2008 Primaries Thread

Symmetry required gabbneb to start this.

Wait wtf why can't we just start a new thread AFTER the primaries since the other one is already the de facto primaries thread?

Obama just schooled Billary. LOL

none of you are even reading each others' posts anymore, are you?

delete thread

I'll have to find the speech on Ye Olde Youtube.

Gracias so much Tomboto.

This is the primaries thread. Before there was a looking-forward-to-primaries thread. Then there will be an election thread.

delete jhosehawfurka

Biden (D-Acerbia) dropped out? :(

ok from daniel, esq on the other thread

he currently has John Edwards hammering away at HRC, giving Obama the luxury to remain, to a degree, "above the fray."

I think HRC is gonna start throwing shit at O soon enough, and he'll have to fight back. It's easy for me to see Edwards 'rising above' in that scenario.

hey what happened to el tomboto?

Biden will now not-so-quietly angle to become either the secretary of state or veep for the next Dem nominee.

Biden as Sec of State would make me haps

biden is a fucktard credit card conman stooge

william shatner as press secretary is the only appointment I care about

I'd like Richardson as Sec of State, but he might also make a good running partner.

I think HRC is gonna start throwing shit at O soon enough, and he'll have to fight back. It's easy for me to see Edwards 'rising above' in that scenario.

-- BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, January 3, 2008 10:26 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

lol yeah right man. his whole persona is about fighting

xpost

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-09/07/xin_550901070921437242812.jpg

I think HRC is gonna start throwing shit at O soon enough, and he'll have to fight back. It's easy for me to see Edwards 'rising above' in that scenario.

Depends. Obama's going to be in the lead in New Hampshire tomorrow morning. If he keeps rising, he may not have to get into the muck. And as long as Edwards is around, he'll have to keep punching hard.

Biden wrote the three greatest pieces of legislation in history - the Magna Carta, the authorization for the Louisiana purchase, and the RAVE act

I thought he authored the Dred Scott decision too?

But Edwards still has a chance. He's got to win at least South Carolina to stay viable, tho.

edwards, never had a shot

fucking drug warrior asshoole trying to restrict my vulnerability to ecstacy wtf

Maybe he (Edwards) didn't. I thought he had a chance in Iowa and, if he won there, he'd have a puncher's-chance in New Hampsire.

CNN just reported 212,000 Dem turnout. In 2004, it was 125,000.

that's Kind Of A Big Deal, right?

yah totes

I think HRC is gonna start throwing shit at O soon enough,

ummmmm like as soon as six weeks ago?

also yeah that is totally rad about dem. turnout

I'm guessing that's a product of having more than one popular candidate?

What was the Republican turnout?

tombot- maybe lock one thread or the other?

-- gr8080, Thursday, January 3, 2008 6:49 PM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

About 114,000 Republicans turned out. The last contested Republican caucuses in 2000 drew about 88,000. George W. Bush, then the governor of Texas, won.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/huckobama.jpg

huckateeth

No? OK, fine. We'll go with the fucking bloated thread then.

yup you sure will.
you kids are some complainy ass complaintron bitches

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqoFwZUp5vc

I'm guessing that's a product of having more than one popular candidate?

also to do with longer lead time (more press) and much savvier stat-addicted teams in place, shoveling yr snow and sitting yr kids

Carried over from the last thread... You ppl are truly sportsfan nutbagz with the "2% reporting" tea leaves.

Obama -- who I still might vote for -- increasingly strikes me as the New Mario Cuomo: makes kinda pretty speeches hitting the idealistic chords, canny in his votes/governance, endorses scum when playing strategically (Lieberman in CT primary last year for Obama, D'Amato in a Sen race for Cuomo). Of course Obama has the added shining-armor-of-youth factor.

Bill Clinton did not look drunk, acc to Gergen and the Amen Chorus he looked "devastated." LOLOLOLOL

I wish the Chappaqua Hillbillies had waved bye-bye at the camera on that platform last night, with their fixed grins of defeat. Nice touch having Madeleine "Madam Genocide" Albright up front (I though she was Ma Rodham for a second).

