Just be yourself.

post-structuralism

I think it is good to be honest to yourself. Acting naturally, however, is always something that gets humans into trouble or bad scrapes.

you could try being somebody else, but make sure you have their permission first. because it would be hella freaky to come home and see yourself sitting in the living room drinking your beer and getting head from your own girlfriend, but having it not be you.

TWO RIKERS IS TWO TOO MANY

post-structuralism

I'm guessing that you're talking about how notions of personal identity are a bullshit construct when analyzed, but...I still think that there are ways of being, acting which ring more authentic then others. And, yeah, I realize that "authenticity" is a dubious concept in and of itself, but, still, in day-to-day life, I think there's something to be said for sorting out a way of life that is more in accord with the deepest parts of ourselves, as opposed to all manner of inherited stuff that we accumulate throughout life.

I know that things are getting tougher
When you can't get the top off from the bottom of the barrel.
Wide open road of my future now... It's looking fucking narrow.

All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
[x2]

We get told to decide
Just like as if I'm not gonna change my mind.

All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
[x2]

Whatcha gonna do with yourself,
Boy better make up your mind.
Whatcha gonna do with yourself boy,
You're running out of time.

This time I got it all figured out

All I know is that I don't know
All I know is that I don't know nothing
[x4]

And that's fine

Acting naturally, however, is always something that gets humans into trouble or bad scrapes.

You really think so? Please expand upon that, if you feel so inclined.

I was amused when I read "On Bullshit" and discovered that one of Frankfurt's conclusions is that straining for the authentic is perhaps the bullshittest thing of all

xxpost is that Crimpshrine? Op Ivy? I bought that record, but can't remember who it is.

But Tombot, don't you feel it on a visceral level when you are acting in some way that is betraying yourself in some way? 'Cos I do.

in regards to myself, not you, obv.

By that, dell, I meant "act naturally" in the way some people use it to imply that basic acts of courtesy are unnatural because they are constructed by society. Not the song "act naturally," whose narrator's behavior is pretty much mine (except the part about movies).

http://i10.glitter-graphics.org/pub/1/1140r4teg1tiai.gif

Oh, okay, Abbott.

I went through a period in high school where I couldn't even engage in the most basic of social niceties, like for example, saying "hi" to friends, b/c it seemed so silly to me at the time. In retrospect, I guess that my lit teacher pushing "The Stranger" on my tender psyche at the time fucked me up some.

But I guess I want to avoid (maybe unavoidable in this context?) debate about what is "natural" human behavior, and focus more on personal felt senses of authenticity vs the received alternatives.

OP IVY

ringo @ shea sez

Thanks, nickalicious. That was bugging me.

This house is more a mate for your dope drop-jawed gaze than it is a place for me or a shelter of comfort for you. And I know it's the shoes and the hair you don't like because I've been in your rotten home before. What I want is metal everywhere, steel-plated machinery, while I sit inside to make the soundtrack to the collapse of everything- just like that night I was high on something. I wanted to walk around town and see nothing but old gutted-out warehouses about to fall down. At least that would make you see the urgency of your state. This revolution that you speak of isn't locked away in a Crimpshire song and it's sure as hell not going to come from the top and trickle down. And it will under absolutely no circumstances even be minutely advanced by scoffing at black shoes and black hair. It's getting way past time for you to join the ranks of angular America, being driven mad by the persistent beeping of the bobcat and the rumble of the street drill. Because I hate construction, but I know the people doing it hate it even more. And I think that's the seed of your problem. Inversely. And once you realize that, you will either succumb or change. Which in some way brings us right back around to this blasted house. You either chirp or eat. And I'm not talking about on your own dollar, because it's only your penny if you're living. So next time please don't talk to me about some fanzine you're going to do because I've been hearing that bullshit for three years. To make a real change, you go straight for direct action. And it will under absolutely no circumstances even be minutely advanced by scoffing at black shoes and black hair

milemaker, really?

xpost
Wow, is that from a MR&R letter?

