'My Space' hoax by scumbag family ends with suicide

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http://suburbanjournals.stltoday.com/articles/2007/11/12/news/sj2tn20071110-1111stc_pokin_1.ii1.txt

'My Space' hoax ends with suicide of Dardenne Prairie teen

By Steve Pokin
Monday, November 12, 2007 5:48 AM CST

His name was Josh Evans. He was 16 years old. And he was hot.

"Mom! Mom! Mom! Look at him!" Tina Meier recalls her daughter saying.

Josh had contacted Megan Meier through her MySpace page and wanted to be added as a friend.

Yes, he's cute, Tina Meier told her daughter. "Do you know who he is?"

"No, but look at him! He's hot! Please, please, can I add him?"

Mom said yes. And for six weeks Megan and Josh - under Tina's watchful eye - became acquainted in the virtual world of MySpace.

Josh said he was born in Florida and recently had moved to O'Fallon. He was homeschooled. He played the guitar and drums.

He was from a broken home: "when i was 7 my dad left me and my mom and my older brother and my newborn brother 3 boys god i know poor mom yeah she had such a hard time when we were younger finding work to pay for us after he loeft."

As for 13-year-old Megan, of Dardenne Prairie, this is how she expressed who she was:

M is for Modern

E is for Enthusiastic

G is for Goofy

A is for Alluring

N is for Neglected.

She loved swimming, boating, fishing, dogs, rap music and boys. But her life had not always been easy, her mother says.

She was heavy and for years had tried to lose weight. She had attention deficit disorder and battled depression. Back in third grade she had talked about suicide, Tina says, and ever since had seen a therapist.

But things were going exceptionally well. She had shed 20 pounds, getting down to 175. She was 5 foot 5½ inches tall.

She had just started eighth grade at a new school, Immaculate Conception, in Dardenne Prairie, where she was on the volleyball team. She had attended Fort Zumwalt public schools before that.

Amid all these positives, Tina says, her daughter decided to end a friendship with a girlfriend who lived down the street from them. The girls had spent much of seventh grade alternating between being friends and, the next day, not being friends, Tina says.

Part of the reason for Megan's rosy outlook was Josh, Tina says. After school, Megan would rush to the computer.

"Megan had a lifelong struggle with weight and self-esteem," Tina says. "And now she finally had a boy who she thought really thought she was pretty."

It did seem odd, Tina says, that Josh never asked for Megan's phone number. And when Megan asked for his, she says, Josh said he didn't have a cell and his mother did not yet have a landline.

And then on Sunday, Oct. 15, 2006, Megan received a puzzling and disturbing message from Josh. Tina recalls that it said: "I don't know if I want to be friends with you anymore because I've heard that you are not very nice to your friends."

Frantic, Megan shot back: "What are you talking about?"

SHADOWY CYBERSPACE

Tina Meier was wary of the cyber-world of MySpace and its 70 million users. People are not always who they say they are.

Tina knew firsthand. Megan and the girl down the block, the former friend, once had created a fake MySpace account, using the photo of a good-looking girl as a way to talk to boys online, Tina says. When Tina found out, she ended Megan's access.

MySpace has rules. A lot of them. There are nine pages of terms and conditions. The long list of prohibited content includes sexual material. And users must be at least 14.

"Are you joking?" Tina asks. "There are fifth-grade girls who have MySpace accounts."

As for sexual content, Tina says, most parents have no clue how much there is. And Megan wasn't 14 when she opened her account. To join, you are asked your age but there is no check. The accounts are free.

As Megan's 14th birthday approached, she pleaded for her mom to give her another chance on MySpace, and Tina relented.

She told Megan she would be all over this account, monitoring it. Megan didn't always make good choices because of her ADD, Tina says. And this time, Megan's page would be set to private and only Mom and Dad would have the password.

'GOD-AWFUL FEELING'

Monday, Oct. 16, 2006, was a rainy, bleak day. At school, Megan had handed out invitations to her upcoming birthday party and when she got home she asked her mother to log on to MySpace to see if Josh had responded.

Why did he suddenly think she was mean? Who had he been talking to?

Tina signed on. But she was in a hurry. She had to take her younger daughter, Allison, to the orthodontist.

Before Tina could get out the door it was clear Megan was upset. Josh still was sending troubling messages. And he apparently had shared some of Megan's messages with others.

Tina recalled telling Megan to sign off.

"I will Mom," Megan said. "Let me finish up."

Tina was pressed for time. She had to go. But once at the orthodontist's office she called Megan: Did you sign off?

"No, Mom. They are all being so mean to me."