Carter probably not much opposition for reelection

uuuuuh, Carter had a death-battle with Ted Kennedy in '80 just to get renominated.

i hope morbs is looking at that cnn table and trying to figure out why edwards won the conservatives and electability-fanboys, and clinton tied in the union households

I leave the inside-baseball to you, honeybunch, cuz I don't give a shit.

clinton campaign complaining abt obama celebrity is soooo absurd

OTFM! "The celebrification of politics" -- yeah, ever since a Warner Bros movie star became the defining prez of modern times.

also, Obama has cuter kids than Cuomo.

^

And less skeletons in his closet (as far as we know anyway.) Also Cuomo couldn't ACTUALLY ever decide to run so really it's a fucking stupid analogy, ain't it?

I wasn't talking about their office-specific ambitions, so no, not that fucking stupid.

What were Mario's skeletoons, aside from Bill Clinton's infamous bimbo-taped remark that "he looks like a mafioso"?

Ya know honestly I can't remember now (was it family? graft?), but wasn't there schtick somewhere? I remember being told that was one of the reason why he never actually ran.

never stopped Gerry Ferraro

Um actually it did.

BEDFORD, N.H. - He flatlined in Iowa and he's struggling in New Hampshire, but Rudy Giuliani shook off the early-state blues Thursday as only he can.

"None of this worries me - Sept. 11, there were times I was worried," Giuliani said.

LOL

haaaa

thats frustrating as hell too cuz the idea that nuanced policy decisions, many of which will be reliant on any number of variables and priorities that could change all of a sudden, demand something a lot more flexible than some reductive 'ten point plan' xp

Perhaps just saying what that "beyond partisanship" crap means is what ppl are waiting for. I want more partisanship, the Dems do "reaching acrioss the aisle" as an ugly habit.

whereas republicans are the kind who will fuck a dem in the ass and not even have the common courtesy to give him a reach across.

if you want to draw contrasts between obama and clinton in terms of how they would govern (and I know you do), i think obama has a clear advantage here because i think he would be so much better at creating alliances in the legislature than hillary clinton -- the electability / polarizing argument playing out in the primaries now has implications that reach well into the presidential term. hillary in the oval office, i feel, would turn the aisle into an impenetrable barrier

not to mention the amount of political hay gop congressppl could make off of standing up to hillary

"standing up" in scare quotes

and never even mind that, because I still think McCain would beat her. By a surprising amount, maybe.

^^^^^ This.

yep

Elmo, Bison & Kenan OTM OTM OTM. Clinton vs. McCain would bring indifferent Republicans out of the woodwork. Much less true of Obama vs. McCain. If Clinton did somehow win, having her in the White House would be (almost) as much a boon for Republicans as Bush has been for Democrats. The fact that I think Obama could actually manage to govern without further polarizing the parties is a big part of his appeal to me.

i mean for all the talk of her so-called managerial acumen, she's run a pretty poor campaign for someone who was the prohibitive favorite, yeah? i should think this would be a sort of warning sign should she win the nom.

Clinton vs. McCain would bring indifferent Republicans out of the woodwork. Much less true of Obama vs. McCain.

people are always saying this.. proof?

THE REPUBLICAN BASE IS PRAYING FOR CLINTON/SHE'S SO POLARIZING just seems like a talking point to me

they would reunite voltron style to stop her.

yeah clinton hate on the right is massive massive massive

hillary hate is real, and it's calling from inside the house

Gut feeling. No proof to be had. But over the years the amoung of truly rabid Hillary-hate I've encountered, from both Republicans and Democrats, inclines me to trust my gut on this. She's a lightning rod. That's not her fault, but fault isn't the issue. I've just never seen that kind of rancor directed towards Obama, by anyone.

just review rightwing talking points pre-the rise of Obama and they were all frothing at the mouth to run against Hillary (Rove most obvious example, among others)

or just look up the number of rightwing books about how Hillary is going to become president and ruin the country

brainwasher, if you live in red states (or counties or cities or whatever), the anti-clinton fervor is palpable. the risk of that playing a factor in a general election setting cannot be disputed. not to mention head to head polls (which i'll concede are difficult to make any meaningful inferences for november at this point) show a mccain-hrc race being quite close and an obama-mccain race playing slightly to obama's favor.

