Belgian politics

time to call it a day

HI DERE

Yeah, that article is pretty much OTM. We don't necessarily hate each other, we just live in two different countries and only feel Belgian when someone/some team wins something in sports. Politicians win votes by saying they're taking a "firm" stance against the other community. (British people: compare with how British politicians become popular when they say "firm" and "against" and "Europe" a lot - does that mean every Brit wants to sever all ties with Europe? No, it doesn't.)

The general Flemish feeling nowadays is that Wallonia doesn't want to give up the financial gains they have by having Flanders as their partner. In essence, that's a big part of the problem: for every big change in regional/federal status (the big "staatshervorming" that Flanders wants - more power to the regions), parliament has to have a 2/3 majority. Or: Wallonia can vote against this "do you want to receive less money from Flanders?" (which this big change would probably mean to them) and Flanders can't do anything about that. So Wallonia has already won and Belgium CANNOT be split up.

(it's not very simple, let's just keep it at that)

I thought the only politics in belgium was waffles vs. chocolate.

Is there any Walloon independence movement at all, or is it just Flemings who want to break away?

One thing I learned recently is that there are twice as many Flemings as Walloons - I'd always assumed it was about 50/50 (and yet off-hand I can't think of a single internationally famous Fleming, although I can think of several Walloons - Magritte, Simenon, Hergé etc).

If even the Belgians can't hold it together, I guess there's not much chance for the Iraqis, is there?

The only way it could be split up in the future is when both communities would become just as successful, economically. Which they aren't at the moment.

Brussels? Nobody knows. Flanders wants to keep it, Wallonia wants to keep it, Brussels wants to remain Brussels, it's like our very own little Jerusalem (but without religion) (not until muslims realise they're becoming a very very big minority in Brussels and deserve more say in what goes on, which is only a matter of time, probably)

So there's no chance Flanders of declaring unilateral independence?

Walloon independence movement? Not that I know of, no. (there is the FDF, but that's just a party that aims to defend the rights of French speaking people in and around Brussels)

Probably not, no. Too many royalists still in powerful positions. And you know how it is in the west right now: people are too complacent/lazy for revolutions (it would cost too much money, instability, don't want to give up our hard earned savings, etc).

(that second paragraph was to "so there's no chance...")

Yeah, another argument I keep hearing against unilateral separation is that what would reamin of Belgium (ie. Wallonia) would block the independent Flanders' entry into the EU (which it would need to re-apply to). I don't know how likely it would be for such a small country to block the accession of another "natural" EU country's accession, but the Greek example shows how much leverage you can get from vetoing EU decisions.

I find it saddening and disgusting that Flemish people/part of Belgium wants to sever its ties and just cut the Walloons off. This should be a time when we unite, take care of eachother, respect the other. I know it's not as simple as that and that, probably looking from outside (Belgium), it looks quite *silly* taht we can't form a proper government.

One thing I learned recently is that there are twice as many Flemings as Walloons - I'd always assumed it was about 50/50

I think part of the problem was that historically the country was ran as a french speaking state, even though most people did not speak French. Hence sulkiness.

I think they should just have a few beers together and cop themselves on.

If it comes to war, do you reckon that Wallonia would be able to cut a corridor through to Brussels?

it won't come to war.

Xpost I wonder how many Walloons migrated after the economic depression.

Do Flemings and Walloons intermarry much? Are there many Walloons in Flanders and vice versa?

If it comes to war, do you reckon that Wallonia would be able to cut a corridor through to Brussels?

Perhaps the Americans can invade, and all will be well.

Do Flemings and Walloons intermarry much? Are there many Walloons in Flanders and vice versa?

From a friend who lives in Belgium, the whole Walloon-Flemish identity thing is far more fluid than people like to think, with their being at least one major politician in one language community who is blatantly a native speaker of the other language, but no one likes to bring this up.

Apart from the linguistic thing, I wonder are there big cultural differences between the two communities? I mean, do they eat different food, play different sports etc

I guess it depends on your position, people here like to stress the differences between themselves and the other community, but as a foreigner (French) living here, I find for instance that Wallons have much more in common with Flemish people than with the French.

Flemish point of view: "what's the point of staying together? It only costs us money!"

Wallonian point of view: "what's the point of separating? It would only cost us money!"