"You are not listening to me, Megan! Sign off, now!"

Fifteen minutes later, Megan called her mother. By now Megan was in tears.

"They are posting bulletins about me." A bulletin is like a survey. "Megan Meier is a slut. Megan Meier is fat."

Megan was sobbing hysterically. Tina was furious that she had not signed off.

Once Tina returned home she rushed into the basement where the computer was. Tina was shocked at the vulgar language her daughter was firing back at people.

"I am so aggravated at you for doing this!" she told Megan.

Megan ran from the computer and left, but not without first telling Tina, "You're supposed to be my mom! You're supposed to be on my side!"

On the stairway leading to her second-story bedroom, Megan ran into her father, Ron.

"I grabbed her as she tried to go by," Ron says. "She told me that some kids were saying horrible stuff about her and she didn't understand why. I told her it's OK. I told her that they obviously don't know her. And that it would be fine."

Megan went to her room and Ron went downstairs to the kitchen, where he and Tina talked about what had happened, the MySpace account, and made dinner.

Twenty minutes later, Tina suddenly froze in mid-sentence.

"I had this God-awful feeling and I ran up into her room and she had hung herself in the closet."

Megan Taylor Meier died the next day, three weeks before her 14th birthday.

Later that day, Ron opened his daughter's MySpace account and viewed what he believes to be the final message Megan saw - one the FBI would be unable to retrieve from the hard drive.

It was from Josh and, according to Ron's best recollection, it said, "Everybody in O'Fallon knows how you are. You are a bad person and everybody hates you. Have a shitty rest of your life. The world would be a better place without you."

BEYOND GRIEF INTO FURY

Tina and Ron saw a grief counselor. Tina went to a couple of Parents After Loss of Suicide meetings, as well.

They tried to message Josh Evans, to let him know the deadly power of mean words. But his MySpace account had been deleted.

The day after Megan's death, they went down the street to comfort the family of the girl who had once been Megan's friend. They let the girl and her family know that although she and Megan had their ups and down, Megan valued her friendship.

They also attended the girl's birthday party, although Ron had to leave when it came time to sing "Happy Birthday." The Meiers went to the father's 50th birthday celebration. In addition, the Meiers stored a foosball table, a Christmas gift, for that family.

Six weeks after Megan died, on a Saturday morning, a neighbor down the street, a different neighbor, one they didn't know well, called and insisted that they meet that morning at a counselor's office in northern O'Fallon.

The woman would not provide details. Ron and Tina went. Their grief counselor was there. As well as a counselor from Fort Zumwalt West Middle School.

The neighbor from down the street, a single mom with a daughter the same age as Megan, informed the Meiers that Josh Evans never existed.

She told the Meiers that Josh Evans was created by adults, a family on their block. These adults, she told the Meiers, were the parents of Megan's former girlfriend, the one with whom she had a falling out. These were the people who'd asked the Meiers to store their foosball table.

The single mother, for this story, requested that her name not be used. She said her daughter, who had carpooled with the family that was involved in creating the phony MySpace account, had the password to the Josh Evans account and had sent one message - the one Megan received (and later retrieved off the hard drive) the night before she took her life.

"She had been encouraged to join in the joke," the single mother said.

The single mother said her daughter feels the guilt of not saying something sooner and for writing that message. Her daughter didn't speak out sooner because she'd known the other family for years and thought that what they were doing must be OK because, after all, they were trusted adults.

On the night the ambulance came for Megan, the single mother said, before it left the Meiers' house her daughter received a call. It was the woman behind the creation of the Josh Evans account. She had called to tell the girl that something had happened to Megan and advised the girl not to mention the MySpace account.

AX AND SLEDGEHAMMER

The Meiers went home and tore into the foosball table.

Tina used an ax and Ron a sledgehammer. They put the pieces in Ron's pickup and dumped them in their neighbor's driveway. Tina spray painted "Merry Christmas" on the box.

According to Tina, Megan had gone on vacations with this family. They knew how she struggled with depression, that she took medication.

"I know that they did not physically come up to our house and tie a belt around her neck," Tina says. "But when adults are involved and continue to screw with a 13-year-old - with or without mental problems - it is absolutely vile.

"She wanted to get Megan to feel like she was liked by a boy and let everyone know this was a false MySpace and have everyone laugh at her.

"I don't feel their intentions were for her to kill herself. But that's how it ended."

'GAINING MEGAN'S CONFIDENCE'

That same day, the family down the street tried to talk to the Meiers. Ron asked friends to convince them to leave before he physically harmed them.

