Cesar Milan Classic o' Dud

I vote Genius. Also wd like to point out that one of those critical articles you link to is written by someone who seems to think it's a good idea to treat dogs with Prozac...which I am never, ever going to get behind.

I think that's an easier view to get behind than Milan's nonsense about oh let's say women or wolves.

Oh well the women thing I chalk up to being Latin, and the wolves...well, I grew up with collies. Maybe some other dogs are less wolfish? His philosophy re dogs works for me!

Did you actually read the article, Laurel? Because you seem awfully opposed to a rather common-sensed response to a chemical imbalance and pretty blase about some rather grotesque sexism and pretty shocking ignorance of pack mentality.

So half strangling, kicking, poking and generally terrifying your dogs is a philosophy you get behind? Good to know.

this guys is a fucking genius - i dog whispered my friends dog for a week and when she came back she was all omg hes so much better behaved whatd you do? and now every time he sees me he comes and rolls over at my feet

the fact that "professional dog people" hate him is a good sign - those motherfuckers are karaaaazy

also i just find him fascinating - the way he holds himself and relates to people - dudes got some juice

did anyone see the episode where he gets pissed at the lady for favoring her little poofy dog over her son - classic!

i think that he personally is very good with dogs, like innately so. that's really the key to his success. i've become pretty disturbed by the idea of people actually following his methods based on watching the show. there's a huge danger of animals being hurt by overeager armchair dog whisperers who now have the professional go-ahead to use physical force to dominate their pets. i was upset by one of the last episodes i saw, in which he instructed an owner to put the dog on a treadmill. can you say fatal accident waiting to happen?

So half strangling, kicking, poking and generally terrifying your dogs is a philosophy you get behind? Good to know.

^^^total bullshit misrepresentation

Not really.

out of those things poking the only one ive ever seen on the show

I did actually read both of yr links, Alex, but I guess we just see things differently. Also both are obv very critical and so of course they're magnifying the "violent" potential in all of CM's actions.

Also I have like a mental block that switches on whenever people start attributing human motivations to their pets, so maybe I err on the side of what seems like harshness to some. Anecdotal blah blah but all the dogs I've ever known who were pampered have been horrifyingly willful and have expected to call the shots all the time, and working dogs who are "rewarded" with approval instead of with treats/food and high voices and a highly excited state seem the most even-keeled of all.

You've never seen a scared uncomfortable helpless dog on his show?

Also used to have a roommate who would greet all visiting dogs with an attempt to wind them up as much as possible because it was "fun" and obviously the dogs "enjoyed" being raised to a totally hyper and highly stimulated state...meanwhile the dogs are raising hell in the house and getting more and more frantic/out of control. I mean people are crazy all around.

did anyone see the episode where he gets pissed at the lady for favoring her little poofy dog over her son - classic!

I really felt for those kids, because she seemed to laugh off their getting bit by her loathsome purse dog.

I agree with Lauren -- I think he personally is very good with dogs, but I cringe thinking about some goofus applying his techniques.

laurel otm

you've never seen him do the sideways kick thing? it's one of his stock corrections. you're supposed to just do it like a tap, but it's the kind of thing that's easy to misjudge in terms of force. plus i can see people getting a bit carried away with it.

xpost to jho

you do have to be paying attention (and obv hes waaay tuned into dogs) but his techniques are totally doable

I'm not argueing that the people who Cesar is "helping" are treating their dogs well (they aren't) or that Cesar doesn't occasionally give good advice (he does.) But I think that it's a far cry from attributing human motivations to say that his a lot methods are far from humane and that the dogs really don't actually like being treated like this.

yah ive seen that but every sort of touching w/yr foot isnt kick - just like when you use your hands its not alway a punch

alex do you have any sort of basis to yr argument that dogs dont like being teated like this?

