Before the devil knows youre dead - the new Lumet film

(still a wonder - why me and my pal lowerd the average viewers age at the cinema.we were almost the only one's below 70 years old.)

if Tarantino directed it, it would be a cult favourite.
if youre ignoring the movie, you might doing a mistake.

(on the other hand, it's not a masterpiece)

i think it's great.

Good film, though Albert Finney looked like a large-mouthed bass the whole time.

he's looked like one for years!

EW says it's comparable to Long Days Journey Into Niht in power...

seeing it wednesday, excited

is marisa a bit part?

for 90% of her appearence time she is naked.

Not a bit part, she's the lead female role (though third or fourth in overall screen time).

cool

she's really naked?

Yes. Topless, mostly. Opening scene is PSH taking her from behind.

So hawt.

whoa

i'm going to see it with my boss?

i don't know, are you?

i will be there tonight, is all i know

i went! i saw! i loved! (thanks s1ocki for the nudge, no not like that)

omg, such ponderable questions this film raises.

Will this Kelly Masterson person be allowed to sell more screenplays, and will they be as full of troweled-on Greek-drama claptrap?

Which of the 4 principals gives the hammiest, most hyperventilating performance?

Who would've thought that opening scene would turn out to be the most plausible?

Some nice camera moves -- PSH's first entry into the drug aerie -- in fact, old Lumet deserves plaudits for making it watchable.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS
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also, how has the frequently effective Hoffman become the most overregarded actor in films since Kevin Spacey?

ROFL at EW hyperbole. Since Lumet did the film of Long Day's Journey Into Night, I thought of it too. This has a higher body count and fewer intentional laughs.

"Oh, the acting, of course" -- the look-at-me bad, "powerful" acting. I was inwardly screaming "Use the pillow if it'll end the movie!"

why-o-why couldn't surviving bro have been hit by a car as the coda?

i agree it was awesome

i thought the technical filmmaking was a little bland tho

the best way to see this movie is as a well made and written black comedy,
with this way,the over - the- top - of - everything in it make sense, and fun to watch,with all the cliches.
and really,thats what it is in the end.

Except, while there's that undercurrent, it usually is NOT THE FILMMAKERS' INTENTION. But such adaptable viewing sure increases the number of "good" movies one sees.

Also klassik: being able to call every kill, perpetrator and method, at least a couple minutes in advance.

did you go joe?

i don't care if it was his intention or not,the results are good enough.(though i do think at least the screenwriter wanted it to be a tragedy gone comedy movie).
plus,funny to hear this from a speilberg fan.
i think,within the limitations of the genre,his own old-school tactics and maybe the producers,he did a good job.it's a not a breakthrough masterpiece,but compared to most american movies made this days,it stands as a good,pretty tight mainstream movie,with some weird twist.

"thought the technical filmmaking was a little bland tho"
i liked it, another deja vu for my cinema studies back than..

plus,funny to hear this from a speilberg fan.

...

"thought the technical filmmaking was a little bland tho"

^I'm fairly sure this is slocki smarm. The material actually would've been better served by a Tarantino, or better yet, a Raoul Walsh, who would've chopped 30 minutes off it w/out all the portentous Method stewing.

I agree w/ the Salon pan, mostly, incl the best moment being Tomei struggling with her suitcases.

Wait, the drug dealer was a transvestite? I just thought he was fey.

It wouldn't be a Lumet if two or more actors weren't shouting in the same frame.

sometimes in closeup.

didn't register as a TV with me, either.

i know a kid who kind of looks like the drug dealer

sur i went to BAM last night is what i meant

also i liked this movie, usual lumet caveats notwithstanding (agreed about the screaming) (also kind of hated the way he cut between story strands)

I loved this movie - Morbius complains about "Greek-drama claptrap" above, but fuck that, gimme a nice overwrought Greek drama over most else any day.

Actually, I retract: the drug dealer gave the best performance.

"My mother's dying."

"Bummer."