In a letter dated Nov. 30, 2006, the family tells Ron and Tina, "We are sorry for the extreme pain you are going through and can only imagine how difficult it must be. We have every compassion for you and your family."

The Suburban Journals have decided not to name the family out of consideration for their teenage daughter.

The mother declined comment.

"I have been advised not to give out any information and I apologize for that," she says. "I would love to sit here and talk to you about it but I can't."

She was informed that without her direct comment the newspaper would rely heavily on the police report she filed with the St. Charles County Sheriff's Department regarding the destroyed foosball table.

"I will tell you that the police report is totally wrong," the mother said. "We have worked on getting that changed. I would just be very careful about what you write."

Lt. Craig McGuire, spokesman for the sheriff's department, said he is unaware of anyone contacting the department to alter the report.

"We stand behind the report as written," McGuire says. "There was no supplement to it. What is in the report is what we believe she told us."

The police report - without using the mother's name - states:

"(She) stated in the months leading up Meier's daughter's suicide, she instigated and monitored a 'my space' account which was created for the sole purpose of communicating with Meier's daughter.

"(She) said she, with the help of temporary employee named ------ constructed a profile of 'good looking' male on 'my space' in order to 'find out what Megan (Meier's daughter) was saying on-line' about her daughter. (She) explained the communication between the fake male profile and Megan was aimed at gaining Megan's confidence and finding out what Megan felt about her daughter and other people.

"(She) stated she, her daughter and (the temporary employee) all typed, read and monitored the communication between the fake male profile and Megan …..

"According to (her) 'somehow' other 'my space' users were able to access the fake male profile and Megan found out she had been duped. (She) stated she knew 'arguments' had broken out between Megan and others on 'my space.' (She) felt this incident contributed to Megan's suicide, but she did not feel 'as guilty' because at the funeral she found out 'Megan had tried to commit suicide before.'"

Tina says her daughter died thinking Josh was real and that she never before attempted suicide.

"She was the happiest she had ever been in her life," Ron says.

After years of wearing braces, Megan was scheduled to have them removed the day she died. And she was looking forward to her birthday party.

"She and her mom went shopping and bought a new dress," Ron says. "She wanted to make this grand entrance with me carrying her down the stairs. I never got to see her in that dress until the funeral."

NO CRIMINAL CHARGES

It does not appear that there will be criminal charges filed in connection with Megan's death.

"We did not have a charge to fit it," McGuire says. "I don't know that anybody can sit down and say, 'This is why this young girl took her life.'"

The Meiers say the matter also was investigated by the FBI, which analyzed the family computer and conducted interviews. Ron said a stumbling block is that the FBI was unable to retrieve the electronic messages from Megan's final day, including that final message that only Ron saw.

The Meiers do not plan to file a civil lawsuit. Here's what they want: They want the law changed, state or federal, so that what happened to Megan - at the hands of an adult - is a crime.

THE AFTERMATH IS PAIN

The Meiers are divorcing. Ron says Tina was as vigilant as a parent could be in monitoring Megan on MySpace. Yet she blames herself.

"I have this awful, horrible guilt and this I can never change," she said. "Ever."

Ron struggles daily with the loss of a daughter who, no matter how low she felt, tried to make others laugh and feel a little bit better.

He has difficulty maintaining focus and has kept his job as a tool and die maker through the grace and understanding of his employer, he says. His emotions remain jagged, on edge.

Christine Buckles lives in the same Waterford Crossing subdivision. In her view, everyone in the subdivision knows of Megan's death, but few know of the other family's involvement.

Tina says she and Ron have dissuaded angry friends and family members from vandalizing the other home for one, and only one, reason.

"The police will think we did it," Tina says.

Ron faces a misdemeanor charge of property damage. He is accused of driving his truck across the lawn of the family down the street, doing $1,000 in damage, in March. A security camera the neighbors installed on their home allegedly caught him.

It was Tina, a real estate agent, who helped the other family purchase their home on the same block 2½ years ago.

"I just wish they would go away, move," Ron says.

Vicki Dunn, Tina's aunt, last month placed signs in and near the neighborhood on the anniversary of Megan's death.

They read: "Justice for Megan Meier," "Call the St. Charles County Prosecuting Attorney," and "MySpace Impersonator in Your Neighborhood."

On the window outside Megan's room is an ornamental angel that Ron turns on almost every night. Inside are pictures of boys, posters of Usher, Beyonce and on the dresser a tube of instant bronzer.

"She was all about getting a tan," Ron says.

He has placed the doors back on the closet. Megan had them off.

