The Decline of Reliable Quality?

You sure you haven't got moths in your wardrobe, with all these holes?

Sweaters were actually different years and happened in two different apartments

this is the end of "mend and make do". ie consumers have no interest in repairing or generally looking after the goods they buy, and therefore theres no point in manufacturers paying the costs involved in making stuff resilient. Resulting in cheap stuff that breaks easily.

(is one spin on it - those who know their economic theory better than me will have better explanations :-)

Isn't this just a sign of growing old?

yeah what's the deal with 'hard drives'? they last about three fucking minutes these days before they start making horrific noises and whirring themselves to death.

i haven't found that myself, yet.

am interested in the decline of quality of experience issue too tho. haven't really been able to formulate and contain it yet but could include everything from 'paying for low bitrates' to 'more standing room on buses'.

Can't find a folding umbrella in New York that'll last a month.

The same thing is happening in popular art, and people pretend it's not (ie, crack smokers who think Daniel Day-Lewis' performance in There Will Be Milkshake is THE GREATEST EVER! ACTING!).

Is it that consumers aren't willing to repair things so it's not worth the time, or is it that planned obsolescence is the companies' evil plan and "new" is marketed as better than "fixed"? Maybe both - I can't help thinking people prefer to repair things, when they know how, but there's a lot we don't know how to do. It's no problem to sew buttons back onto a coat, fix a split seam, etc, but I certainly couldn't fix anything electronic.

xpost - yes I hate that about umbrellas! I think folding umbrellas are just too small and have too many joints to survive a breeze, they're practically disposable, but when even a full size umbrella breaks in the wind it just seems hopeless.

There's that whole "This will cost xxx to repair so you might as well just buy a new one" thing.

Is it that surprising that drop in price and decline in quality are going hand in hand? There is still quality stuff out there, that lasts - but you have to pay for it. Twas ever thus.

inbuilt obsolescence is a necessary component of capitalism

Let's not forget all the stuff that was totally shit in the past, stuff that's better and more reliable now

That's true, ledge, but I also think there's this kind of brand-whoring going on where people pay for the status of a brand instead of the quality it once was supposed to represent, so that even somewhat expensive items are not necessarily much better in quality.

Yeah I daresay that's true. Damn label whores.

http://www.strategy-business.com/press/enewsarticle/enews042805
first google result I got.

Is product quality getting worse? It’s better than it was 30 years ago, by far — but it has been slipping backward ever since, say, 1993 (which happened to be the year that the preeminent quality advocate of American and Japanese business circles, W. Edwards Deming, passed away). The best empirical evidence of decline comes from the annual American Customer Satisfaction Index (ACSI), which is based on customer surveys and cosponsored by American Society for Quality and the University of Michigan. ACSI ratings of manufactured goods have basically held steady over time, but exceptional companies (notably Dell and Apple, with satisfaction increases of 9.7 percent since 1997 and 5.2 percent since 1994, respectively) skew the results. Other big-name companies show deterioration, including those that have invested millions of dollars in associating their brands with reliability and quality: Hewlett-Packard has dropped 9 percent in customer satisfaction since 1994, and several appliance manufacturers are down more than 4.5 percent. Even Six Sigma mainstay GE has slipped 2.5 percent. (A full table of this company data can be found at www.theacsi.org.)

which I guess is largely due to overseas manufacturing

depending on the industry, overseas* manufacturing is superior to American manufacturing.

*be careful how you phrase this.

2) Electronics have the highest failure rate of any consumer goods.

Same article:

As in the 1970s, this strategy poses serious dangers — from the erosion of well-established brands to the ultimate financial failure of companies. But it may be harder now to reverse the tide, because several trends in manufacturing and marketing subtly reinforce one another. Instead of facing competition from high-quality Japanese manufacturers, companies in industrialized countries face tough competition from low-wage countries and high price-cutting pressure from global retailers. Even when producers do promote quality, far fewer consumers seem to care. In this environment, many firms now seem to perceive the production of inferior products as an effective bottom-line strategy. But giving in to this increasingly irresistible temptation can put a company’s future market share and profits at risk.

The seams on a pair of Levis come apart in four different places within a year. Granted I probably wear them four times a week, but they're not tight on me.

you wear a piece of clothing 200 times in one year and you think that a seam coming apart is bad? get a needle and thread and repair the garment yourself!

Part of the reason for this serious dip in quality among American manufacturers lies in where they offshore factory operations and purchase components and parts. Chinese and other low-cost manufacturers have shown that you don’t have to offer quality to compete if you can slash prices enough. “I see no evidence of the managers and workers at these facilities having the slightest concept of quality,” says John Dowd, an American quality expert who has visited dozens of Chinese factories. “They will comply with customer requirements when they are monitored closely, but left alone, it’s strictly ‘Get it out the door.’”