(not even kidding, it's that simple, pretty much)

In my class there's a woman who used to live in the Wallooons. She's been living in the Flanders for a decade or two (even more I think). You can still hear her accent. Another woman in my class dismissed her accent saying she should, by now, speak proper Dutch. *shakes head*

I find for instance that Wallons have much more in common with Flemish people than with the French.

I think this is also true of Flemish people and the Dutch. If you want a laugh ask some Dutch speaking Belgians what they make of the Dutch.

my take on Belgium is that when the language issue came up, they should have made the whole country bilingual rather than carving it up into the two (or three, or four) language areas. But whatever.

it won't come to war.

So you say. Do you reckon the Germans will invade to rescue their linguistic compatriots in the eastern provinces?

Those compatriots have held an informal vote a while ago and they'd rather join an independent Wallonia, if it ever came to a breakup. (they'd prefer Belgium to stay together though)

when the language issue came up, they should have made the whole country bilingual

When the language issue came up: the french half and the ruling class in flanders spoke french, the working class in flanders (majority) spoke dutch, but had no say in what happened. The first thing they wanted was for their part to become completely flemish, hence the current situation.

That only happened bit by bit and not in one big revolution, which is why Belgium still exists and Flanders isn't independent.

There was a pretty interesting article in the French press the other day, focusing on the specific case of Brussels, arguing that the future of that city probably lied with all the foreigners (both economic immigrants and Euro-people) who don't recognize themselves in any of the communities. They interviewed the director of the Flemish National Theatre, which had to temporarily move to one of the most North African areas of the city, who said that in order to attract an audience they had to look beyond the exclusive linguistic community.

The first thing they wanted was for their part to become completely flemish, hence the current situation

yeah. I know. I'm saying what they should have wanted and should have done.

There's an interesting post on all this on the Crooked Timber blog:

http://crookedtimber.org/2007/09/19/the-ingredients-of-the-belgian-cocktail/

Still no sign of forming a government it seems. Could this be the endgame for Belgium?

Of course not.

Also, Belgium is trilingual, no?

German bit pretty tiny though. There are probably ten times as many Arabic speakers in Belgium.

That's a *very* good post, Zelda. Thanks for the link.

xpost I know, I just wanted to be a pedant. hah

So what do you think, Stan, will we (err, Belgium) break up? I don't know, I can hardly think this is gonna end up in a break-up. It's a crisis, yes, but I doubt it'll end like this...

this is hugely interesting, i hadn't a clue any of this was going on. i'm really glad that ireland has never had to deal with anything like this :/

Actually to be completely honest, I haven't been following this much. I know it's been 100 days, but apart from that it really doesn't interest me all that much. Maybe I'm a bit too naive and think we'll "make up".

From what I understand, Belgium has had previous crises like this so I guess this one can be "resolved" too. But I'm struck by one of the comments on the blog post I posted upthread:

my feeling is that once political parties divide up along ethnic/linguistic/sectarian lines, instead of national socio-economic lines, then it’s only a matter of time before democracy becomes unworkable.

To be honest, I don't think there's any simple solution to this. No big constitutional change = flemish politicians lose all of their voters because that's what they promised. A big constitutional change = walloon politicians lose all of their voters because that's what they promised wouldn't happen.

"Breaking up" probably not, no, but ever since the 60s, the only way things have happened is away from the federal government and in the direction of the regions (more power to the regions). This has never been a problem before, but now, somehow, it is.

(xpost)

Belgium has had previous crises like this so I guess this one can be "resolved" too.

Yes, but in the past these crises were always solved by: "if flanders gets x, then wallonia gets y" - 50/50. Over the last years, a lot of flemish people have started to see this as unfair, since the populations aren't 50/50 and the wealth isn't either.

Flanders doesn't want to "buy" power from the walloons anymore and the walloons don't want to give away that power for free all of a sudden.

(... is what I'm led to believe by flemish press)

So. We still here. A whole lot has happened, but also nothing at all. Hmm.

Have you got a government yet?

Nope. Nobody knows what's going on at the moment, there's talk of a partial government that would only manage the social/economic stuff and not the dutch/french stuff that's been the main problem, but not every party that has won would want to be in a government like that AND they would lose a lot of votes next time because voters won't forgive them this "we'll find an answer later" solution.

