"They would judge you based on what trainers you're wearing"

in clothes shops it adds value to the schmutter to look snootily at the punters.

but also yeah i think some people do judge each other on their clothes.

It's projected insecurity to an extent, and I can see how the combination of 'cool people plus cool clothing store plus cool record shop' would be intimidating to some people.

People in shops may v well judge me--I judged people all the time when I worked in shops--but as long as they sell me what I want I don't care.

Someone doesn't need to be fashionable to be cool. Some 'anti-fashion' ways of dressing are way cooler than whatever is on trend at any particular moment.

I don't judge people on what they're wearing unless it's really ridiculous but I can see why people in certain shops do, and not just trendy shops. I had to visit some sniffy middle-aged mother of the bride type shop just prior to Christmas and I've rarely been sneered at so much outwith ILX.

What kind of sneering goes on in a mother of the bride type shop?

It's not just the clothes though, it's the combination of clothes, attitude and perceived (but actually non-existant) position of power. And generally it only happens when people have some kind of emotional investment in their purchase - people worry about being sneered at in clothes and record shops in a way they don't in, say, Tesco. Anything involving a wedding is likely to exacerbate this fear times 100 I'd imagine.

perceived (but actually non-existant) position of power

yeah, when i was 17 i though: damn this guy in the stussy listening to funki porcini selling me this gear is pretty cool. but not so much now i'm his age or older, if you get me.

x-post yes, the whole wedding industry seems to be based on trying to make people guilty if they don't want to spend overwhelmingly stupid amounts of cash on the whole wretched thing. Maybe if you go into one of those shops and try to keep to a budget, they sneer at you for being a cheapskate? I wouldn't know from first-hand experience, but you hear tales of ridiculous extravagance...

I still won't go into those weird Soho shops which seem to sell only half a dozen brands of Adidas with weird colour schemes and are inevitably populated by Nathan Barleys with nothing better to do.

I don't like it if the staff-to-shopper ratio is too high, or the product-to-shopper ratio is too low. i.e. I like shops with lots of stock where they leave you the fuck alone until you approach them for service.

i have been into american apparel, for shame. awful place.

x-post to Mark C - my daughter was looking for a particular type of Converse. We passed a shop in Carnaby Street which had a huge Converse sign outside and a big banner in the window. We go in - no Converse anywhere. Then we notice a sign pointing upstairs - you have to go back out into the street and climb a narrow staircase. We enter a small room, and yes, there are Converse there - about 5 pairs in total. And about 5 twuntish assitants.

Haha I know exactly the place you mean - next to Size, is that right (which is a very good shop though it also rates highly on the twuntish assistant scale - which you measure by how many overloud conversations you hear them having about DJing)?

clothes shops/record stores-I am not "cool"
tesco/food shops-I am not "normal"

i have been into american apparel, for shame

Their underwear fits me nice tho'.

I think it's next to Size - tbh they all blur into one mass of shops I don't really want to go into

it had a '32-yr-old cokehound with significantly younger skinny g/f vibe' y/n?

xpost

you should buy trainers on ebay Dr C! well, provided you know what size the kids need and what size in what brand etc...a lot cheaper.

When I worked at Record and Tape/ MVE it was implied, although never explicitly stated, that sitting there and looking bored and aloof was the ghreater part of the job. Half of London Ilx has worked there at some point, so others may say different.

Going back to the thread, I guess personally I was a little irked at this, especially as I know for a fact I tried to be as nice as possible to anyone who shopped in the place I worked.

And similarly I know some customers would say "I hate shopping in other record stores, they judge you based on how cool the records you want are, but here people are really nice".