Back in the day they made it sound like the Gilman St. scene was some Valhalla or something.

# Just be yourself. [Started by dell, last updated 32 seconds ago] 22 new answers

Who's got odds on the first sockpuppet on this thread?

So, I have a bunch of respect for Western academics who are all about deconstructing personal identity, authenticity, etc...though, I s'pose I am more familiar with (at least vaguely equivalent) Buddhist traditions of doing the same. But, I also have enormous respect for the Western psychological tradition of addressing issues of individuation, which is what I'm primarily concerned with here.

Like, one can find one's self in a situation which just plain feels "right", or conversely feels all wrong...and then from there, one could say , "well, this is just based on A+B+C... ad infinitum which has occured in my life...it all amounts to levels of cultural conditioning filtered down to the individual"...but, at a certain point, it seems to me that one can't argue with the felt sense in one's bones that such-and-such a situation is way congruent or completely incongruent with an overall sense of one's self that is tough to argue with; academics be damned.

because of the wang

It is way easy for me to overthink this command in very counterproductive ways, so I try to avoid thinking about it even in broad detail. To get into is to never get out of.

I guess that is the very reason why I want to get into it; it's always seemed like such a weird command, fraught with paradox. The song lyric that I quoted when introducing this thread kinda addresses that; not exactly, but close enough.

I think I understand, even if only sloppily, the intellectual underpinnings behind why personal identity is a dubious concept when investigated...but again, I guess I am more concerned at the moment with issues around the notion of individuation as some Western psychological traditions see it. It's all well and good to say that "self" is a myth, essentially, but, really, what leads us, under the best of circumstances, to favor certain specificities of the myth over others?

A sense of insecurity is predicated upon not having a stable sense of authentic selfhood, right? I am extremely "guilty" of this. I feel like my life has been a history of, to one degree or another, acquiescing to others' expectations of who I "should" be. I realize that means that I am something of a thirty-something living out an adolescent's mindset, but hey, that's where I'm at.

Well, dell, that mindset can lead to a chronic form of anxiety. It's called Generalized Anxiety Disorder. 1/33 people have it

We GAD people often blame society and our parents -- as we should. it is largely their fault that we have these insecurities. They are the ones who use negative re-enforcement when you are just being yourself. Look at Butters on south park. He is stuck in a messed up world and that's why he is gonna grow up to be a hopeless case). If you have GAD, you are stuck with it forever. I have it and it blows. In fact, the best thing is to not talk about it because it might be contagious.. mindsets can be contagious. So sorry folks, learn to be apathetic and you won't develop senseless insecurities.

Wait, which parts of your post are you being serious about? I'm confused.

I know my post didn't directly relate to yours. I was serious about all of it.

personal identity is a dubious concept when investigated

I think that most of this, actually, is because our language is incredibly poorly equipped to talk about ourselves. and even as we try to come to grips with defining the self and what it does, we get hosed up because when are you describing the self and when are you simply talking about behavior, and if they're the same thing, why do we need the self? don't we have tons and tons of things we already know about behavior and a whole set of shiny tools for discourse about it?

walker percy is really dismissive of the post-structuralists, and I think rightly so; at the end of the day all the deconstruction of the concept of identity has gotten us no further than a college coffeeshop chitchat about string theory. he doesn't necessarily do a great job of separating the self and behavior, but he's trying to stay above that fray and be comprehensible to the layman besides (talking about lost in the cosmos)

of course nobody has any option except to be themselves, so in one sense, you shouldn't worry about it, but there certainly is a pervasive sense of stress and anxiousness in the modern world that we don't have any ownership of our identity besides a few superficial decisions. I would say something about our cognition not being built to deal with living in a state of constant estrangement from each other here, but I still have real work to do

It's like trying to explain why your favorite band is your favorite band. We're all in the same boat there?