Over the last years, a lot of flemish people have started to see this as unfair, since the populations aren't 50/50 and the wealth isn't either.

are you from Flanders?

Belgium is very interesting, but I have nothing really to add beyond "can't you all just get along?" comments posted above. I reckon any country is fucked once people in it start seeing it as divided into "us" and "them" - you start seeing everything in terms of them getting more than you get, or them getting more than they are entitled to on the basis of population, weatlth (an odd criteria, as anyone who has ever drawn the dole will testify) or whatever.

The most incisive comment on Belgium I've read lately is from a friend who lives there, and he was saying that one real probelm is that the language media in the country are completely failing to report what the actual grievances of the other side are, so everyone is just seeing them as a bunch of whiny fuckers. This might have changed in the last few weeks.

No, it's very OTM. And yes, I'm from Flanders and I might have been temporarily influenced by the media there, yeah. This us & them thing IS ridiculous, but it's also kind of true, we know almost nothing about each other and the election results can vary a lot between the two parts of the country (since people from Flanders can only vote for Dutch language parties and people from Wallonia can only vote for French language parties, half of the government is made up of people half of the country don't even know).

If Belgium can go 5 months without a government and without it visibly impacting on people's lives, you've got to wonder what the government's for... I mean I assume everything is already very devolved in Belgium and it's local entities providing all the services etc.

It's strange that Brussels is the forefront of this two-way linguistic struggle, because whenever I go there it just seems so incredibly ethnically diverse. In the suburb where my friends live, I'm guessing both Walloons and Flemings would be pretty much in a minority, compared with the North African population. In fact, I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that there were more Arabic-speaking people in Brussels than Dutch speakers.

I reckon any country is fucked once people in it start seeing it as divided into "us" and "them" - you start seeing everything in terms of them getting more than you get, or them getting more than they are entitled to on the basis of population, weatlth (an odd criteria, as anyone who has ever drawn the dole will testify) or whatever.

So Britain is fucked as well then?

It might be. Scottish independence isn't a total impossibility.

More like a raging certainty if the Tories win the next General Election

So Britain is fucked as well then?

I think we should ask popular band Selfish Cunt for an opinion on this one.

More generally, what do you reckon the Us and Them are in British politics? Scottish and English? Or something else?

Mitya OTM - but as I understand this used to be the case up until 20 years ago and now this appears as hopelessly idealistic

Is this still true though? I have the impression that any job in Brussels now requires being fully bilingual

Roffle. And we need all to be happy and get along.

What would happen if they (whoever that would be) simply required all political parties to organize and run across all of Belgium, not just in one half or the other?

That's what I mentioned above (albeit in cruder terms). It's a simplistic (though ideal) idea which is unworkable and will never be proposed cause, I mean, we can't get along seperately so how would it go if we were all under the same (Belgian) banner?

Y'know, this whole complex "living seperate" is just so difficult and "tangly." When I hear my husband speak about how he used to work for the government and how that worked, I'm just even more baffled.

Living seperately. It would seem my English is turning out almost as bad as my French. hah

Also the idea that we would seperate and then "handed over" to other countries: ridiculous. That will never happen.

I know. I just said it in a kind of snotty "If you can't be grown up enough to manage your own affairs, small country, then you might as well have your independence taken away and get subsumed into a larger country and be forgotten. Then maybe you'd (broadly speaking, not you personally, nath) realize what you'd given up.
Unfortunately international politics doesn't work the same as disciplining a small child.

And, as I said above, I don't believe in the propagation of hundreds of tiny states. All it does it double the numbers of the political and bureaucratic class, who by definition don't create value in the world.

Belgium, though, already has so many layers of government that splitting it up might actually reduce the size of the political/bureaucratic class!

true dat

This may have been covered, but does anyone have a recommendation for an English language book on the history of Belgium? I'm particularly interested in how the language prickology issue emerged and what Belgium was like beforehand, and whether pre-linguistic divide Belgium had national insitutions (parties, unions, associations of various kinds) that the language issue's emergence then split up.

My impression of Belgium in the past is that it basically worked as a francophone country, even though most people were not francophone; I am interested in seeing how correct this impression is.

I'd be interested in this as well, cause, by GOD (merde de dieu) I always get headaches when my husband explains it to me. :-)

Can't recommend a book, but this wikipedia page is pretty informative:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Belgium

I was interested to see how Brussels became francophone. Apparently Flemish remained the majority vernacular there until as late as 1950...