cause it seems just the opposite from my experince

I'm not sure why dogs should always "like" being made to mind, heel, behave, etc at their owner's behest? We don't expect such controlled behavior from our other "domesticated" animals like horses, etc, who we acknowledge could do a lot of damage if unsupervised or if any lapse of judgment was made by the handler...but we bring dogs into our houses and raise them with/like our children. I think maintaining human authority is vital for safety all around.

thing is dogs to seem to like being told what to do

That said I am totally hearing Lauren about people without the basic skills trying out some of this stuff their dogs. I was once a party guest of someone who let an ex-military asshole friend bully their dog as if some kind of violent strength of will was all they needed. Totally RONG. What CM does is so far from that.

except if it involves a treadmill. that was a genuinely terrified animal. quiet, but terrified.

eh there was an episode where a great dane was terrified of shiny floors - he got over it

eh i don't think the two are equivalent.

Well, if you want to humanize dogs, you can start here: lots of people have irrational fears of things, leftover from childhood or something not clearly remembered/understood...and we sort of expect them to get help and get over it. That can mean a lot of work and struggle, I presume (makes sense) but is part of growing up, developing self, living better.

For the sake of argument let's assume dogs have the same ability to remember scary or painful things and develop phobias of them...but don't have the self-consciousness to realize that they will be happier and MORE FUNCTIONAL if those phobias are resolved. So it's up to their owners to take the initiative and lead the dogs through the thing, in whatever way. Doesn't mean the dogs are going to or have to "like" it, no more than people afraid of drowning "like" putting their heads underwater in the pool...?

all i'm saying is that i think tying an animal on a moving treadmill is a bad idea.

well part of his whole reading of dogs is that they have v flexible minds and if offered popper leadership will just move on from all sorts of neurosis - so maybe one day the dog is afraid of the treadmill or the floor - and the next day hes psyched to go on the treadmill

i mean a treadmill isnt a v difficult thing for a dog to understand and master

I find the use of treadmills kind of...weird? He's been doing it for ages, have seen lots of eps to that effect. I can see how it could be dangerous, don't think you could possib defend it without CONSTANT supervision, at the very least. And yeah it could suggest to people who aren't going to be as careful that they can just put their dogs on treadmill INSTEAD of walking them? That wd mean they are clearly not paying attention to anything else on the show, though.

Yes but statistics have shown that people are stupid. (I totally agree with you on everything you're saying regarding how dogs need to be treated.)

its kinda funny crazy people buy breeds like huskies or whatever that need so much exercise that they cant possibly manage it themselves so they have to resort to putting their dog on a treadmill

i find the use of treadmills very weird. cesar seems to think that it's good for them to go on one to combat basically every kind of bad behavior. i don't disagree with the idea that you need to lead dogs through neurosis/fears, but this doesn't have anything to do with dealing with specific phobias and i can easily see some idiot strangling their pet by leashing it to one in lieu of walking it.

id say the bigger obstacle than stupidity to people understanding and treating their dogs in a sane manner is that they got them so that they could treat them like humans - that was the whole point in the first place

the recent surge in popularity of australian shepherds is particularly disheartening.

fear of treadmills xp

I think the general idea is that a dog who's sufficiently exercised/tired will take every kind of training more readily and not be so neurotic. Which seems perfectly reasonable. Attaining that state through tying them to a treadmill does seem awfully WEIRD and I wonder why he uses it. The whole rollerblade or bike thing where you take the dog with you makes so much more sense AND is good for both of you.

jho I think you are v v v onto something about buying the animals for express purposes of treating like people. And then wondering why they don't love you back and behave perfectly?

i love daddy, tho. cesar is a good advocate for so-called dangerous dogs.

do you know who daddy belongs to...

of course!

http://freshnessmag.com/v4/wp-gallery/aug_06/redman_interview/redman.jpg

REDMAN!!!!

Speaking of treating animals like people and trying to discipline by talking to them a lot in human terms, I have to go pick up keys from the person I'm cat-sitting for.