I don't know how anyone can say we are all the same though. I certainly believe I have many different characteristics that make me unique.

good old neon

*I went through a period in high school where I couldn't even engage in the most basic of social niceties, like for example, saying "hi" to friends, b/c it seemed so silly to me at the time. In retrospect, I guess that my lit teacher pushing "The Stranger" on my tender psyche at the time fucked me up some*

dude, many people I know (myself included) had to study it for high school. But I know what you mean. I started smoking and wearing a beret.

I started driving a different route every day and putting on all my clothes in a different order (and a million other things) so I didn't get "stuck in a pattern." But then a teacher pointed out that's when we get to zone out and think, that routine like that isn't harmful at all.

Thanks for your thoughtful response, Tombot.

I think that most of this, actually, is because our language is incredibly poorly equipped to talk about ourselves.

This is why I have such admiration for the Indo-Tibetan traditions; their language is more equipped to discuss matters of the self, mind, etc. It's something like the oft-repeated (but false, as I understand it) trope about Inuits having hundreds of words to describe different varieties of snowfall. The Tibetan language (and Sanskrit, as well, if I'm not mistaken) has at least a dozen different words which fall under the English category of "mind".

walker percy is really dismissive of the post-structuralists, and I think rightly so; at the end of the day all the deconstruction of the concept of identity has gotten us no further than a college coffeeshop chitchat about string theory.

I would tend to agree with him; it can be diverting to talk about these things, but based on my personal experiences of interacting with people who have been immersed in post-structuralist theory along their academic paths, I don't really see how it's contributed to some overall sense of well-being on their life paths.

of course nobody has any option except to be themselves, so in one sense, you shouldn't worry about it, but there certainly is a pervasive sense of stress and anxiousness in the modern world that we don't have any ownership of our identity besides a few superficial decisions. I would say something about our cognition not being built to deal with living in a state of constant estrangement from each other here, but I still have real work to do

From reading a bunch of your posts on ILX in other contexts, I feel that I'm in large part sympathetic to your views vis a vis the contemporary frame of modern life fucking up everybody to the degree that there are no "winners" to be found. I mean, here we are, in a society which would pride itself on being the summum bonum of human aspirations, yet, sheesh, one only need look to this particular internet message board as a counter-example...here we are, people living in a world which people living in other places and times would kill to be participating in, but yet, alienation claims an unholy foothold. Fuck, why are people who live in one of the most cosmopolitan societies on the planet spending time arguing about where to get the best hot dog, or even more pointedly, taking cheap jibes at each other via their computers? There's something wrong with this equation, I think... Or maybe not. Maybe this is bringing everybody together in some magical way that I just can't fathom at this point.

I don't mean to pick on the noise board, ILX in general, or whatever...seriously, replace with myspace, facebook culture, or what have you. The point that I'm trying to drive at (as tired as it may be) is that this unprecedented era of communication seems to have succeeded in large part in bringing people to some weird level of pettiness that pales grievously in comparison to any utopian visions of the future that had been previously predicted. But that is probably food (pun not intended) for a whole other thread or realm of discussion (why are people who live in NYC complaining about being bored, sniping at each other in petty ways...but hey, blah blah, people are human, so...)

But what I'm trying to clumsily say is that I appreciate your perspective, expressed here and elsewhere (and please correct me to whatever degree I'm misapprhending yr view of things) of how today's luxurious communication technologies may have rendered us even more boxed-in to our own head-up-the-ass worldviews than ever before. Okay, that is a large leap, but maybe it makes sense to some degree. Like, fuck the hippies, lol, but, I am reminded of something I read years ago (I think it was in a memoir by Diane DiPrima) about how in the sixties, one could approach someone sitting on a park bench and immediately engage a random person in a conversation about stuff that was relevant to one's self.

Again, I don't mean or esp. want to beat up on internet culture, but I think that in previous generations an environment existed in which to nurture the self than is the case in this post-internet/cellphone/whathaveyou world. If we were all hanging out in the seventies eating hot dogs and playing pinball in some cafe without texting friends every few minutes I can't help but feel that would be a better scenario, in terms of personal "happiness", which, speaking of bullshit concepts is just gonna lead into "ouch" territory. But, I think at least a couple of words here make some sense. I dunno.