If only she had waited, talked to someone, or just made it to dinner, then through the evening, and then on to the beginning of a new day in what could have been a remarkable life.

If she had, he says, there is no doubt she would have chosen to live. Instead, there is so much pain.

"She never would have wanted to see her parents divorce," Ron says.

Ultimately, it was Megan's choice to do what she did, he says. "But it was like someone handed her a loaded gun."

What can you say?

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:22 (eighteen years ago)

This is possibly the most fucked up thing I've ever read

Dom Passantino, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:23 (eighteen years ago)

Dom totally OTM

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:25 (eighteen years ago)

:-(

can't the parents even be done for fraud?

CharlieNo4, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:32 (eighteen years ago)

christ....

rizzx, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:34 (eighteen years ago)

"she did not feel 'as guilty' because at the funeral she found out 'Megan had tried to commit suicide before.'"

Dom Passantino, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:35 (eighteen years ago)

Dom OTM.

(There you go).

Matt DC, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:37 (eighteen years ago)

That is incredibly fucked.

Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:37 (eighteen years ago)

not to sound heartless but this shit happens with kids. i dont buy the moms story about her constant myspace vigilance for a minute.

and what, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:41 (eighteen years ago)

Ethan's sadly right. :-(

nathalie, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:42 (eighteen years ago)

Aye, true. Even so... for parents to do it. That's fucked.

Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

Yeah, bullying suicides are sadly common, but adults troll-harassing their daughter's ex to death?

Dom Passantino, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

i thought this would be about that daily mail columnist who hoaxed her son.

Frogman Henry, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:46 (eighteen years ago)

: - O

Just got offed, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

delete myspace + rest of internet too

Just got offed, Thursday, 15 November 2007 13:49 (eighteen years ago)

can't believe they sued for damage to the lawn

braveclub, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:05 (eighteen years ago)

i wish criminal charges could be filed in this case because then at least police action would focus the responsibility on the actual culprits, rather than feed into a public sentiment of reactionary technophobia. there's human actors working here, and the internet doesn't come up with this shit on its own.

elmo argonaut, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:08 (eighteen years ago)

I can't believe the family can't be charged with anything.

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:09 (eighteen years ago)

xxxxpost Delete myspace? Internet is not to blame; but people. Do you think that shit didn't happen before internet was here?

nathalie, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:10 (eighteen years ago)

Guys it's a FIGURE OF SPEECH. Delete American small-town single-parent families.

Just got offed, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:14 (eighteen years ago)

Maybe Louis means delete the human race?

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

uh oh, i think this thread's about to lurch off topic in a messy fashion...

stevie, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:15 (eighteen years ago)

Excellent work, Louis.

That mong guy that's shit, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

maybe he means ctrl alt delete and go outside

the fact parents set this whole thing up is completely fucked

rizzx, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

OTM re: single parents though, I hate those fuckers.

That mong guy that's shit, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:16 (eighteen years ago)

Agent Jagger completes another mission

Dom Passantino, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:17 (eighteen years ago)

a lazy memedrop is not a figure of speech, jagger. fuck yourself.

elmo argonaut, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:17 (eighteen years ago)

i hope you're not a parent, using such language

rizzx, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:20 (eighteen years ago)

Bulling is Rabbit

Heave Ho, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

Lazy memedrop, eh? Maybe I was trying to convey my disgust for the situation in a manner the rest of ILX would recognise. Maybe I shudda just said "I am disgusted" and left it there. Tactical error acknowledged re: single parents, although I stress I don't have anything against them; I was making a crass rhetorical point. Ass = covered. Zing away.

Just got offed, Thursday, 15 November 2007 14:21 (eighteen years ago)

that link is sick. People even bully dead kids now. wtf!

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 15 November 2007 15:36 (eighteen years ago)

Only the dead have seen the end of zing culture

That mong guy that's shit, Thursday, 15 November 2007 15:40 (eighteen years ago)

it's put Dardenne Prairie on the map

DG, Thursday, 15 November 2007 16:00 (eighteen years ago)

LET YE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE

Gear!'s new Craig's List experiment: men submitting haikus in hopes of random sex

sanskrit, Thursday, 15 November 2007 16:11 (eighteen years ago)

¯\(°_o)/¯

omar little, Thursday, 15 November 2007 16:14 (eighteen years ago)

living out near O'fallon is pretty bleak.

I am amazed they stopped at the foosball table.

"i dont buy the moms story about her constant myspace vigilance"

16 year old mysterious pretty boy is interested in your 13 year old overweight daughter, something ain't right.

bnw, Thursday, 15 November 2007 16:15 (eighteen years ago)

i don't think this would make her the first parent to have unrealistic hopes for their children's popularity.