So it's quite a weird projected thing, it kind of takes two people for this to exist. I mean, somebody who thinks they're being judged based on their trainers is probably likely to come across as standoffish and rude anyhow right?

x-post with Anna, yeah towards the end of my job I used to do that, but more as I was kind of depressed/insane at the time. I liked to imitate this leopard in Dublin Zoo that walks back and forth across his cage putting his paws on the exact same pieces of ground each time, even if he has to step over a tree. (with a smoothie!)

xpost Oh I do, Ronan! Yes - much cheaper and more choice. In my son's case, virtually the only way to get them, as he has size 12 feet!

i don't remember the leopard at dublin zoo having a smoothie

It was Kenneth Williams type flary nose sneering...

you can get into that Converse shop from Size, there's a little side-door. I got my last pair of no-laces converse from there and the shop assistant was perfectly friendly. The bloke in Foot-patrol is always very friendly too, which from the outside looks very Nathan Barley..... and stores it's shoes in cages..... but such lovely shoes .

n my son's case, virtually the only way to get them, as he has size 12 feet!

Size 12? I'm 6'2 and only have size 9's, is he a giant?

I wear a size 11 or 12 too, I'm 6'3, it's not that weird a correlation.

I think, if you're a bloke, this is usually something you grow out of in your mid-20s. Then you've got about 10 years before Dirty Old Man Fear begins to set in.

haha

You gotta love being a dirty old man, not fear it.

What's Dirty Old Man Fear?

Size 12? I'm 6'2 and only have size 9's, is he a giant?

Billy he's 6'1 and 14 yrs old. He'll probably reach my height (6'4). Lots of his friends seem to be roughly the same height and with huge feet.

Fear that everyone thinks y're a Dirty Old Man constantly staring at McHotties.

Thought so.

I do find it somewhat ridiculous when people claim they don't judge others (they don't know) on their appearance. You inevitably do - because appearance is the first thing you are confronted with - but of course it depends on how far you want to take this.

I don't like it if the staff-to-shopper ratio is too high, or the product-to-shopper ratio is too low. i.e. I like shops with lots of stock where they leave you the fuck alone until you approach them for service.

I always tell people to bugger off. "If I need you, I'll call you. Thank you." and then give them the look. Trust me, the look and that expression ALWAYS works. One really crumbled. I hate it when they stick to you like glue.

i bought some clothes in the summer. first time in many years. i aksed a female friend where i should go. it had nothing that wasn't white, beige, or black. cos? not sure what to make of it.

I went into Cos. It's impossible to actually see what any of the clothes look like cos they're against a background of hundreds of other clothes exactly the same. My mum liked it though.

They're the up-market bit of H&M, I think.

no laces converse? i'm intrigued

I don't think people grow out of this in mid 20s Matt, I think in fact it can heighten with some people as they become more rigid in themselves.

But perhaps dirty old man fear replaces it. I'm going to do a blog post about this later but I was thinking a bit more about this sort of paranoia.

Another good one is at the gym/pool. When I am going swimming, even though I know it'd ridiculous, I imagine the lifeguard or particularly superfit types think "jesus look at this guy, huffing and puffing" or make fun of my poor front crawl and awkward breast stroke (there's no pun proof way of saying breast stroke)

And as I said the supermarket also, I imagine the cashier thinking "Oh here he is, Mr fucking Soy Milk, Brown Bread, and Sausages"

in local shops i can see that, but in a supermarket, it's not like you're ever going to 1) remember them 2) see them again.

Oh I get gym fear totally and this is possibly why I have never once set foot in one. Strangely I have no such problem with swimming baths.

i don't think I've ever had staff actually sneer it me or anything like that. Has anyone actually experienced this? Or is it just implied internal sneering?

I'm sure there are exceptions, but I find it hard to believe that most staff, even at chic stores, really care enough to judge, at least not in any strong sense. It's like worrying that people are looking at you on the train - they probably are, but they also don't really care enough to attach any significance to what they observe. It's just another fucking customer ultimately. But then I think after spending years and years in customer service I kind of unconsciously identify with the staff until they give me a reason not to.

In dance record stores I've always found staff to be super-nice and full of compliments ("that record is amazing", "you have really great taste...") to the point where I become wary (the next part is "... you simply must buy this other record too!"). The only bad vibes I get is at the closest dance record store from this one older guy who tries to make me feel bad because I haven't visited the shop and bought more records in two months (this is a stupid tactic - I try to avoid him and go on the day when the super-hot enthusiastic younger guy into downtempo is working... he knows shit all about what records I might like but he is so dreamy).