Again, I don't mean or esp. want to beat up on internet culture, but I think that in previous generations a better environment existed in which to nurture the self than is the case in this post-internet/cellphone/whathaveyou world.

^^
attempt at correcting unparseable sentence

/b/ on 4chan seems to represent the extremity that our society is moving towards - senseless regard for violence/sex/kindness etc. The epitome of being an 'anonymous' petty bitch that you always wanted to be....

The whole 'manly' persona that many strive to be has in turn influenced people to be senseless, arrogant, and apathetic. But are they/we really this way? Just like most dudes attempting to be hunky men, it's pretty much surface value only.

What does that say about everything? It's a facade. People are fakers. And the wrong idea of what a man should be is turning the world into a piece of crap.

that's when we get to zone out and think, that routine like that isn't harmful at all.

i've been hassled by friends/partners for having a very set routine in many parts of my life, but that's because i don't have to think at all when carrying out these routine tasks & so this is where i get heaps of my thinking done. if i have to think about what i might wear to work or eat for breakfast or make for lunch, that's time spent thinking about pointless shit when i could be thinking about something entirely worthwhile, or at least writing a tune in my head

nothing really to do with the thread but whatever

If you have GAD, you are stuck with it forever. I have it and it blows. In fact, the best thing is to not talk about it because it might be contagious.. mindsets can be contagious.

I agree w/you that mindsets can be contagious, sure. But some DSM-IV diagnosis is not a life curse. I mean, I respect contemporary psychiatry at its best, but, c'mon. Granted, I am random internet posting guy, so take that with the proverbial grain(s) of salt.

The whole 'manly' persona that many strive to be has in turn influenced people to be senseless, arrogant, and apathetic. But are they/we really this way? Just like most dudes attempting to be hunky men, it's pretty much surface value only.

What does that say about everything? It's a facade. People are fakers. And the wrong idea of what a man should be is turning the world into a piece of crap.

Yeah, people are full of shit, but, it's kinda been that way forever, unless I'm gravely mistaken. Maybe reading the "On Bullshit" book that Tombot cited upthread would be worthwhile.

Also, if you are projecting stuff you read on a 4chan msg board and projecting it onto the world, well...y'know how people annoyingly say "do the math"? I would say, go out and experiment and see how many people are really that jerky. I know that the world has more than its share of horrible people, but...

Also, if you are projecting reading stuff you read on a 4chan msg board and projecting it onto the world, well

ah, cannot type. Bottom line, think and observe for yourself. But don't draw conclusions from internet msg boards. Granted, I am guilty of same based on my above posts, but seriously...

Also, if you are projecting reading stuff you read on a 4chan msg board and projecting it onto the world, well

reads even worse. okay. cpt. lorax, to thine own self be true. yea

this board needs a "preview" function.

Yah thank god most of the world's citizens are not like 4chan boarders! And the ones that are may not be that way IRL. Internet is weird.

Actually the very way I act on this board is 'being myself' fwiw. I'm naturally comfortable and uncomfortable with certain things. I think people have an inborn personality, though of course people change over time. I hate the nature v nurture debate. Be esxcellent to one another and you'll be your bitchenest self. I think that is all I can sya.

There is a very funny scene in Spy Kids 3-D about this, actually! With an Elijah Wood cameo, no less.

I would say, go out and experiment and see how many people are really that jerky.
maybe they just think more jerky.

Yeah, people are full of shit, but, it's kinda been that way forever, unless I'm gravely mistaken.
The internet has contributed to the rise of people being full of shit. I beleieve there are more a$$holes now than before.

And that thing about DSM-IV diagnosis: You are right. It's not terrible. You can learn to have less anxiety and stuff.