Well being teh capital of a country where the royal family and its administration exclusively spoke French, it's kinda obvious how the city would itself become francophone. I guess the working class spoke the brusseleir dialect until WW2

A lot of royal families and their administration spoke French! The Romanovs, the Hapsburgs etc. Didn't turn all capital cities francophone! Seems the Napoleonic occupation was the key factor for Brussels.

yeah, but in Brussels they had a ready source of francophone people to give all the government jobs too, which would make it a bit more likely that the capital would go frenchy.

Leterme & co have decided to not ask parliament for their vote of confidence.

what does that mean?

and on this note i'm going out to have a duvel and think of belgium...

That they're too afraid of the vote results and don't want to give even their own majority partners the chance to vote against them. And santé!

Belgian PM faces calls to resign over Fortis sale

Oh, Belgiumpaws... when will the hurting stop?

Never, we're all masochists.

Hahah. Yeah. Leterme: I R MORAN.

True, this is beyond faux-pas.

Still, I sincerely feel for Belgium. The last few years I watched Belgium slide into a political abyss. Was it amusing? Yes. But more so, it's so utterly sad to see Belgium decaying like this. I thought it would be the one European country (bar the tiny countries like Luxembourg et al) to escape the post-post-capitalist bitchy outrageaous shout-it-all-out post-cynicism disease and keep a kind of Old European romanticism. It's what killed The Netherlands, for instance. Even with all this shit going on, these political shenanigans still seemed like unharmful games to me, like a bad dream but a lucid one, knowing you'll wake up. If that makes any sense here, now. I know it's too much out there to be true, it's too dreamy, but for some unfounded reason, for some gut-feeling, I always kept believing in dreamy Belgium. Now I won't say the dream is dead, but it does seem to be dying.

Nathalie, i will be in belgium in May. i'm giving you five months advanced notice!

[i don't have anything to say about the political situation in belgium]

hehe Okay! See you in five months then. :-)

It's so utterly sad to see this happening. If this continues not only will suffer not only politically but also financially - this whole BHV crap and the inability to just... well... govern is fucking up our country beyond belief. Maybe my husband is right: go to Brussels PROTEST, SHOUT and DEMAND change. I long back for the days of Dehaene. He ruled big time. Eyskens... Martens... These were old schoolers who oozed power. They did what was best. Also probably still an old boy's club. These days it seems to have disappeared... A good but also a bad thing. Leterme is a wimp in comparison. What the fuck was he thinking? I realize it was a crisis but you still have to follow the rules. "Moran"

This is just fucked. :-( I hate what's happening.

I am thinking of closing my Fortis account

You are? Why for?

not that I'm really worried about my money, but from a customer support point of view and general transparency, they have been pathetic.

The government resigns tonight, so I guess that's that for Leterme's already crisis-Cabinet it was in the first place, innit?

Is this the death of the Old Politics in Belgium, like people keep saying? The 'Belgique de papa'? Commentators keep pointing out Leterme probably thought he could get away with this, but was mistaken badly. Thirty years earlier a 'deal' with the politically appointed was still a posibility, but today it isn't anymore. Any views? Will there be new elections soon?

So what do the Belgian ilxorz think of the results? and who is this guy Bart de Wever - should he be taken seriously?

Pretty predictable, I guess. Two completely different results in Flanders & Wallonia, they are two completely different countries after all.

Wallonia: MR doesn't win because of their mudslinging, PS doesn't lose since they've been the strongest party over there since prehistory (but they haven't won as convincingly as they used to because of the scandals), Ecolo = the only alternative if you don't want to vote for mudslingers or corruption, so they win big this time.

Flanders: crisis, so people voted for stability (Kris Peeters did well last time, so we don't want anyone else, hence, CD&V wins big). They want to stop the Belgian situation where loads of Flemish money goes to the Walloon minority, so NVA wins as well.