"Bad girl. Get off that counter. I said to get down. Didn't you hear me? We had a talk about this last week, and I KNOW I told you not to get up here while I'm cooking. Remember? Now get down. I said DOWN."

OMG SHUT UP AND PUSH HER OFF.

"But Daddy helped make his career. Everybody says that. To this day, as much as Daddy did, I haven't received one dime from Cesar, for Daddy's appearance or nothing. Which is cool, and I'm not looking for it. It's just the fact that I know when I chose that dog, even the way he was acting with me. See, he stayed out there, Daddy stayed out there."

<3 <3 <3

http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/images/cat%20feline.jpg

u can treat me like a people if u want - im just gonna do my thing

http://www.marshu.com/images-website/collection-pictures/stories/cesar-millan-and-daddy-dog-whisperer-pit-bull-rapper-redman.jpg
awwww

WOWOWZA SO CUET. Oh Daddy.

xp I <3 <3 this friend so much and she is very practical about almost everything but she def got a cat thinking it would accept her idea of affection and love her back and make her feel better...and that is totes not what has happened. Sigh. ;_;

my roommate is like that.

yah cats are a bit of a crapshoot ranging from dont even think abt touching me to omg can i just sit on you all the time plzzzz <3 <3 <3

i would love to hear what a cat whisper has to say abt this

Well I didn't watch the THEY WENT BACK A YEAR LATER SHOW, but I did I watch the ACTUAL show and the bullshit that was coming out of Milan's mouth didn't match the ACTUAL event as it was occuring. And to be honest, I don't trust your opinion of what no big deal because frankly you seem to be unobservant fuckwit.

lol u mad (and rong)

dont get a dog btw

Are you pretending to be the dog owner whisperer now?

you just seem to have some of those dog/person confusion issue going

Uh huh, yeah you seem to have some total lack of ethics and responsiblity thing going, but hey let's just agree to disagree. I'm sure if our dogs meet they'll just sniff butts and it'll all be fine.

i certainly do not have a dog "fuckwit"

Oh sorry you are just someone who "dog whispers" other people's dogs (reading disclaimers at the beginning of shows so not your bad, is it.) So confusing.

i just dont want a little animal baby - and yah i tried some of his simpler techniques w/my friends dog particularly around walking (w/o even using a choke collar) and they worked great - the dog complained a little at first then seemed happy to just walk w/me soon after - now when i see him he shows me love - not a huuuge accomplishment or anything - sorry if i didnt do right by the tv station legalese

The thing that's freakiest about this thread is that dichotomy that pro-Cesar people seem to be setting up is NO TRAINING AT ALL AND TREATING THEM LIKE HUMAN BEINGS vs. TRAINING THE CESAR WAY which is total nonsense. On one side are the most reputable dog trainers and animal protection organizations in this country and they are basically saying "this is mean" and "there are far nicer ways of achieving better results which don't involve the dog being shut down in this way" and on the other side is this guy who doesn't actually have a whit of training other than living on a farm in Oaxaca or whatever who is saying "no no dominate completely yank yank poke distract". I mean if this guy was giving advice to human beings we would all think he was a crazy self-guru and not take him seriously at all. But hey it's dogs and they ain't human anyway so it's all good.

God almighty Alex calm down maybe? You started this thread, dude, if you were going to vilify anyone who didn't come down on yr side of the fence then you weren't thinking very far ahead?

yah one of todays most popular techniques with "reputable dog trainers and animal protection organizations" is positive reenforcement where if a dog does something you dont like you just ignore it and when it does what you want you reward it. srsrly your not allowed to communicate your dissatisfaction to the dog for fear of hurting its feelings lololol. its too bad ceasar milan hasnt been certified by these people and has only his life experience to fall back on.

in my experience ive seen what he does ive listened to him and then tried it my self and it all made a lot of sense. conversely i dont have a lot of faith in the experts produced by american dog culture.