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 15 November 2007 16:19 (eighteen years ago)

LET YE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE

Now I feel bad about the fake emails I once sent to the creepy submissive guy who gave his email address to an erstwhile female Ilxor in an internet cafe :/

Matt DC, Thursday, 15 November 2007 16:21 (eighteen years ago)

"i dont buy the moms story about her constant myspace vigilance"

A lot of parents have heard too many scare stories to allow kids unsupervised access to the internet though.

Herman G. Neuname, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:06 (eighteen years ago)

not much to say, this is fucked in the extreme.

true that this kind of behavior is pre-internet. a daughter of a family friend crossed the wrong girl at school; afterward they had their phone ringing once, intermittently, all night, for weeks.

gff, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:10 (eighteen years ago)

unrelated

s1ocki, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:11 (eighteen years ago)

um, by "this kind of behavior" i mean: parental involvement or at least approval of bullying. and more broadly: i feel pretty lucky that nothing like this ever happened to me. high school is fucking miserable.

gff, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:16 (eighteen years ago)

this is gross

gbx, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:18 (eighteen years ago)

i know someone who had a fake myspace created by some girls in her school (i think?) called "xxxxxx's aborted fetus" - the fake added all her friends and posted lots of pro-life uh, imagery and personal details about the this girl's abortion. i'm not sure if it was motivated by pro-life nutjobbery or just brutal teenage girl harassment, but luckily the target in this case was mature and able to handle it...it doesn't surprise me at all that someone would become suicidal over something like this.

bell_labs, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:30 (eighteen years ago)

ugh. it sucks to be 14, for everyone.

max, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:32 (eighteen years ago)

This kind of thing happened to me a couple times in middle school. I can only be glad that myspace didn't exist then?

Melissa W, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

i mean, it sounds like the two parents didnt send any of the shitty messages--it was the other girl, with the single mom. and she's 14, and she didnt really have any clue what was going on, and she was trusting other parents. and for the rest of her life shes going to be in therapy dealing with what happened.

max, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

I'm still wrapping my head around the fact that the parents were involved in this whole scheme.

mike a, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:34 (eighteen years ago)

Single mom's daughter (allegedly) only sent one message (and not the final one) - the mother who set it up only claims that she didn't send any of the later messages, 'some other people' who remain nameless did.

Aside from the horrible main story here, what kind of parents get so involved in their kids' minor squabbles (as this started out) to set up a fake MySpace profiles and spy on people?

milo z, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:36 (eighteen years ago)

i dont get the whole "employee" bit. she hired someone to help her harrass this kid?

sunny successor, Thursday, 15 November 2007 17:38 (eighteen years ago)

Everyone does raise valid concerns.

There is a lot of mystification about the law and the internet. Private conduct has been leading the edge in making cyberlaw for some time.

For example, we have been in a "shoot first" wild phase in cyberlaw with respect to copyright. I think it's good for the government to provide a counterbalance by being creative in the area of public protection of minors.

felicity, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:46 (seventeen years ago)

To be clear, I was saying that I think this legal theory has flaws and is not likely to hold up. I also am not sure that what occurred is criminal conduct. I think a civil suit may be the appropriate punishment.

Also, I posted that comment this morning, not this afternoon. Thank you.

jeff, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:47 (seventeen years ago)

Honestly, I don't know if this is a good idea or not. I do think it's an interesting idea and I want to see how it plays out.

HI DERE, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:47 (seventeen years ago)

I don't know that it's cavalier so much as conviction that this is a case worth pursuing and that the system can distinguish it from cases that are not.

felicity, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:48 (seventeen years ago)

xpost -
That's just not true, Dan -- it's a "strong medicine" concern. I don't mean to speak for O.Nate, but I think both of us having been saying something like "I'm generally okay with it IN THIS CASE, but I am skeptical and have concerns about it being misapplied in future." Surely there is nothing neurotic or hypocritical about that.

A lot of responses to those concerns have been "yeah but what else are you going to do in THIS CASE," which ... I was getting frustrated upthread by continually saying "I'm not talking about this case, I'm talking about ideal ways to handle such things in the future so you don't have to keep taking the strong-medicine solution." I think that's been made clear by now, though.

nabisco, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:51 (seventeen years ago)

I could use another 200 words on it.

jeff, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:52 (seventeen years ago)

nabisco, I think you've been saying that but I don't believe o. nate's been saying that. If he has, you're right in that we've spent most of the day arguing past each other.