So many false notes in this thing. Did Ethan Hawke channel Tim Roth wounded in Reservoir Dogs for that accent?

Best character is TOTALLY the dead guy's wife's brother. scene in the bar is CLASSIC. wish they didn't call back the 'chico' reference in the second scene.

i got the impression that the writer came up with the last scene w/ the heart monitor and worked to prop up the rest of this thing to get there.

The dead guy's wife's brother (Michael Shannon) is always good.

I liked it. Complaints about the melodrama seem a little beside the point as it's pretty obv that's what it is going for. Do agree that Hoffman's Kevin Spacey-ization is getting a little tiresome, but he has some good scenes in this (although I like him better when he's subdued--his performance in The Savages is better for being restrained.) The biggest problem I had with the movie is that Ethan Hawke's botched facelift makes looking at him really unnerving.

"the drug dealer" = Crispin Glover, no?

I don't hafta like what it's going for.

Is this botched f-lift common knowledge? Just looks like aging Ethan to me.

I have no idea if it's common knowledge or not, but it looks very Robert Blake unnatural to me.

Drug dealer not Crispin.

The drug dealer gave my favorite performance.

"My wife left me."
"Bummer."

Yeah you said that right above. We get it.

great movie.

As far as I can make out, this is the second week BTDKYD has been showing in London and the SE, but there's still no sign of it elsewhere in the UK. London-first releases are rare enough for major releases these days, and when they do happen it's only for a week, not two. This is really pissing me off and making me feel like not seeing the film at all. Did they just forget to make extra prints or something?

overrated pile of crap. also that editing gimmick they did every time the perspective changed was cheap and annoying.

ARGH BROKEN GLASS EQUALS FRACTURED NARRATIVE

also why is everyone so surprised that Lumet can still direct movies where things happen? he's just old!

omg, such ponderable questions this film raises.

Will this Kelly Masterson person be allowed to sell more screenplays, and will they be as full of troweled-on Greek-drama claptrap?

Which of the 4 principals gives the hammiest, most hyperventilating performance?

Who would've thought that opening scene would turn out to be the most plausible?

Some nice camera moves -- PSH's first entry into the drug aerie -- in fact, old Lumet deserves plaudits for making it watchable.

-- Dr Morbius, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 2:14 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark Link

From watching the interviews on the dvd, it seems like Lumet is responsible for the Greek melodrama stuff (talks about how it was pitched to him as a suspense/thriller but he saw it as a melodrama, how the dudes weren't even brothers in the original script, etc.).

I like this btw.

terrific movie

hell intense. PSH looks like a toad. marisa is hell hot- i liked the luggage scene too, as well as the intro to dealers apartment, great shot!
i don't know anything about movies, but i liked those bits.

Thought it was good, but am a bit baffled by the levels of praise accorded in some quarters. I saw a solid, slightly too-tricky crime/family melodrama (aaargh, the "POV" repetition that never added to altered what we already knew). Tightly crafted, but ultimately unremarkable. If there's any reason to overrate it, it comes from the performances more than the direction/storytelling. Hoffman and Tomei were both fantastic. Tomei, especially, given that her part was so underwritten.

Hi slocki!

ILE got it right.

want my $11 back

Thought it was good, but am a bit baffled by the levels of praise accorded in some quarters. I saw a solid, slightly too-tricky crime/family melodrama (aaargh, the "POV" repetition that never added to altered what we already knew). Tightly crafted, but ultimately unremarkable. If there's any reason to overrate it, it comes from the performances more than the direction/storytelling. Hoffman and Tomei were both fantastic. Tomei, especially, given that her part was so underwritten.

Hi slocki!

-- contenderizer, Monday, May 19, 2008 5:50 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

i don't disagree! tight, well-plotted thriller with great performances!

The queeny drug dealer was the best character and performance.

amy ryan as bitchy, downtrodden single mom - lol typecast

good acting but this movie suuuucked

The queeny drug dealer was the best character and performance.