I'm not talking about Hondas here.

xpost the denim itself also wore out on one spot on the inside of the leg.

Are you sweaty?

um, no.

New "supercomputers" are garbage. (Not to mention that clusters don't deserve that title.)

I also recently had a plastic part of a Canon scanner break on me within a few days of use. Basically because the parts were shoddy to begin with, a door on the scanner didn't hold shut, causing the part to fall out and then snap inside my bag (the scanner is portable and I bring it around for work).

Do you have, um, poor urinary aim and/or bladder control?

Seam wear is due to either poor-construction or stress.

But woven denim doesn't just "wear out" itself, it usually either abrades via stress or salts and acids in your skin's oil/sweat or in some cases urine.

The fact that you are having so many issues with various types clothing is interesting (socks, sweaters, jeans).

I'm not sure what you expect from a pair of jeans that you wear 200x a year, but I have quite a few vintage denim pieces (including levi's) from the 1940s/1950s that if I wore every day would suffer seam wear and other critical issues. I don't think a decline in quality is the issue here.

I guess I could have acidic sweat/skin oil. Doesn't seem like that would explain sweater holes though. Perhaps I'm just generally hard on my clothing.

I also notice a lot of low-to-mid-range denim does not feel the way I remember denim feeling when I was younger. Do you know anything about this as you seem to be a big denim guy?

I wonder...my experience with appliances you can fix and fix and fix forever was that they are/were so HEAVY and massive to begin with -- I'm not sure you can make things that "last" in the same way that a piece of cast steel/iron does if you want them to be "modern"-looking or convenient or portable or anything like that.

My Kenmore sewing machine that's older than I am: weighs a ton. It comes in a carrying case but that's a polite fiction designed to send you to the chiropractor.

My parents' old Hoover vacuum that my dad fixed again and again with parts from the junkyard: could barely be carried up the stairs, it was so heavy, and was too massively wide and tall to get into corners or under smaller furniture.

KitchenAid mixers: I dunno about today, but my mom's old one is basically an anchor masquerading as a kitchen appliance.

And hard drives? Dudes that's like building a boeing that can fly one foot above the ground and count the blades of grass as it passes. I'm amazed they work at all.

I complain about clothing, actually, but then we're buying our shit at H&M and Old Navy for $12 an item, what did you THINK was going to happen? Jeans maybe a different story cos I just bought a pair of $70-something Levi's before Christmas and if they were falling apart I might get upset.

If it seems like clothing and furniture and other collectible items "used to" be made better or heavier or something, please consider that there's also natural selection at work, ie the badly made stuff has ALREADY WORN OUT and been thrown away, so all the gets handed down from Grandpa/bought for $80 at Buffalo Exchange are the London Fogs and the Heywood-Wakefields.

If I mention my 15-year-old umbrella, I'll jinx it, won't I?

Wing In Ground effect vehicles rule.

I complain about clothing, actually, but then we're buying our shit at H&M and Old Navy for $12 an item, what did you THINK was going to happen?

Weirdly enough the clothing that lasts the longest for me is all of the cheapo items I have bought at Target.

I can only speak to levi's 501/505/517/Trucker Jacket denim as those are probably the only models still around from when you were a kid.

For North American markets, the denim that levi's uses for the above models still consists mostly of long staple pima cotton from Texas, blended with other cottons.

If you wore shrink to fit 501s as a kid, than you are probably used to a raw denim with a more rough "hand". Or maybe it is the feel of the advances in open-end yarn construction technology compared to the old way of ringspun (or double ringspun) yarn used to weave denim. Or maybe it's projectile loom weave versus the old way imperfect weave of vintage Draper shuttle looms. It's hard to say.

But let's not be naive, low-end denim is made as cheaply as possible as unlike other industries, apparel has actually suffered relative deflation compared to other consumer goods over the past 20 years. It is more than likely made from the lowest grade cotton available using low-skilled laborers with an incentive geared towards yield rather than quality.