We went to Kennel Club- and breeder-organized obedience classes for years and let me tell you, most of those dogs "passed" without EVER learning to stay in place while the owner walked off and did something else, and a bunch of the other commands were only followed spottily. Because "obedience training" is not what makes dogs obey. Believing that someone else is the boss of them (someone who deserves to be, who is a good and consistent protector, leader, provider) is what makes dogs obey.

If obedience training with treats and pats and "GOOD BOY, WHO'S A GOOD BOY??" leads to obedience, then congratulations, it worked ON YOUR DOG. But it doesn't work on a lot of them, for many of the reasons that CM lists: dog is distracted, fixated on some other action/object, has too much energy untapped, thinks you and your wishes are less important than its own, is strong-willed, and so on. CM's methods cut through that stuff for dogs who are already problem cases because of their inherent temperments, environments, histories of abuse, or the bad management of humans.

Not trying to sound condescending but have you ever seen dogs interact, Alex? They're pack animals. Their relationships with other dogs/animals are based on that. I see other dogs cause the same responses that Milan does, but I've never once seen it cause long-lasting trauma. Are you concerned about the long-term impact on the dog or do you just feel uncomfortable with the momentary use of force?

“I see other dogs cause the same responses that Milan does, but I've never once seen it cause long-lasting trauma.”

Haha I’m not even going to pretend to ask how you could possibly know this (maybe dogs are whispering to you!)

2nd freaky thing about Cesar (and pro-Cesar folks) is the confusion that somehow dogs = wolves as though the last 14,000 years of canine evolution basically counts for naught. Not to mention the fact that they actually know jack shit about how wolves and packs actually operate (those damn Ph.D fuckers ruining shit with their actual science.)

"Are you concerned about the long-term impact on the dog or do you just feel uncomfortable with the momentary use of force?"

Both. I think there is pretty substantial evidence that flooding and positive punishment are rarely long-term solutions for treating neurotic or aggressive animal behavior. Of course again that evidence is from people with like Ph.Ds and shit so it's easily ignorable.

Haha I’m not even going to pretend to ask how you could possibly know this (maybe dogs are whispering to you!)

My dad was a veterinarian so I spent a lot of time at his clinic. Also have owned dogs in my life. I tried to keep the condescension out of my post; you could do the same.

Here in St. Louis (Escape From New York was shot here so, y'know, it's pretty rough) we have packs of wild dogs in a few of the bigger parks, and regardless of their 14,000 years of domestication they revert pretty quickly. It's definitely more nuanced than dogs = wolves but I think that what Milan does is more nuanced than you're giving him credit for. And it seems to me that it's far more ethical than feeding your dog reprocessed shit and taking it out for a walk once a week, which is what most of the dog owners I know do. I guess if really pressed I'd go the Peter Singer route and just opt out of pets completely.

Also it seems like Milan is more of a proponent of being "calm and assertive" which, incidentally, is the same thing every stupid security training I've been through has said to use on belligerent humans.

But I don't know, I'm not a Ph.D and early exposure lead me to run from the animal sciences screaming. This is purely anecdotal but both parents have degrees from Cornell - my mom in animal sciences and my dad was a DVM - and my mom certainly agrees with his methods and says my dad would as well.

I never come away from the show thinking he 'fixed' the problem dog - like, it's kind of obeying now, but nothing in his training methods (or maybe it's just the amount of time he gets to spend in the home) convinces me that the dog won't just go back to being evil again.

Loved the one w/ the Basset Hound From Hell, though.