HI DERE, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:54 (seventeen years ago)

What I probably like most about the case right not is that it uses the litigation privilege to name and shame the scumbags.

felicity, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:57 (seventeen years ago)

(Also I don't believe I ever invoked or implied hypocrisy anywhere...?)

HI DERE, Friday, 16 May 2008 23:58 (seventeen years ago)

I have no problem with the outing. If they aren't subject to criminal punishment, an old fashioned Scarlet Letter will do. Time for them to call a realtor.

-- Bill Magill, Friday, November 16, 2007 6:59 AM (6 months ago) Bookmark Link

^^

felicity, Saturday, 17 May 2008 00:00 (seventeen years ago)

I'm not sure I'm super-comfortable with that in theory.

In practice, I'm all "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" though. Life is hard. ;_;

HI DERE, Saturday, 17 May 2008 00:02 (seventeen years ago)

Furthermore, I would argue that if you disagree with the way a particular law or statute is being exercised, you have avenues through which you can lobby your disagreement, namely your Congressmen; after all, that's why they're there.

There's a little bit of conflation here between making law and interpreting existing law; ultimately, the public doesn't really have a direct say in a lot of that process -- we aren't specialists, we can't get rid of judges on the Supreme Court, etc. I do agree that voting is the answer in principle, though in reality I think that, far more than we realize, we depend largely on the integrity of judges and attorneys to maintain our civil liberties and such.

I have been ignoring Charlie.

Gee, thanks, Nabisco. I'm vaguely curious as to what I did to merit that, considering that I (almost) completely agree with you.

And again, for the record, I'm in favor of making this woman's life miserable; I just don't think this is the right law to do it with. Totally agree that civil court is the place for it, especially if there really is no law under which criminal charges can otherwise be brought.

Charlie Rose Nylund, Saturday, 17 May 2008 00:10 (seventeen years ago)

This might or might not have been linked on here yet -- busy thread, but Steve Pokin, whose initial story on all this brought it to light, has this new piece up:

Banas, the St. Charles County Prosecuting Attorney, said that in his review of the case he relied on the initial investigation done by the FBI here in the St. Louis area.

Banas considered existing state laws regarding stalking, endangerment and harassment and concluded that they did not fit the circumstances of Drew’s involvement in the MySpace hoax that led to 13-year-old Megan Meier committing suicide.

"The state laws didn’t fit, and I still say that’s the problem," Banas said. "In light of that I think our Legislature has stepped up and amended some of those statutes."

A new cyberspace harassment bill this morning passed in the Missouri House and is expected to pass in the Senate, provided the bill makes it to the Senate floor for a vote. The legislative session ends at 6 p.m. today.

U.S. Attorney Hanaway, who heads the office for the Eastern District of Missouri, was asked why federal law provided an opportunity for charges in Los Angeles and not here in Missouri, where events occurred.

In a brief, prepared statement, Hanaway said:

"This office reviewed the Drew case for cyber threats, and found that none were made. Because the MySpace servers are in the State of California, the U.S. Attorney for the Central District has jurisdiction in this case. We have worked closely with the U.S. Attorney in the Central District of California and fully support their prosecution."

...

Drew and her husband Curt were contacted at home for comment late Thursday afternoon.

"Not right now," Curt Drew said.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 17 May 2008 00:17 (seventeen years ago)

Yeah see that's the difference between this and Mississippi '64, you know? Obviously I'm glad to hear they're amending existing laws to try and catch this. Hopefully in a way that's, you know, precise but flexible.

Sorry, Charlie, I wasn't trying to be mean with the "ignoring" thing -- I don't think you were being terrible wrong, it just seemed like your arguments were tacking off in a direction that didn't seem helpful, and leading Dan/Felicity away from clarifying the stuff I wanted to know. Not your problem.

nabisco, Saturday, 17 May 2008 01:21 (seventeen years ago)

can't the parents even be done for fraud?

-- CharlieNo4, Thursday, November 15, 2007 8:32 AM (Thursday, November 15, 2007 8:32 AM) Bookmark Link

^^^ the FBI reads ILE

HI DERE, Saturday, 17 May 2008 02:04 (seventeen years ago)

Great thread.

felicity, Saturday, 17 May 2008 02:14 (seventeen years ago)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1137/841452186_9546bbadf1.jpg

Charlie Rose Nylund, Saturday, 17 May 2008 17:26 (seventeen years ago)

nabisco, I think you've been saying that but I don't believe o. nate's been saying that. If he has, you're right in that we've spent most of the day arguing past each other.