To replicate a pair of pre-1970s levi's 501s (1970s MSRP $19.99) profitably would command a retail price of over $100. To utilize selvage Cone denim (up until 1983) would put you close to $200. But in a day when you can buy jeans for $8 at a mass market retailer, those prices seems absurd to the average consumer.

inbuilt obsolescence is a necessary component of capitalism

-- laxalt, Tuesday, February 5, 2008 3:31 PM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

not really "necessary", no; humans will always find new needs, or new ways of trying to meet old needs. on the other hand, inbuilt obsolescence is a necessary component of, well, life.

but goddamn it if phones don't pack up fast these days.

jesus, shasta. that is some serious denim science you just dropped.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Roughness is what I remember especially. The cheaper denim of today feels very smooth.

and also WAU

http://www.xyhd.tv/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/image9.png

there is no reason a kettle shouldn't last a lifetime

It's kind of true across the apparel market: my favorite names in second-hand dress clothes are Pendleton and a few others from the mid-century...because I know the construction and materials will be very good for off-the-rack women's-wear. HOWEVER new Pendleton wool suit jackets are at least a couple hundred dollars and they're even less structured than the mid-century ones (partly because our tastes in tailoring have changed).

xp: I have my grandmother's copper kettle.

the kettlemakers union may disagree with you there.

xpost

Mine didn't because I accidentally left the burner on for four hours, leaving it with a charreld hole in the bottom.

the kettlemakers union may disagree with you there.

They're not the powerful force for good they once were :(

Hurting, my jeans die quick, too, always wearing out in just the same places. It used to distress me. "Am I walking wrong or something?" But some last longer than others. This last pair: a good 2.5 years. R.I.P.

the kettlemakers union may disagree with you there

well, other than the needs of inbuilt obosolescence

I think Hurting is correct about the general retreat from high quality merchandise, regardless of brand. My theory as to why this is so is simple enough. It's that the quality of an item is nowhere nearly so obvious as its price. Customers generally act on clear and obvious feedback, either appearance or price or both. Quality, being generally inobvious in most items on sale, has a hard time competing.

One byproduct of this fact is that most brands known for quality have been lowering their quality in order to lower their price, so they can compete against the cutrate kock-offs. In many cases, the management will choose to lower their quality more than their price, and then charge a premium price based on a reputation for quality they no longer merit. This inflates their profits until the customer gets wise, which might take a decade or more.

This dynamic is far less true for anything where quality can be seen, tasted, felt or otherwise verified before the item is purchased.

But you can tell with clothing! I spend most of my time in a store getting mad that all the shirts are made from fabric that will start pilling up after the third wear. (I am particular.)

kock-offs

I see I have qualified myself for America's Funniest Home Typos. I am deeply ashamed.

Clothing is all over the map, since fashion plays so large a part. Also, I am pretty sure that if you found a clothing maker whose merchandise was made from excellent quality cloth and showed great design and workmanship, you'd be put off by the price.

All the old stuff that was badly made has since fallen apart and been thrown away. All the well made stuff is still around, so we say "Ohhhh...look at the craftmanship, don't get that now!"

Knowing how to shop is a dying art. The internet is a good friend, though -- those $100 and $200 pants and shirts can get a whole lot cheaper if you know where to look.

Does EVERYone have me on killfile? Or does no one actually read threads?

A little from Column A, a little from Column B....

Anyone seen Laurel? Perhaps she has something to say about this?

in a day when you can buy jeans for $8 at a mass market retailer, those prices seems absurd to the average consumer.

yeah, see, i think that's a problem, too. How's the saying go about "better to have one good piece than a lot of crap"? Why not pay a good chunk of change for something that fits properly, is well made, and will last for years?

Does EVERYone have me on killfile? Or does no one actually read threads?
I think they are using my patented virtual killfile, Laurel, I don't read the thread, I just start posting.

I think maybe I learned this from Nick A, but don't tell him.

And hard drives?

Hard drives are doing quite well in terms of overall reliability. - warranty periods have increased from 90 days/1 year to 5 years and assuming that you aren't dropping it or hitting it with an axe, you're OK.

Technological planned obsolescence is much more of a problem - but that's a problem with capitalism.

I had a gift certificate at the Gap. I found a pair of pants there which turned out to be $60 (wtf? I am used to getting quality pants for like $25 on sale at dept. stores) Anyhow, within a month, the stitching was coming all undone in various places...within a couple more months, there were tiny holes here and there. Usually I can make stuff last forever.

The Gap...

...sucks. And Old Navy (except for stuff like socks and underwear) and so does Banana Republic.

I applaud the historical innovations which brought about tailored clothing, but every so often I think it would be better to go back to toga times.

That seems...chilly. Maybe we could all just eat a few fewer pies, instead.

"Less pie, more pants" would not be a winning political platform, I'm afraid.

man, banana republic does suck but i still unfortunately end up buying most of my work clothes there out of laziness and cheapness. they used to not suck as much. and the outlets used to be better. now the outlets have a crappier line made specifically for them.

i have a couple of skirts from there i've had over 10 years that are still in good shape. but stuff i bought this fall is already starting to wear out.