I haven't watched this show in a long while but I sure did watch a ton of it when they were running marathons on the weekends last year. Isn't about 95% of what Cesar does training people how to be more assertive and confident around their animals instead of acting with trepidation and pity etc? Whatever, though, watching alex spit and splutter at the very idea that cesar's huge kennel full of well-socialized former fighting pits et al. is the product of anything other than a sociopathic, torturous mean streak on the part of that terrible little man is pretty entertaining

"On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."

that must be why cesar and his family are all missing fingers, right?

some of you may also be interested to know that the methods used to train human beings and animals to be able to function while under extremely high degrees of stress are in fact largely composed of a regular series of aversives applied non-contingently:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/cb/Sept2001/CapeMay.gif

never mind that Ph.Ds don't have much to do with any of it either!

and in fact I would say that anybody who really honestly believes that (controlled-environment) "flooding" and intimidation are invalid, harmful methods of training - a dog, a person, whatever - is kind of a dip, and rather clearly pushing their own agenda which is just as nonsensical and tired as anything a TV dog trainer has to say about women

Cesar = classic. I watched a bunch of episodes over t'giving last year and totally fell in love with his show, even though it's kinda repetitive. My wife got me like 10 DVDs of seasons 1 and 2. I honestly don't think that anything he does is cruel, and the result is pretty much always the greater happiness of the dogs in question. Also, that NYT piece is so incredibly off-base that it's disqualified.

More important, aggression often has underlying medical causes that might not be readily apparent -- hip dysplasia or some other hidden physical ailment that causes the dog to bite out of pain; hereditary forms of sudden rage that require a medical history and genealogy to diagnose; inadequate blood flow to the brain or a congenital brain malformation that produces aggression and can only be uncovered through a medical examination. Veterinary behaviorists, having found that many aggressive dogs suffer from low levels of serotonin, have had success in treating such dogs with fluoxetine (the drug better known as Prozac).

Anyone who watches the show knows that Cesar screens for real injuries, and giving dogs prozac is pure bullshit.

"well-socialized former fighting pits"

Haha yeah the well-socialized former fighting pits that apparently strangers can't make eye contact with or touch. Smashing.

"some of you may also be interested to know that the methods used to train human beings and animals to be able to function while under extremely high degrees of stress are in fact largely composed of a regular series of aversives applied non-contingently"

Wow you sure shut me up. Esp. with the picture.

Haha yeah the well-socialized former fighting pits that apparently strangers can't make eye contact with or touch. Smashing.

have you really honestly watched the show?

I mean it seems pretty clear that several people on this thread are watching one television series about this guy and you're catching some kind of UFC Puppy Bowl

"Once we were inside, I said hello to one of the dogs behind a fence, which prompted Cesar to explain the ground rules: no eye contact, no petting."

http://dir.salon.com/story/ent/feature/2005/02/16/dog_whisperer/index2.html

Yeah and I can read too.

actually by quoting that particular part of the article completely out of context you've rather proven that you can't, at least not in any meaningful fashion

why such an axe to grind on this?

I'm not sure what context that makes more sense in, but whatever.

Anyway I'm done with this thread. I was curious what people thought about him, his show, his methods and I think I got an eyeful. No hard feelings anyone. I really don't you are all heartless sadists or anything (nor do I think Millan--whose name I have been accidently mispelling constantly hah--is either.)

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.html

there's probably some choice material in there you can chop up to make the dude look shitty

ok then!

no one has mentioned that what he repeats over and over again on the show is that the people are the ones that need training not the dogs

its weird that no crazy dog people showed up here - i mean alex doesnt even have a dog?

that gladwell article is flawed for taking the great man approach

I started watching Cesar when I got my dog two years ago. I was completely at a loss, my dog had spent the past few months in a dog run at a vet's office waiting to be adopted, and not really socializing much. She was (still is) a very sweet dog, but didn't know how to behave and had no idea about things like 'running out into the street is bad.' I used his technique of walking with 'confidence' when I walked her, and it really worked. She stayed with me and didn't try to run all over the place. Long walks also kept her happy and tired. For making me less scared that my dog is going to run out into the street, I'm gonna say Classic.