I'm kind of undecided on the application of these specific statutes in this specific case. Do I think it would be a good thing to have some sort of precedent that would dissuade cyber-bullying? Yes. Do I think these statutes are the right ones to use? No.

I'm not sure which consideration should outweigh the other here. Nothing is going to bring that girl back to life. The parents can seek remuneration in civil court. The woman has already been punished pretty severely by becoming the national poster child for obsessively cruel online behavior to minors. This case is already leading to more specific legislation being drafted which will more directly apply to cyber-bullying and without causing a dangerous precedent. So do I think we really need to have a criminal case against this particular woman, even if leads to a very broad interpretation of a bad law becoming precedent? Still undecided.

o. nate, Monday, 19 May 2008 16:34 (seventeen years ago)

I'm pleased something is being done about this . I still feel the same revulsion as I did six months ago when I started this thread.

Herman G. Neuname, Monday, 19 May 2008 16:59 (seventeen years ago)

interesting comparison:

http://www.startribune.com/local/19351084.html

Court: Man can be charged with identity theft in suicide
By RYAN J. FOLEY , Associated Press

Last update: May 29, 2008 - 12:53 PM

MADISON, Wis. - A Wisconsin man accused of driving his boss to suicide can be charged with identity theft for sending e-mails under his name, an appeals court ruled Thursday.

Christopher Baron has admitted hacking into the work e-mail of Mark Fisher, who was director of Jefferson's Emergency Medical Service program.

Baron, an emergency medical technician, forwarded to 10 people e-mails from Fisher's account suggesting the boss was having an affair with a female employee. Fisher, who was married, committed suicide the next day.

Baron, 32, was charged with six criminal counts, including identity theft, obstructing an officer and computer crimes. Prosecutors filed and then dropped a criminal defamation charge.

The only issue in Thursday's ruling by the District 4 Court of Appeals was whether Baron could be charged with identity theft.

Baron argued he had a right under the First Amendment to defame a public official with true information. He told investigators he wanted people to know about Fisher's affair and that his boss was not a "golden boy."

The e-mails, forwarded to local EMS workers and Fisher's wife, showed Fisher was trading sexual innuendoes with the female employee and using an apartment owned by the department to carry on the affair.

A Jefferson County judge ruled last year the identity theft law was unconstitutional as applied to Baron's case because he stole the identity of a public official. Prosecutors appealed.

The District 4 Court of Appeals reversed the decision and reinstated the charge. The law does not violate Baron's free speech rights, Judge Burnie Bridge wrote for a three-judge panel.

"In sum, the identity theft statute neither prohibited Baron from disseminating information about Fisher nor prevented the public from receiving that information," she wrote. "Instead, the statute prohibited Baron from purporting to be Fisher when he sent the e-mails."

Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen, whose office represented prosecutors in the appeal, said the ruling was right in recognizing Wisconsin's identity theft laws limit conduct, not speech.

"Citizens have a fundamental constitutional right to criticize public officials, so long as they do not disseminate information they know to be false or act with reckless disregard to the truth," Van Hollen said. "There is no constitutional right, however, to damage someone's reputation by assuming that person's identity without their consent."

Baron's attorney, Daniel P. Dunn, did not immediately return a voice message.

gff, Thursday, 29 May 2008 19:04 (seventeen years ago)

> A Wisconsin man accused of driving his boss to suicide

Livin' the American dream!

Oilyrags, Thursday, 29 May 2008 19:12 (seventeen years ago)

http://z.about.com/d/crime/1/0/N/S/austin_s.jpg

jeff, Thursday, 29 May 2008 19:26 (seventeen years ago)

i go to a drive-in theatre in jefferson.

amateurist, Thursday, 29 May 2008 19:45 (seventeen years ago)

It's an interesting comparison because it seems to be another case where the statute that's being applied was not designed with this type of case in mind. What that Wisconsin guy did who forwarded the emails wasn't really identity theft. It didn't really matter whether it appeared that the person who forwarded the incriminating emails was the boss or someone else - the important thing was that the incriminating emails were made public. If the guy could have easily forwarded them anonymously some other way, he probably would have done so.

o. nate, Thursday, 29 May 2008 19:48 (seventeen years ago)

but then he might be violating the TOS of hotmail or gmail

jeff, Thursday, 29 May 2008 19:55 (seventeen years ago)

one month passes...

Lori Drew Moves to Dismiss Indictment

The argument that the actions were not "intentional" or "unauthorized" because they can't prove that the defendant read the terms of service is pretty weak.

They may have a point on the vagueness grounds generally in that the overall purpose of the statute seems to be directed at economic fraud and criminal statues must be construed strictly.

