight.

German Fight Guy - better than Paris Fight Guy, and more resourceful - used kitchen items and had a gun hidden. Similar fighting style to Bourne, but maybe more jab and distance strike than straight overcome with power fighter. Came real close to beating Bourne, but got blowed up.

Desh - Badass acrobatic fighting style, with good combination of punches and holds.

Of these three, I think I have to go with Desh, but German Apartment Guy is a close second.

So, taking Desh as the representative of the Bourne bad guys, who would he fight from the Bond movies? I left out the evil masterminds - Goldfinger, Blofeld, Dr. No, etc. - b/c there really wasn't an analogue to the Bourne movies. Chris Cooper? David Strathairn? Doesn't do it. So, I went with the "henchmen" bad guys from Bond.

I don't think Desh could take all of the villans, but certainly a few of the big ones - Robert Shaw, regardless of how badass he is as Donovan Grant, would be no match for Desh - too stiff as a fighter, without super strength to make up for it. OddJob would prolly fuck him up if he got a hold of him, but Desh is just too damn fast. Jaws would present a big problem as he's pretty much unkillable, and once he's got his hands on you, you're done. Necros, from the Living Daylights, would present a good fight - seemed pretty well trained, much like the Treadstone guys.

I have to go with Jaws as being able to totally fuck Desh up, with OddJob probably doing the same with a little luck. Desh would put a hurting on either one, though.

Straight up, one on one fights, Bond guys take it most of the time, but Desh and company could do some damage, to be sure.

Women: Marie Kruetz and Nicky Parsons, while attractive to be sure, cannot even step into the same room as Honey Ryder, Pussy Galore, or Jinx. The Bond girls have maintained a spectacular level of hotness for over 40 years. Unfair, but no contest. A young Jane Seymour as Solitaire? Barbara Bach as Anya Amasova? Sorry.

Cars: The cars go to Bond. Various Aston Martins and Lotuses, and the BMW Z8. The car CHASES, however, go to Bourne - longer, more desparate, no gadgets, lots more collateral damage. An honorable mention must go to both the DB4 chase with Tilly Masterson outside Geneva in Goldfinger, and the BMW 750 car chase via remote in Tomorrow Never Dies. But, as mentioned, both of these have as integral parts gadgets and special mods. Neither match either the chase in the Mini through Paris or the Volga chase through Moscow.

So, that leaves the following:

Actors: Bond
Movies: Bond
Characters: Bourne
Villains: Bond
Women: Bond
Cars: Tie

Bond in a landslide, but a lot of this has to do with his staying power as a character/franchise. Longevity has its advantages.

you have given this a lot of thought

bourne wins, easily

I am bored at work today.

I watched Casino Royale on DVD and I think they stand a good chance of revitalizing Bond with Daniel Craig. It's a much better movie when you can FFWD through the opening credits (aauuugh. bad flash animation with even worse backing song, totally terrible).

One of the things you seem to be forgetting is that Bond's longevity is also his major downside - I mean License To Kill is a Bond movie, for crying out loud - there are some really terrible pieces of canon you've got to put up with to be a Bond completist. I saw Goldeneye on cable a while back (finally) and jesus christ that piece of junk is right up there with Moonraker. The Broccoli family is right about one thing - there is a cyclical saw wave of painful OTTness in the Bond franchise history.

Bourne is great on his own merits. But keep in mind that nearly everybody posting to this thread has had more sex than that poor dude. One guy makes you really wish you had that job and the other guy makes you kind of feel sorry for him. Flip a coin!

I should say I recently re-watched CR on DVD. saying I watched in on DVD makes me seem like some kind of 007 dilettante. Fuck that noise.

Both are good points - I totally went with what I percieved as the "best" of Bond, which he had a lot of of b/c there were a lot of him to choose from overall.

And Bourne definately channels his pent-up no-ass getting angst through the end of the gun/knife/rolled up magazine that he's killing someone with.

Bond simply grabs a bitch has "hazh hish way with her."

Yes, and then she dies. Inconvenient, that.