Gyms I'm much more self-conscious for similar reasons as Ronan says, but again I've never experienced anything apart from my own insecurity.

The gym is like this phenomenon at its most primal.

http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/P/peep_show/images/episode_guides/series_1/episode3_mark_200x150.jpg

Male ILXer going shopping, yesterday.

When I worked in a shop the people I looked down on most were those that came in and bought one days worth of crap, expensive, microwave food every day. They were always the people who didn't really have money to waste as well. (x-p)

I've never been sneered at in dance shops but the ones in Newcastle had staff that were v good at ignoring you whilst they talked about their latest DJing exploits. Their tastes were so bad they'd have trouble sneering tho'. (x-p)

i hope itunes doesn't judge me based on which tcp ports i have open :((((((((

People on slsk have banned me for "not having enough dancehall" and stuff like that!

surely all you people are older than most sales staff?

At gyms it's not the staff but the other customers who intimidate me a bit. Like, the fear that one of them's gonna come up and say, "look mate, I wanted to use that machine, and you could use it all day on that low setting and it wouldn't do you any good, so why not give up now? Look, there's a nice treadmill for you over there."

I don't think people grow out of this in mid 20s Matt, I think in fact it can heighten with some people as they become more rigid in themselves

It can - I can think of a couple of people who live under a set of self-imposed restrictions that are based pretty much on 'what other people might think of them' in certain circumstances. It's pretty mad when you analyse it.

But I do think that most people begin to care less as they get older about what someone who they don't know and will never know, might think about them. Those issues seem to get swamped by the mass of other more important stuff to worry about after a certain point - by then the last thing you could give a monkeys about is whether some 19 year old git in a shop thinks you're cool or not.

I often feel uncomfortable shopping. I am attempting to come to terms with my self-hatred.

seriously, though. you end up really resenting and disliking most of the customers, and this manifests itself in sneery behavior, nicknames for serial irritants, etc.

(sorry, ms m. i don't mean to feed your shopping paranoia!)

I'd have to give myself a srs pep talk of not-caring before I went into, say, the Marc Jacobs store (not that I could afford anything in a hundred years) -- but it's the pep talk of "you don't value yrself for those qualities, so don't let other people devalue you for them" and off I'd march. But GROCERIES? Oy gevalt.

this seems to be slipping over into actual self-hated a bit...?

Oh, steady on there...

Indie guys with trucker hats....

assistant in Agent Provocateur who asked me whether my wife's breasts were about the same size as hers.

Just give me a moment to warm my hands.

it's not self hatred really...that's a little harsh.

Probably is, my apologies. I just try to remember something from an essay or article somewhere, to the effect of "It's safe to assume that no one else is thinking about you. They're not thinking about you because they're sure to be much too busy worrying about themselves...JUST LIKE YOU ARE."

Yes I think I'd always have that in mind, as would most people on this thread I guess. It's not really a rational fear.

I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that it's a manifestation of self-hatred. Unduly being concerned with the judgements of others is at the least a form of self-rejection, a sort of violence against the integrity of one's self...and needless to say, the judging here is all being internalized and ultimately taking place within oneself.

I'm one of those people who have been self-conscious about my selections while standing in line at the grocery store, so, hey.

i bought a wig last week, in an empty shop staffed by two older turkish men

they wouldn't make eye contact

(sorry, ms m. i don't mean to feed your shopping paranoia!)

I am a good customer. Respectful and all. It's mostly unfamiliarity really. Grocery store and Target, no problem. Places I don't usually go and I'm a nervous Nelly. But that's true with all aspects of life.

they wouldn't make eye contact

It was a merkin, wasn't it?

Oh, also, Tracer, why were you buying a wig?

xp to dell Absolutely! Self-consciousness isn't inherently negative or an act of rejection, I don't think. I look at my groceries and maybe think "I wonder if she can guess what I'm making today based on these? Boy, they do look delicious, don't they? I like that besides eating and cooking with these fresh/tasty/pretty foods, I also get to buy them and feel good about grocery store bounty. Food is so great" etc. Or wonder whether the products all lined up are an accurate description of my life or not, on a percentage scale. Stuff like that. But my brain doesn't turn it against me by assuming the worst in the eyes of others....