Also, I was just using 4chan as an example of people not being them self, but at the same time becoming their fake identity. And how 4chan and l33t people in forums have assumed 'the most awesome identity'.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One last thing. What is this thread about again?

I enjoy the nature vs. nurture debate because that's where I can bitch about the world for shattering my innocence. But that is for another topic all together.

One last thing. What is this thread about again?

My intention was to get people talking about when people say "just be yourself!"...and how that raises all manner of questions about our perceived identities and so forth. Or something.

of course nobody has any option except to be themselves, so in one sense, you shouldn't worry about it,...

Or more succinctly, why would the above quote present a problem. Because, to me, it does.

be yourself until it annoys the people you enjoy hanging out with. at that stage, tone it down a little.

i'm big on being yourself on the internet

you should try fucking yourself

you would never say that to me in person

He might if he's 'being himself'.

Maybe beneath a thin veneer of charm, humour and kookiness, Ken C's a 'go fuck yourself' type person?

these internet hardmen are timid pussycats in the real world, every time

And the timid pussycats are timid pussycats. Conclusion: real hardmen don't use the internet.

give your free will a chance
you've got to want to succeed

You have this self image of yourself, that you think is "you" but is more likely to be what you want others to think of as "you", when you think you're being yourself you're acting according to this self image which may or may not be you. The only people who can really be themselves are humble people who attach no worth to themselves.

No actually I tried that and you kind of turn into a slip of nothing.

Or I did anyway.

I don't think all the mushrooms helped.

just because (as the poststructuralists tell us) the "self" and personal identity are just constructs doesn't mean on the other hand that they don't exist!!

scratch "just" from that sentence

I concur.

also i think our language is pretty much entirely suited to talk about "the self"--i mean i think its arguable that the concept of "the self" arises from our linguistic structures--but i might be misunderstanding what tom is saying

xpost
Wow, is that from a MR&R letter?

-- dell, Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:47 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

Milemarker lyrics but I actually think that it may have been cribbed from MR&R.

Sometimes b sharp
Never b flat
Always b natural

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/6/63/300px-Mrb5.jpg

Is that...MISTER B NATURAL?

I'm happier when I forget my sense of self - isn't that what escapism, travel, drugs etc. are for?

Hahaha actually drugs make me introspect to a terrifying degree and then I flip out at "THIS? THIS is what I am made of?" Which is why I quit doing drugs.

You mean pot right?

pot, mushrooms, 2ci

And the SHERM!

(not really)

what's 2ci like?

Well, actually, it is always fun and never bad. I quit it because the supply kind of run out. Everything is pretty rainbow halos, everything is fun and lovely. The colors!

Everything seems like a splendid and fun epiphany! Like mushrooms sort of but without any of the bad or bad flavor.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vl1UvbGkQAs

Hahaha actually drugs make me introspect to a terrifying degree and then I flip out

omg i thought that was just me! even ecstacy (although at that point maybe it was just a self-fulfilling prophecy).

2ci *is* really awesome. I wish I could get it again. Last time I did it I ended up drawing mystical symbols in gold spraypaint underneath a giant concrete highway pylon by a beautiful river.

2CI is like acid without the harsh Gibby Haynes "edge".

A nice accompaniment to hiking, bicycling, or watching Fantastic Planet.

I used to bike all night along a river on it. Was always afraid I would hit a deer

Haha I did that too but was afraid I'd hit a drunker intertuber who had docked for a while.

"Being natural is simply a pose, and the most irritating pose I know." Wilde

Abbott, you've never seen a real northeast fall (till you've seen it on acid) have you?

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=genesse%20valley%20park&w=all
http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&w=all&q=+mount+hope+cemetery+rochester&m=text

Cue up recording. Begin play:

Whether I'm right,
Or whether I'm wrong,
Whether I fit this crazy world,
or never belong

I've got to be meeeeeeeeeee.
I've got to be meeeeeeeeeee.
What else can I be but what I am?

i'm feeling supersonic
give me gin and tonic