Altho Marie wasn't doing so well last I checked, either, so I guess that's a wash.

inconvenient for HER maybe

no, laurel, it's actually v v convenient!

xp high-five, broski

i didn't care much for casino royale. yeah, craig is a badass. it was played too seriously to get away with its implausible/silly stuff, unlike most bonds of yore. and judging on the basis of a straight-up action movie, i'll take bourne.

see the thing is Bond is just a complete sociopath, no excuses. Bourne has this big back story where it turns out he was brainwashed into being a murder machine or some such. That's the 21st century for you, we just figured out that the 20th century was an asshole and are trying to come to terms with it.

"my dad beat me a lot but I'll never beat my kids I swear"

^^^^ Bourne

Thing is, the best, most rounded Bond in my view is The Living Daylights, but when compared to the second and third Bourne films, not only are the latter's characters far more sympathetic and believable, but the plot's better, the twists are better, and there's more excitement. It's a whole-scale upgrade.

Bond wins on four things: jokes, baddies, glamour, and hich-octane action sequences (when it comes to action sequences full-stop, without massive explosions or stunts, Bourne has Bond beaten with the Clive Owen duel in film one, the car-chase in film two, and the Waterloo scene in film three). I'll agree that Casino Royale had a little more to it than that (the opening conversation between Craig and Green was surprisingly well-scripted, and the directing was edgier than we've come to expect), but those four stock elements comprise what is Bond. Bourne has no such list; he's a human being, not an action-figure. Like I say, though, Craig has helped to redress the balance somewhat.

btw Moonraker is pretty funny shit if you're in the mood

hugo drax rulez

Some more love for The Living Daylights! I love that movie. Also, it has Maryam d'Abo as hot cellist/KGB assasin.

I love that movie. The cello sled chase into Switzerland! Awesome.

Obv., I am the Bond Dork.

Aside from Dalton being pretty good, it has a deadly milkman, JB helping out Al-Qaeda, JB driving off a plane in a car, and yeah, that cello scene. AWES.

Actually, latest Bond has latest Bourne beaten in one respect: the obligatory 'parkour' scene was better in Bond.

parkour is so fucking fashionable nowadays

"my dad beat me a lot but I'll never beat my kids I swear BUT FIRST I NEED TO KILL MY DAD"

my biggest problem with all the post-connery bonds with the possible exception of brosnan (who sucks for other reasons) is that they seem too nice and trustworthy. I wouldn't turn my back on Sean Connery 007 for a half second unless I was drunk in the dark.
Also bourne has no max zorin:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Christopherwalken007.jpg

The parkour scene in CR was like the traditional over, under and around model of parkour vs. RUN THE FUCK THROUGH EVERYTHING.

Bourne's was neat in the "Oh, so on TOP of being able to speak most Western language fluently, being nigh indestructible, and one of the three most deadly guys on the planet, he ALSO has a compass more accurate than any Naval vessel."

How the fuck didn't he get lost? I did like the landing on Tunisian family's breakfast table. That was cool.

to be honest vis a vis spatial navigation bourne's head is probably on a lot straighter than the poor cameramen in that sequence

Funniest moment in Bond: motion-sensitive bomb in Never Say Never Again
Funniest moment in Bourne: "We have a CODE TEN abort!"

verdict: Bond, by a hair.

i didn't see tom jenkinson on the bourne ultimatum credits, but i'm struggling to think how else they put together those fast-shot camera sequences.

funniest moment in bond: denise richards, on bond going outside a submarine that contains a nuclear weapon that is about to destroy istanbul, "no james, it's too dangerous!"

no one has yet mentioned that the latest Bond was re-stylized partly because of the success of the Bourne movies.

This is absolutely true.

BTW - my wife, who I THOUGHT was a total Bond Dork too, came out to me last night - She likes BROSNAN the best, and likes Bourne better than all of them.