That's what I meant by "really British". :)

hey, tracer, it looked good last night, i barely noticed it...

now that i am an old man i generally think "GOD HELP US IF THERE'S A WAR" when looking at people who ten years ago i'd have been thinking "wow, they so cool".

also a record shop where the staff aren't at least a bit sneery is NO RECORD SHOP AT ALL.

it was a gift for a friend

and urban outfitters is like the worst for this, the cov gdn one is full of men in far too skinny jeans rearranging piles of tshirts THAT I DON'T EVEN WANT, i have 0 idea why i ever set foot in the place...

men in skinny jeans look wack anyway. hard to be intimidated by 'em really.

Yes I also hate Urban Outfitters. But this is mostly b/c I'm about 15 years older than the other people in there. I imagine they're looking at me thinking I'm a sad old lady. But I don't buy their clothes just interesting accessories.

My wife hates Urban Outfitters because apparently they steal designs and alter them just enough so they can't be sued and are generally scum.

They have nice bags and costume jewelry though.

i was in an Urban Outfitters last week and asked if I was OK by 3 different members of staff within 5 minutes of browsing. either they thought i was cool or they were taking great pity on me.

I worked at a toyshop back (many years ago) when I was a student; we hated all of our customers and especially their children. So I don't think the disdain is purely a clothes or records shop thing.

xpost on the age thing. I don't give a shit what the floppy-haired white boy who's trying and not quite succeeding at being painfully hip thinks of my record purchases. I'm of an age now where I don't feel the need to justify my listening preferences to anyone, even my friends.

As for clothes shops: I'll buy what I want and I don't need or care about the staff thoughts on the issue - whether it be spoken or through disapproving looks. They're purely there to tell me what sizes they have in stock and/or take my money off me in as polite a manner as possible.

Neither of these is a sign of self confidence, as I don't possess such an item. If it turns out I've made a misjudgement in something, I just have to put up with it - and clothing and music purchases are among the least of the misjudgements that it's possible for me to make...

Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at earlier - what someone thinks of your shoes or your choice of music doesn't seem remotely important after a while in the wider scheme of things

Haha the elusive Perspective in its natural habitat....

....or simply old age

Was it Mark Twain who said something like "When I was 17, I thought my father was the stupidest person in the world. When I was 22, it was amazing how much the old man had learned in five years." Only these days it's more like 32, maybe?

45 :(

"When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years." Mark Twain.

Some versions give the starting age as 16.

I bought a 'serious' book I didn't necessarily want because I was ashamed of the book about farts I was buying at the same time : /

Dr C, I didn't mean the age you ARE, just the age at which you got around to noticing the wider scheme of things.

http://www.artybees.co.nz/bizarre-book-images/obscure-topics/the-gas-we-pass.jpg

something I kind of enjoy: how some 19-year-olds will feel like life is so awesome and they are so cool because they have a job at American Apparel or Urban Outfitters or something, and they're all up in there having fun with their coworker friends and feeling cooler than the 30-year-old buying a t-shirt, blissfully unaware that the 30-year-old buying the t-shirt is thinking "OMG, that is so adorable and/or kinda sad, how they think working chain-store retail and getting a clothing discount is the coolest thing in the world"

(actually, I think I spent my mid/late twenties finding it sad, but now it seems cute, like a puppy getting confused by a sliding glass door)

i'm always impressed by/admire cheerful shop staff.

I kinda wonder how they remain cheerful. My experience of working face to face with the GBP taught me that most of them are twats...

I was not a happy shopworker.

I was happy for most of the time I worked in a shop. Some people are twats and annoying often...but other people are nice too.

I really like the expectation that record-store guys are jerks, because it means that if you're even marginally civil to customers they tend to think you're the coolest, nicest guy in the universe.