-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Monday, May 19, 2008 6:08 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

what dialogue would you say summed this up best?

I quoted it upthread:

HOFFMAN: My mother's dying.

DEALER (bored to tears): Bummer.

i liked how terrible everyone was at being criminals. it felt realistic.

amy ryan as bitchy, downtrodden single mom - lol typecast

Funny, because just last night I remarked at how her character on The Wire felt so different from her character in Gone Baby Gone. Both single moms, though, I guess.

beadie is not bitchy, but she is more of a downtrodden single mom in the last season.

I can't wait until I'm through with the show so I can talk to you about it.

Uh oh. Which one is Amy Ryan?

Never mind.

Who would've thought that opening scene would turn out to be the most plausible?

-- Dr Morbius, Tuesday, November 20, 2007 2:14 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark Link

haha OTM, even though I'm most willing to suspend my disbelief when Patrick Wolf lookalike is the drugdealer. I think this is a great film mostly because Cassandra's Dream was so laughably awful.

Saw this last night. Scene towards the end w/PSH & Hawke in dealer's apartment was 0_0. Everybody but Tomei was over the top, but that's the ride and I went with it. I really wasn't that impressed with Tomei honestly, but I can see that everybody else digs the subtlety. I just wasn't drawn to her while everyone else was eating the scenery alive.

Also fwiw on the commentary Lumet talks about how he believed this was a melodrama and pushed the actors to ham it up

"I told them 'You're gonna worry that it's too much, that you're going over the top, but don't worry about it. That's my call, and if it is too much then it's my responsibility.'"

SO terrible.

I mean yeah it was maudlin and the leads were shouty and the perspective-shifting bit was annoying, but watching it a couple times I came away pretty happy with it. It's compelling, if not completely plausible, but since when do we turn to melodramas for verisimilitude?

It wasn't verisimilitude I wanted, it was freshness and intelligence.

this was really bad

the luggage bit WAS good, but i sort of hated all the characters, except for the mom.

some nice little grace notes here and there (PSH curling up on a bare mattress comes to mind)--but yeah im not sure melodrama really works if you're intentionally turning things up to 11 just to achieve the effect of melodrama without the emotional rush. just a little loud.

tomei hot tho.

Didn't like this at the time, thought I'd give it another look for obvious reasons. (Wasn't up to Synecdoche, New York--some other time.)

The first hour's basically okay. PSH is good, so are Hawke and Tomei. I thought the only bad performance was Albert Finney's. I'd forgotten pretty much everything about the film, including that Hoffman plays a drug addict--weird timing. It starts to derail after that, and even Hoffman has one overwrought scene, in the car coming home from the funeral. I thought the scrambled narrative might have been Lumet's attempt to do something like Tarantino's first three films.

The guy who plays the fence is striking.

And Michael Shannon's really good in his small part. First film?

Never made it through the entire thing, but liked what I saw.

And Michael Shannon's really good in his small part. First film?

In addition to the pre-BTDKYD films I remember him being in, e.g. Bug and Dead Birds, his IMDB is a bizarro Where's Waldo: Vanilla Sky, 8 Mile, Jesus' Son, and hilariously, Groundhog Day.

Among (many) others.

...and Kangaroo Jack, in which he's a completely cartoonish (and funny) mobster.

Wow--I've seen all four of those, completely oblivious to who he was at the time.

I wish more people were revisiting Twister tbh.

my favorite movie as a young kid. i didn't even realize PSH was in it until this week, but just thinking about it now, and his character is so vivid

And Michael Shannon's really good in his small part. First film?

In addition to the pre-BTDKYD films I remember him being in, e.g. Bug and Dead Birds, his IMDB is a bizarro Where's Waldo: Vanilla Sky, 8 Mile, Jesus' Son, and hilariously, Groundhog Day.

― Devilock, Wednesday, February 5, 2014 10:31 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Woah--who was he in Groundhog Day?! Or rather, who was "Fred" (his character in GD)? I just rewatched it last weekend, too.