We start therapy next week. How could I have been SO blind?

did Connery ever do a mag interview where he talks about how his character showed "the human cost of violence" like Damon has? HAY MATT U FUNNY HARVARD BOY

I can certainly imagine 007 giving bourne a completely emotionless one-word response to the "look what they make you give" shit before shooting him through a penthouse window and making a smug quip

A completely different take, but with the same result -

Well, the easy answer is of course Bond. And I have to go with that easy answer. Here is my reasoning. The Bourne series takes the shit too seriously. And this is what I mean by that. The premise of Bourne is that there was a special double secret program that no one in the government knows about except for an elite few, that was set up to make super soldiers/super spies/super heros. Okay, this is something we've heard before, plenty of times starting with Captain America. I can swallow it, it's relatively plausible (sort of) but it requires you to use your imagination and not start asking a lot of technical questions (exactly what do they do to make them super heroes? what is the process, do they use drugs? computer chips? clockwork orange brain washing? how exactly does all that work? No, you just have to buy into it. My point is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. If you want a realistic spy thriller, and be all super serious, (ex: Munich, if you saw that, or even the Jack Ryan movies) you can't have super heroes in there too. If you DO have super heroes, and there is nothing wrong with that, there needs to be some sort of feel that says "yeah, we know this is a stretch, but just go with us on this, it's fun" But the Bourne series is sort of condescending in that it it refuses to admit that he's a super hero, and is like, "no this is real you idiot, you didn't know there were super heroes? well there are, and you are stupid for not knowing it"

Anyway, the Bond chicks have been hotter and more numerous. Bourne has better car chases (although I do like the rodger moore chase when he's driving through the olive groves in Greece in that mini-like euro car), but Bond has better cars overall. Sean Connery is awesome, and his movies are untouchable. Even the rodger moore movies were redeeming in some ways, the submarine lotus/Chris Walken in a blimp/Jaws. I think I liked Daniel Craig and casino royale better than the Bourne movies. Bond has better music.

But the bottom line is that if you are dealing with super heroes, and I include both Bourne and Bond in that catagory (laser watches, Laird commando surfing, huge evil underwater fortresses that raise up out of the water, matrix kung-fu fighting, super soldier serum) then you have to treat it with a certain amount of tounge and cheek attitude.

This from a friend of mine who I also asked this question of

Bond has better music

first among rongs

Bond chicks have been more numerous, but Stiles & Potente are hotter than most of them. Xenia Onatopp and the good Russian from Goldeneye are a little bit hotter, though.

Stiles & Potente are hotter than most of them

OTM x 10000, they're both far more 'real' and therefore sexy than most Bond girls.

However...

the good Russian from Goldeneye

sizzling

Bond has better music

first among rongs

oh yeah! John Barry can't hold a candle to... ummm.... ummmm...

the bourne soundtrack is awesome, way better, on average, than bond. the best bond music wasn't even in any of the films, it being the propellorheads' OHMSS cover.

WHAT!?!?!?!

Shirley Bassey.

Duran Duran.

Jason Bourne, pwned

jason bourne soundtrack is AWESOME TECHNO, james bond is that bloody orchestra again

ok the orchestra had some stunning moments, but bourne soundtrack i thought was amazing.

Track listing
By John Powell:

1. "Six Weeks Ago" – 4:31
2. "Tangiers" – 7:40
3. "Thinking of Marie" – 3:51
4. "Assets and Targets" – 7:18
5. "Faces Without Names" – 3:31
6. "Waterloo" – 10:38
7. "Coming Home" – 3:19
8. "Man Verses Man" – 5:46
9. "Jason Is Reborn" – 4:04

By Moby:

10. "Extreme Ways" – 4:22

http://www.trailblazers-info.com/images/london/UK-Shirley_Bassey.jpg

GOLD-FINGAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!

Ok so if we needed any further confirmation that jagger is a total waste of everyone's time now he's telling us John Barry's 007 music sucks compared to moby taking the piss.

You never cease to amaze me, louis. I mean that in the most horrible way.

http://www.trailblazers-info.com/images/london/UK-Shirley_Bassey.jpg

DIAMONDS ARE FOR-EVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!

http://media.outnow.ch/Movies/Posters/Store/b/bourne_supremacy.2004.de.jpg

not all 007 music was john barry, and moby did, like, ONE song on bourne. i'm not talking about moby, i'm talking about this powell fella and the incredible ambience his sounds add to the film.

tombot, you're a cunt, and i mean that in the most profound way, not that you give a shit, because you're a cunt.

cunts are so pointless to engage.

Oh dear I've been called the c-word

if you wanted to "engage" anybody I suspect you would have made some sort of argument instead of just dismissing orchestral music as inferior to amon tobin knockoffs (who is a knockoff of what - oh.)