And the only people I've had any problem being civil with in record stores are (a) actual jerks and thieves, and (b) this one Interpol fan who made me provide entire half-hour primers and recommendations on Joy Division, Gang of Four, and Echo & the Bunnymen, then didn't buy anything and came back the next week to ask me the exact same questions over again.

People who "don't belong" are actually way more fun in record stores than people who think they know lots of stuff. My favorite bits of indie record-store work ever were always around Christmas, where mothers would come in with their kids' gift lists, and then you could be really polite and helpful and tell them that their kids had great taste, so that if they came in thinking their kids were weirdos possibly listening to subversive, Satanic music, they'd leave thinking their kids were cool and belonged to some sort of world of nice, interesting young people.

Why would you want to tell them that? No kid wants their mum to think they've got great taste in music.

something I kind of enjoy: how some 19-year-olds will feel like life is so awesome and they are so cool because they have a job at American Apparel or Urban Outfitters or something, and they're all up in there having fun with their coworker friends and feeling cooler than the 30-year-old buying a t-shirt, blissfully unaware that the 30-year-old buying the t-shirt is thinking "OMG, that is so adorable and/or kinda sad, how they think working chain-store retail and getting a clothing discount is the coolest thing in the world"

This is so OTM it hurts, and is a timely comment for me as I recently went into an American Apparel to return a t-shirt, and saw the barrage of employees all decked out in AA clothes (can't forget the accessories -- headbands, socks, etc), clearly outnumbering the customers. I don't think a single article of clothing on them was not AA, (except for articles AA doesn't sell, i.e. shoes.) One of them even shouted "HEY can we put on the new M.I.A.?!?!" They definitely looked hip, cool, whatever, but I wouldn't for a second want to go back to those years of my life when I'd wanted to be them. It was sad yes but I like Nabisco's idea of it being adorable. It's nicer.

btw it was the first time I heard "M.I.A." spoken aloud (I had only read it before), is it really pronounced "em-eye-aye"?

how else?!

i don't know, like "Mee-ah" or "Maya"

Living proof of contrary! When you're 14 and your mom has zero frame of reference for the kind of stuff you listen to, a little reassurance can keep her from throwing too many of your CDs in the trash. It was mostly that you'd see some of those moms walking in looking frightened, like they were going to get mugged or headbanged at or something, and then you'd be able to give their kids' musical taste the backing of a clean, well-lit store staffed by nice guys who also know about the stuff.

xpost - The part that's weird about, like, 19-year-old AA employees or whatever is that, umm, that is not particularly hip! I mean, god bless them for enjoying it and all, but working a counter at Urban Outfitters is not very far up the food chain of cool. So it's just ... really sweet and comical when they really, really think it is.

Wait, better way of putting the mom thing, even if it's partly me projecting my own childhood onto other people: in some cases you could sense that the kid's taste in music was maybe a little bit a point of contention between mom and child, and mom is the one with the backing of mainsteam opinion; there was something kind of pleasant about basically being there to take the kid's side, and go "yeah, that's a great album, he'll really enjoy that."

I used to avoid empty shops and unfamiliar shops, but now I realize I'm being silly. WTF do I care if some lowpaid salesperson sneers at me. I'm sad he is underpayed, cause I think being a good salesperson should be rewarded more but quite honestly I don't give a tosser what s/he thinks of me and my sad dress style.

I don't think I really ridicule my clients. Well, not in their face anyway. I do roll my eyes at times. When the guy says for the 5454th time his girlfriend has so much more slender fingers than I have. "You're in love, puppy, of course you'd think that. Alas, 9 times out of 10 U R RONG." Or when a customers has obviously decided to "impress" me by wearing all her jewellery. WTF do I care what you wear, I'm more interested in what you'll buy at my store. And, I know I shouldn't, but inwardly I giggle when a client asks for a "Sanitary sillicone." instead of a solitair with a cubic zirconia. Buit overall I always treat my clients with a friendly smile as I realize they put my food on the table. And I love sales. It's (most of the time) a lot of fun running a shop.

45 :(

Dr C, I didn't mean the age you ARE, just the age at which you got around to noticing the wider scheme of things

Oh right. 44 then.