Oh I meant to come back to this. Yeah in Groundhog Day he's apparently the guy at the table in the diner scene where Bill Murray walks around reciting people's innermost secrets. Shannon is the "what?!" dude at 1:15:
http://youtu.be/uw63_YyNsF4

I'm guessing if you search YT for "michael shannon + [movie title]" you'll find the others, as that's what happened for Groundhog Day and Jesus' Son for me. (The latter film had him in much more than a monosyllabic role but it had been so long since I'd seen it that I'd forgotten.)

Shannon is half of the just-married couple gifted with with Wrestlemania tickets by Bill Murray (to their delight) at the party on the last day.

It's been a while, but I recall really enjoying BTDKYD, not despite but for the reasons some find it "bad"-- the seemingly overwrought overacting/ melodrama.

It keeps to or rather zigzags the fine line between melodramatic emotionality and hilarious ridiculousness, and I think that's intentional.

The scenes of inflated emotion, what would seem to be (or one would expect to be) like operatic climaxes, are deflated by the film itself & other characters' reactions. E.g. the confrontation scene where Tomei confesses to the affair with his brother, challenges him for a reaction, then awkwardly/ kittenishly asks for money, and the best part, the long time she takes to awkwardly get the heavy suitcase down the stairs (a great piece of physical comedy)… and he just stands there like a lump.

Or the scene in the car when PSH breaks down ("it's not fair!"): Tomei's reaction to his outburst (or whiny tantrum), that recoil, has more awkward embarrassment/ disgust in it than empathy.

Or the scene of PSH at his dealer's pad (eerie), waxing philosophical/ lamenting his life; the androgynous dealer reacts with complete boredom ("I'm not your psychologist"). It's sad and funny at once.

Ethan Hawke's hapless sad sack is so pitiful he comes to seem funny, too.

On the one hand, there's a consistency to everyone's (supposed) overacting, an acting style that perhaps seems (to us nowadays) un-naturalistic, which for me gave substance to the world/ reality of the film. (Drew me in for the ride, just as I'd be drawn in by a good musical or opera.)

On the other hand, I also found something strangely realistic about it, more realistic in a way than understated "naturalistic" acting. I don't know about you, but I grew up in a family with a fair share of shouting outbursts, emotional tantrums, passive-aggressive absurdity and drama queen histrionics. Ever since I was a child, witnessing the tensest, most emotional, most climactic family moments/ confrontations, I often felt an irrational urge to laugh (simultaneous with feelings of pain, fear, empathy, anger etc.). We humans often appear ridiculous and grotesque when we feel/ express real (even authentic and deep) emotion. These are usually not moments imbued with dignity and grandeur. All the characters here appear pathetic (in both senses of the term), pathetic when most pathetic, but I recognized and identified with that. It seemed all the more appropriate in this film, because the melodrama is about (and enacted among) family.

Great post, drash. Yeah, I think this movie has a lot going for it than PSH's excellent performance.

i enjoyed this, even if it was over the top. really great post, drash, sums up a lot of the feelings i had but much more eloquently than i could do. especially your last paragraph about the realism present within the melodrama.

i honestly didn't think PSH's breakdown scene in the car was that hammy, if you haven't had at least a couple moments like that in your life than i can't relate to you. the dude was complicit in killing his fucking mother and just left her funeral, i mean, come on! it didn't seem crazy to me, especially since he was so checked out and emotionally withdrawn the rest of the movie, excluding some of the outbursts he had at ethan hawke. PSH just did this magnificent job of showing this character who is trying to act the part of a smart criminal but so obviously has nothing under control.

tomei was great, wish she had a larger part in the film.

i didn't feel like michael shannon's part was THAT great, i mean, it was good, but he didn't veer that much from a bunch of other "tough-talking new yorker" roles.

psh's breakdown was the best part for me, i don't really even remember the rest of the movie