However, the unique facts of this case arguably do fall under the literal wording of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. The defendants said they created the account to "obtain information" - purportedly what the victim was saying about the other girl. Then it turned into something really malicious. It's beyond cyberbullying, I think, because the defendants hid behind a false identity.

The difference between overlapping criminal and civil offenses is generally on the level of intent and burden of proof. I'd be inclined towards a more transparent approach and let it go to a jury.

felicity, Thursday, 24 July 2008 17:36 (seventeen years ago)

three months pass...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7736078.stm

Initial jury selection has begun in the trial of a Missouri woman alleged to have used a fake MySpace profile to bully a girl who later killed herself.

Pfunkboy Formerly Known As... (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 18 November 2008 21:31 (seventeen years ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081126/ap_on_re_us/internet_suicide

Misdemeanor convictions, mistrial on the main conspiracy charge.

Alex in SF, Wednesday, 26 November 2008 20:09 (seventeen years ago)

blame the victim ftw

mayor jingleberries, Wednesday, 26 November 2008 21:52 (seventeen years ago)

Will there be a retrial?

Pfunkboy Formerly Known As... (Herman G. Neuname), Wednesday, 26 November 2008 23:09 (seventeen years ago)

Probably not, but a year and a $100,000 is better than the nothing which seemed to be happening before the Feds got involved.

Alex in SF, Wednesday, 26 November 2008 23:14 (seventeen years ago)

Potential year and $100,000 that is, but I have a feeling that she won't get a light sentence.

Alex in SF, Wednesday, 26 November 2008 23:16 (seventeen years ago)

seven months pass...

Not surprising:

A federal judge tentatively decided today to dismiss the case against a Missouri woman who had been convicted of computer fraud stemming from an Internet hoax that prompted a teenage girl to commit suicide.

Lori Drew of Darden Prairie, Mo., was convicted in November of three misdemeanor counts of illegally accessing a protected computer.

The decision by U.S. District Judge George H. Wu will not become final until his written ruling is filed, probably next week. Wu said he was concerned that if Drew was found guilty of violating the terms of service in using MySpace, anyone who violated the terms could be convicted of a crime.

Drew 50, was to be sentenced in May but Wu had delayed the sentencing until today, saying he wanted to consider the defense motion to dismiss the entire case.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:40 (sixteen years ago)

a few people upthread might be surprised

josh fenderman (jeff), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:54 (sixteen years ago)

she's probably paid enough of a price at this point tbh

spiritual giant Cubby Culbertson (omar little), Thursday, 2 July 2009 19:59 (sixteen years ago)

probably not tbh

the sideburns are album-specific (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:02 (sixteen years ago)

She still needs to get run over by an ice cream truck imo.

Detroit Metal City (Nicole), Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:10 (sixteen years ago)

anything less than a good 8 year stretch in some minimum security prison is too little.

ian, Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:32 (sixteen years ago)

really don't think she could ever pay enough of a price

rembrandt what (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:33 (sixteen years ago)

what's your take on waterboarding

ian, Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:51 (sixteen years ago)

He thinks it would be too good for her.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:54 (sixteen years ago)

there are a few things that i wouldn't wish on this woman, waterboarding is one of them

rembrandt what (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:57 (sixteen years ago)

http://www.bondageblog.com/bondage-pictures/john-willie-girls-in-stocks.jpg

ian, Thursday, 2 July 2009 20:58 (sixteen years ago)

bondage-pictures

rembrandt what (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:01 (sixteen years ago)

Wu said he was concerned that if Drew was found guilty of violating the terms of service in using MySpace, anyone who violated the terms could be convicted of a crime.

this is stupid.

mizzell, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:02 (sixteen years ago)

I wouldn't go that far. A lot of smart legal minds (see EFF post from way above) seemed concerned about the implication of the precedent.

Alex in SF, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:16 (sixteen years ago)

yeah i agree - this would've opened the door for ppl with fake 50 cent myspaces and shit

rembrandt what (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:21 (sixteen years ago)

to be prosecuted

rembrandt what (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:21 (sixteen years ago)

seems to me like the woman clearly did something really horrible but there was no law she specifically violated to do so, or the evidence on hand was not enough to go for something more intuitive or morally obvious like "harassment", so they used something technical. that's kind of the nature of legal work (we have a shitload of lawyers on this board so i shd keep my mouth shut, but eh) you make the argument you have at hand.

goole, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:24 (sixteen years ago)

or anyone who just didn't want to use their actual full identity
xpost

The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Thursday, 2 July 2009 21:24 (sixteen years ago)


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