A lot of Bond stuff isn't the original Goldfinger-era Barry excitement, it's recycled, cliched filler. The Bourne soundtrack sounds fresh, exciting, and tense throughout. Therefore, on average, the Bourne is better, no matter how high the Barry peaks were.

You clearly know what you're talking about re: Tobin, and I don't; all I have to go on is my sight unseen judgement, and I remember leaving the cinema after each Bourne thinking '...oh, and the soundtrack was awesome!', as opposed to leaving Die Another Day thinking 'please fuck off and die Madonna, either that or team up with William Orbit again asap'.

i rather enjoy engaging cunts

:( i actually feel kinda bad calling tombot a cunt now

a grouch, perhaps. a cantankerous web-tyrant possibly. but probably not a cunt, especially if we're going by stevem's testimony.

still loved the bourne soundtracks tho. especially in the last two films.

over-use of especially = bad english, read post before submitting

I enjoyed Goldeneye a lot but didn't like the other Brosnans

for Bond music nothing beats '007 And Counting'

I think we perhaps have a generational issue here. I have to date attempted to avoid the brosnan bonds as much as possible; I am however a massive, massive fan of Barry's scoring in the Connery films. I also dig the italo disco silliness of For Your Eyes Only, but yeah since then I would have to agree there's nothing to write home about in any of them. The original OHMSS needs no dressing up in my opinion, I love that track.

THUNDERBALL SUITE

Yeah, y'see, the more recent Bonds are far fresher in my mind than the older ones, which do, it's true, have awesome scores (actually, You Only Live Twice might be the best), but haven't burned themselves into my consciousness quite as irksomely as the newer ones.

The original OHMSS is awesome, the fantastic tune being the reason why the propellerheads' version kicked so much ass, taking an already-awesome arrangement and turning it into a superb techno workout (which incorporates a bit of YOLT in the midsection, just to affirm its brilliance).

The reason I rate Bourne slightly higher overall is that Powell is frequently soundtracking mental decrepitude and ambiguous memory, not to mention real, human panic, states of being which offer more scope for affecting musical accompaniment. He does it fantastically. I've already said somewhere that the harrowing track playing during JB's climactic meeting with Finney is among the best film music I've heard.

Some more love for The Living Daylights!

TLD is one of the Bond movies that I own on DVD. It's fantastic...

I like the Bourne movies, but there's two reasons why I can't rate them higher (if we're comparing franchise-to-franchise) than Bond.
1. The rooftop fight scene in You Only Live Twice when the camera pulls back and the music cranks up.
2. Bond kicking the car over the cliff in For Your Eyes Only.

i like 'licence to kill', especially because it's got some 'temple of doom' inspired violence in there + villains played by robert davi, benicio del toro, and anthony zerbe + exploding heads, rapey bad guys, man eating sharks, dude getting ground up in a conveyer belt. totally nasty little flick.

mental decrepitude and ambiguous memory, not to mention real, human panic, states of being which offer more scope for affecting musical accompaniment.

well maybe that's how you live your life but I assure you I prefer drinking hard liquor and planning how to kill rich people

Powell is frequently soundtracking mental decrepitude and ambiguous memory, not to mention real, human panic, states of being which offer more scope for affecting musical accompaniment.

this is like a perfect storm of bullshit. burned-out university profs would give you a B+, for real.

he knows, he saves his B+ material just for us

I love slaughtering the wealthy as much anyone. More, probably. But try as I might I never really want to sit through a Bond these days, even the Connery movies. I can identify with sociopaths in film just fine, but not this particular sociopath. I find Bond less interesting than any of the quickly-killed Bourne baddies, even - they have more personality.

I didn't explain that very well, did I?

Bond music conveys danger and a grandiose sense of adventure, only occasionally intruding onto emotion.

Bourne music needs to supply a throbbing pulse and drive for the action sequences, but it also has to soundtrack JB's emotional turmoil and ascent through doubt into realisation. It actually combines the two, mixing excitement and humanity in equal measure, much like the best electronic music.

Both sorts are great in their own ways.

Moore's Bond could beat Bourne with a swift, light karate-chop to the neck in an ironic arch of an eyebrow. All without getting a crease in his safari suit. And you know it.