* Aldrich, Gary. Unlimited Access: An FBI Agent Inside the Clinton White House. Regnery Publishing, 1996. ISBN 0-89526-454-4.
* American Conservative Union. Hillary Rodham Clinton: What Every American Should Know. Green Hill Publishing, 2005. ISBN 0-89803-164-8.
* Andersen, Christopher. Bill and Hillary: The Marriage. William Morrow, 1999. ISBN 0-688-16755-1.
* Andersen, Christopher, American Evita: Hillary Clinton's Path to Power. HarperCollins, 2004. ISBN 0-06-056254-4.
* Boswell, John, The Unshredded Files of Hillary and Bill Clinton. Broadway, 1996. ISBN 0-553-06763-X.
* Bozell, L. Brent with Tim Graham. Whitewash: How the News Media Are Paving Hillary Clinton's Path to the Presidency. Crown Forum, 2007. ISBN 0-307-34020-1.
* Buchanan, Bay, The Extreme Makeover of Hillary (Rodham) Clinton. Regnery Publishing, 2007. ISBN 978-1596985070.
* Carpenter, Amanda B.. The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy's Dossier on Hillary Clinton. Regnery Publishing, 2006. ISBN 1-59698-014-1.
* Goldberg, Jonah, Liberal Fascism: The Totalitarian Temptation from Mussolini to Hillary Clinton. Doubleday, 2007. ISBN 0-385-51184-1.
* Horowitz, David and Poe, Richard. The Shadow Party : How Hillary Clinton, George Soros, and the Sixties Left Took Over the Democratic Party. Nelson Current, 2006. ISBN 1-59555-044-5.
* Klein, Edward. The Truth About Hillary: What She Knew, When She Knew It, and How Far She'll Go to Become President. Penguin, 2005. ISBN 1-59523-006-8.
* Kuiper, Thomas. I've Always Been a Yankees Fan: Hillary Clinton in Her Own Words. World Ahead Publishing, 2006. ISBN 0-9746701-8-9.
* LeBorts, George and Wojciech Wilk (illus.), The Very Unofficial Hillary Clinton Coloring Book. Strobooks, 2007. ISBN 978-0979493706.
* Limbacher, Carl. Hillary's Scheme: Inside the Next Clinton's Ruthless Agenda to Take the White House. Crown Publishing, 2003. ISBN 0-7615-3115-7.
* Milton, Joyce. The First Partner: Hillary Rodham Clinton. William Morris, 1999. ISBN 0-688-15501-4.
* Morris, Dick. Rewriting History. HarperCollins, 2004. ISBN 0-06-073668-2.
* Morris, Dick and McGann, Eileen. Condi vs. Hillary : The Next Great Presidential Race. HarperCollins, 2005. ISBN 0-06-083913-9.
* Noonan, Peggy. The Case Against Hillary Clinton. HarperCollins, 2000. ISBN 0-06-039340-8.
* Olson, Barbara. Hell to Pay: The Unfolding Story of Hillary Rodham Clinton. Regnery Publishing, 1999. ISBN 0-89526-197-9.
* Podhoretz, John. Can She Be Stopped? : Hillary Clinton Will Be the Next President of the United States Unless .... Crown Publishing, 2006. ISBN 0-307-33730-8.
* Poe, Richard. Hillary's Secret War: The Clinton Conspiracy to Muzzle Internet Journalists. Nelson Current, 2004. ISBN 0-7852-6013-7.
* Regan, Turk. The Hillary Clinton Voodoo Kit: Stick It to Her, Before She Sticks It to You!. Running Press Book Publishers, 2007. ISBN 0-7624-2965-8.
* Tyrrell, R. Emmett and Davis, Mark. Madame Hillary: The Dark Road to the White House. Regnery Publishing, 2004. ISBN 0-89526-067-0.
* Wiley, Mike. Diary Of Hillary's Right-Wing Conspirator: Exposing the Media’s Lies while battling Hillary’s Far Left Reign in the Democratic Party - 1993-1996. AuthorHouse, 2005. ISBN 1-4259-0659-1.

* Goldberg, Jonah, Liberal Fascism: The Totalitarian Temptation from Mussolini to Hillary Clinton. Doubleday, 2007. ISBN 0-385-51184-1.

hahahaha I mean come ON

wow lol

Unlimited Access: An FBI Agent Inside the Clinton White House

This one claims she decorated a WH Xmas tree w/ roach clips and condoms.