Re eye contact: maybe this is more of that "wolf pack" bullshit that Alex doesn't like, but I've always been taught that direct eye contact is one of the actions dogs can interpret as a challenge. The dogs in CM's kennels are hard cases, seriously dominant and challenging dogs. If they weren't with him, they'd probably all have been put down by now for being a danger to their owners (I'm sure some were perfectly normal people who thought having a dog would be easier than it turned out to be?), or at least that's the subtext I've gotten out of it.

So asking first-time visitors who are strangers to his dogs (and who are visiting because of their inability to regulate THEIR OWN dog's behavior in the first place) to keep their distance from his pack is nothing more than perfectly safety-conscious and courteous behavior. And it spares his dogs from the confusion of people who send poor or mixed signals, too.

Re wolf pack stuff, also, I grew up with a succession of collies and I always thought they might have more still in common with wolves than some other breeds? They were sensitive to atmosphere and behaved in queerly responsible, grown-up ways, ie being protective and seeming to understand a lot, and looking to their people for signals. (Their fighting style is wolfish, too -- ducking and weaving in and out to slash tendons and legs and throats -- you can see it in the puppy play.)

Now my parents have a standard poodle who shows none of those traits, he's just a happy dog to whom nothing seems to matter except whatever temptation is right in front of him! He's got his own set of very clear instincts that're totally different from the collies'. So I can imagine the breeds vary widely. But any gentle, even-tempered dog who was v "domesticated" and eager to please wd be a lot less likely to appear on a show abt problem dogs.

When I'm screwing with my parents' beagle, I stare him down eye to eye. Always gets him excited. I've given that dog some ridiculously bad habits. ("It's cute when he growls, really!")

this friend of mine and her friend were on this show having a problem with the latter's dog, because it kept playing with/biting rocks.

how'd they solve the problem? my dog does this but it seems pretty harmless

basically his conclusion was that the girl was kind of fucking up the dog. i don't remember how it was solved, though.

it was on last night in a re-run, i think it was filmed 2 or 3 years ago.

Oh man, I'm sad I missed the initial part of this thread.

Here is a random thing I have noticed from much, much time spent at the busy local dog run: not attributing any cause/effect direction, but there is like a 75% overlap in the big-dog area between (a) people whose dogs attack other dogs, and (b) people who do Milan-style dog-dominating training stuff

I think I've seen it -- they go for a walk on a dirt road or some kind of rocky path on a hill. The dog is fixated on rocks for some reason. I think Cesar basically goes, "NO. MY rock" and claims the rocks enough times that the dog get a new idea about things, that when his person takes them away, he has to refocus on her and not the thing she took away.

alex in rare form on this thread

yes that's it laurel!

Basically I think the showier stuff this guy does might be useful for dogs with major specific problems, but would be a really bad and counterproductive approach to dealing with a normal dog in general -- especially when there are much more normal ways of communicating basic who's-the-boss stuff to a normal dog. It's too bad that discussion about this guy tends to turn stuff into some kind of black-and-white choice between exerting dominance and some airy version of reward-based 100%-non-negative training; it's perfectly possible (and has sorta been the tradition all along) to train dogs in a way that's generally positive but can still firmly communicate authoritarian Don't Do That messages when it needs to.

i had a dog growing up that used to tear shit up and run away all the time and we took forever learning how to get her right, but eventually she calmed down. later we realized it wasn't calming down as much as it was probably because she was just getting old and lazy.

Haha my dog was trained on rewards but is now kind of a smart-ass about it: every now and then you tell him to do something and he just stands there looking at you like "I know for a fact you don't have any treats on you"

I'm probably the most interested in his use of his own body and posture to "claim" places or things or people away from the dogs. Because standing over something and showing that it's YOURS is something people would consider really impolite -- when we bump into someone, we pull back and say "excuse me" -- but that makes a dog think you're relinquishing the space to them, and then they're responsible for it. I can see how that gets really nerve-wracking and confusing for a dog whose powers are really very limited in a human world.