Why not go to Ross or one of those kinds of places? I usually have good luck finding stuff there...but, then, I'm a guy and I figure that makes buying clothing a million times easier.

i don't know what that is??

Chinese slave labor goods are notorious for poor quality control. It's across the board. The US companies that have let their supply and manufacturing chains go to China have seen some debacles, most notably in consumables in 2007. Pet food, toothpaste, foods, toys. The Chinese have no problem with using substandard additives. Sometimes that means poisons.

You can get guitars in boxes at BestBuy for a bit over one hundred dollars. They're crap and they're part of the Chinese slave labor export chain in partnership with Amrican brands like Gibson and Fender.

There was a big book on Fender amps published in December called "The Soul of Tone" which is a company history and it discusses some of these trends.

Interestingly, the company's first quality problems surfaced when it was bought up by CBS. Problems start slipping in which, after some accumulation, caused deterioration in tone of some of the company's flagship designs. CBS also introduced a line of solid state amplifiers in the early Seventies which were not well designed. In fact, the sucked. You can't find them anymore.

These things contributed to a larger impression that Fender had slipped badly in the Seventies. It took them a long time to efface that rep.

Interestingly, now Fender has low end Chinese slave labor made amps because the industry more or less forces them to compete in that area. The designers of the company say they'd rather just make the quality amps old Fender was known for. But they have to make price point products which compete in the stores with lesser companies or see that they have fewer of their high end pieces in the same stores.

At least that's how they describe it. So they move their manufacturing of low end amps around in the slave labor countries.

"Ross Dress For Less
In-season, name-brand apparel, accessories and footwear for the entire family"!

http://www.rossstores.com/

it's similar to "T.J. Maxx"

Or TJ Maxx, or Sym's, or Filene's Basement, or Cent 21, or anywhere during good sales, and so on. Then again some of these places are a pain in the ass.

But I mean, yeah, welcome to my life!

I think this situation was already decried by none other than Andy Warhol, in The Philosophy Of Andy Warhol From A to B.

The Gap really is poor quality, especially for the price.

but, then, I'm a guy and I figure that makes buying clothing a million times easier.

I think this is wrong, actually. JC Penney's/Target/etc. stock low-priced fashionable (or semi-fashionable) clothes for women. The same stores are pretty much a dead zone for guys unless you're 15 or 55.

ROSS IS AWES

I saw a guy on the subway with a hanging suit bag that said "Educated Consumer". It took me a while to figure out what it meant, and that he got it from Syms.

One of my ex-roommates once used Sharpies and White-Out to change a Filene's bag from "I GOT A BARGAIN AT FILENE'S BASEMENT" to "I GOT A HARD-ON AT FILENE'S BASEMENT" and hung it on our other roommate's door. It was pretty awesome.

I think this is wrong, actually. JC Penney's/Target/etc. stock low-priced fashionable (or semi-fashionable) clothes for women. The same stores are pretty much a dead zone for guys unless you're 15 or 55.

I guess I meant fitting-wise, primarily. Like, for guys, it comes down to waist + length for most pants purchases, and similar easy choices for shirts. Women's sizing schemes seem just bizarre and cruel.

http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/cartoon_1_14_08.jpg

"I GOT A HARD-ON AT FILENE'S BASEMENT"

Come on Filene?

Ugh - this thread was my night last night - slipped on a pair of banana republic (how appropriate a name, huh?) jeans I had worn once - they still looked and fit fine when getting dressed in front of the mirror - I come back home from the movies and there's a hole in the thigh (way lower than the pocket - it wasn't from anything in pockets), that just appeared. I remember no snags or odd pulling from any foreign or local object - just a hole that suddenly appeared. I ranted on foreign crap quality goods for an hour - boy I was mad!

BR used to make great clothes quality-wise but no longer.

I was originally going to revive this thread because every single kind of mechanical pencil I have bought since law school has failed on me within a week or two, except for the pentel drafting pencil I paid five dollars for. The $5 pencil is definitely better than five $1 pencils

A banal subject, I know, but it got me thinking in a larger way about the hidden cost of cheap stuff, i.e. how you wind up paying more in the long run when you buy the less expensive products.

woven denim doesn't just "wear out" itself, it usually either abrades via stress or salts and acids in your skin's oil/sweat

HOLY FUCKING SHIT MYSTERY SOLVED

Hurting I would be HEARTBROKEN if my mechanical pencil broke so quickly.

This is sincere!

The lament of a law student.

I love my pentel though. The feel of the hard molded plastic, the grip, the color, the way the metal thingy on the tip supports the lead better so I can write at steeper angles.