THE REPUBLICAN BASE IS PRAYING FOR CLINTON/SHE'S SO POLARIZING just seems like a talking point to me

people are always saying this.. proof?

i might try to dig them up, but i believe there are polls which indicate "high negatives", meaning that while many people may like her, those who don't aren't just indifferent, but in fact have negative feelings towards her

That's not her fault, but fault isn't the issue.

worth repeating

the whole clintons have baggage / she's polarizing / etc. issue may not be "fair," but it wasn't invented for election season. it's just a fact!

that genie's not going back in the bottle

Plenty of evidence. Rasmussen: 'The reality is that public opinion concerning Hillary Clinton is much more firmly established than it is for any other candidate.' That opinion is far more negative than for any other remaining Presidential candidate, as 47% will vote against her. By contrast, only 33% say they'll definitely vote against McCain.

More later.

Much more to say on these, and I suppose you can find what you want in them. But to suggest that there's no evidence of strong, committed opposition to HRC is ignoring reality, not challenging talking-points.

thanks, daniel. i probably wouldn't have gotten to digging that up until later.

as i tried to point out upthread, the big difference between hart and obama is that hart was running on a shoestring and obama has $$$ like mad, lol internet.

and on another thread, i said this:

it's simplistic but it has a ring of truth: hillary's sell is nuts-n-bolts and obama's is about something a little more metaphysical than that, no? can we have broad agreement on that at least.

not to bring up REAGAN again, but in electoral terms the metaphysicians have thumped the mechanics pretty handily.

(this is getting a little o/t but) there is plenty of hopes-and-dreams stuff attached to HRC's candidacy, and i don't have much doubt about obama's ability -- relative to HRC's -- to engage in 'hard work' or 'trench warfare' to enact policy. the question in my mind is, how do you make the sale, to get in the door, to do the work in the first place?

-- gff, Tuesday, February 12, 2008 12:15 PM

again, talking about unity and hope and common purpose is a GREAT way to get, surprise!, highly contested and partisan goals put through. i don't see a contradiction at all.

lots of xps

...lol regnery

the Hillary Hatred is as baffling to me as conservative McCain hatred.

conservatives hate their mothers

It's totally possible for me to envision Obama approaching governance like Reagan and his troika did in Reagan's first six months of office, during which they managed to get their economic package with a few votes from Democrats -- due largely to RR's great personal charm and not giving a shit about talking to someone on the other side.

for all the talk of her so-called managerial acumen, she's run a pretty poor campaign for someone who was the prohibitive favorite, yeah?

Hey, I'm as worried about Hillary as the nominee as the next guy, but this is superfluous. It's fucking hard, and strange, and random, to run a presidential campaign--even with Bill's experience with nat'l campaigns, anyone that thought she would 'know how to do it' and therefore have it easy is pretty much an idiot.

Does anyone believe that having whatever skills it takes to win your party's nomination have much relation to the skills it takes to be a president?

ok, healthcare:

hillary needs to require the mandate because, besides being a good populist-sounding talking point, it would give her greater bangaining strength with insurance companies and health care providers. it seems probable to me that these negotiations would be piloted by lobbies who would guarantee their clients' co-operation in exchange for de-regulation or tax-breaks for the insurance and / or health care industries.

am i on the right track so far? y/n? i just want to drill down on this issue because everyone takes for granted that universal health care would be a nearly prohibitive measure to actually enact.

Does anyone believe that having whatever skills it takes to win your party's nomination have much relation to the skills it takes to be a president?

Bill Clinton to thread!

anyone that thought she would 'know how to do it' and therefore have it easy is pretty much an idiot.

so... Bill and Hillary are both idiots?

'it' being 'win the national campaign'

yes I know - they've both repeatedly trumpeted how she's been "vetted" and has the "best set of skills" to fight the Republican attack machine etc

Guys can we have a new primaries thread since this one is retardo long?

I'd say go for it.

agreed

Do the honors, HI DERE

After the GE, tho, we should fuse them all together to make one giant thread.

(j/k)

call it the Denver Death March

noooo they steelin my retardo long thread

I was really hoping for this to break the 10K barrier.

2008 Primaries Thread 2: THE QUICKENING