Bart De Wever/NVA = the acceptable Flemish nationalistic alternative to Vlaams Belang's anti-muslim/foreigners racism. (anti-Wallonia = acceptable, anti-foreigners = unacceptable)

Vlaams Belang = used to be popular when there were no less extreme Flemish nationalist alternatives, are now way too far right for most half reasonable protest voters

Open VLD lose because their campaign just sucked (scandal with one politician who was bought over from another smallish liberal party, didn't have a candidate for the Flemish candidacy at first - then they did - then they didn't choose a popular one - then they put Karel Degucht's inexperienced son at the top of the list in one of the provinces instead of a real politician, then people remembered that Fientje Moerman resigned because of corruption AND THEN JUST CAME BACK as if nothing had happened, in short: they self destructed and now they don't understand why).

LDD = bully who Says What People Think (as well, just like Vlaams Belang claims) but has probably reached the maximum they'll ever be able to get since they're just one man and a bunch of wannabe politicians
(plus some real politicians that used to belong to other parties but people don't know what they're supposed to think about them anymore)

SPa = lose only a little, had no major candidate for the top, didn't do anything very wrong but didn't sound very convincing (fuzzy/warm/social/green/have forgotten what socialism is about), most surprising loss, I think.

Groen! = green party, completely impossible "32 hour work week for the same pay!" "More time for your family!" "less roads!" "(pet peeve of the week) should be more taxed!" <- there's a crisis on, green is only popular when there's money enough.

But that's just what I think.

Turnout was crazy high, is voting compulsory or does the communal list system bring out inter-linguistic rivalry. When are you guys going to move from separate bedrooms to divorce?

Yep, compulsory.

We can't divorce. Divorce can only happen if 2/3 of the Federal government agrees. The Flemish majority would ask Wallonia "Do you want to give more autonomy to the regions?" and the Walloons would translate that into "Do you want to lose your 50% of the federal funding?"

Flemish parties win elections when they say they want to stop the "Funds torrent/stream/flow" from (majority) Flanders to (minority) Walloon profiteers,
Walloon parties win elections when they say the Flemish are selfish and they want to stop "solidarity with Wallonia"

Geldstromen = the Flemish word for money streams (from F to W)
Solidarité = the Walloon word for the same thing, but they make it sound like they would starve

Both have a point, but neither will get what they want, I think.

I only hear the Flemish part of the story, mind (since press is very regional as well), so I may have been brainwashed into this. But it's a popular thing in Flanders at the moment, this WeHaveToStopThrowingAwayMoneyToWallonia thing.

I only hear the Flemish part of the story, mind (since press is very regional as well), so I may have been brainwashed into this.

this always makes me a little sad somehow. it's really time to split i'd say, i mean, even Serbia & Montenegro split and they were basically a hundred percent identical.

not the brainwashing, but that the entire press is focused on their half of the country. i once heard artist x is very popular in Flanders, goes totally unnoticed in Wallonia, then scores a hit in France and only then gets famous in Wallonia.

i forgot who it was obv.

*yawn*
So, another visit from Yves to Albert. His sixth in all, I believe. Over the same bloody thing.

how much did van rompuy's recent nomination disturb domestic politic?

*politics

Not at all. We're used to belgian politicians being promoted to europe after their relevance has faded away.

It's all over! Again! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8645344.stm

Landslide! In Wallonia, the socialist PS is back (with probable new prime minister Elio Di Rupo) but in Flanders the moderately nationalist NVA has taken over.

In flanders people voted for them because the country would work more efficiently if the regions had more responsibilities for certain topics, but in Wallonia everybody seems to see this as "oh no, the flemish nazis are going to kill our belgium!"

Stan - I'm really an outsider here and have not paid much attention to the current elections - but are you really convinced people in Flanders voted NVA to make the country more "efficient"?

I am exceptionally happy with this result. Anything to lessen the power of the VlaamsBelang. Urgh, whenever I see that twat's face on telly, I want to hurl. I doubt NVA will get a lot of results now: probably too many seats anyway? That's what my husband thinks.

what do you mean by that?

If Belgium splits in two will there be a tiresome struggle over whether all those nice beers belong to Frenchie Belgium or Dutchie Belgium?

xpost you'd need to ask my husband that. lol. i think in a sense he means they will resist him even more now that the nva has so many seats? i know shit about (belgian) politics.

bumping this thread because I'm curious to know if anything has changed in the last ten years

does StanM still post here?

apparently in parts of Belgium you might think you are in Halifax, until you get a big dollop of fresh mayonnaise on your fish and chips.

yes, he does, but not following the news very much lately, sorry - xpost