Is anyone interested in Mamet saying he's now not a brain dead liberal? If so where on ilx are you talking about it?

who did what now?

I'm having trouble getting through this. He doesn't seem like the world's most sophisiticated political thinker. People who start out as "braindead _______" and then undergo "change" usually just fill in the blank with something else.

DAVID MAMET, 61, DISCOVERS WORLD IS IMPERFECT

Whoa, wait a minute! Stop the presses!

Rich White Baby Boomer Becomes Protective of Fortune; Abandons 60s Ideology! Tells less fortunate: "You'll be fine, poor ppl! The government isn't effective anyway. Things have a way of working out! Plus: NPR sux lol".

I don't understand why his discovering the world is imperfect would make him a conservative though. I've never met a liberal who thought people were perfect. I have to admit I didn't read the whole thing, it was kinda rambling.

Same here. His uh.. politics seem really one dimensional.

I enjoyed The Spanish Prisoner when it came out.

This article is more irritating than the Mamet one.

It starts off with the false premise that Liberals are in a stew bout this, then goes onto suggest that he was a poster boy for liberals which I can't believe was ever true, and goes downhill from there.

Sorry, that should be 'liberals'.

In fact, there is one line that will make many of his former political allies jump clean out of their sandals. JFK, he daringly suggests, was just as worthy of our disdain many decades ago as George Bush is today.

Sandals!

"I am hard-pressed to see an instance where the intervention of the government led to much beyond sorrow."

Maybe not perfection, but not even 'much beyond sorrow'?

lol jfk in 'doing some shit his myth glosses over' shocker

I wasn't going to bother with this but I'll just note that my social democratic beliefs are rooted in cynicism and pragmatism. Free-market economics actually strike me as far more utopian and idealistic.

xpost (I probably do agree with him that Democratic presidents have done terrible things too. This doesn't lead me to a pro-Republican conclusion, however.)

yeah, exactly Sundar. Which is part of why I found his piece so confusing.

I guess part of what he's saying is just "Mellow out everyone, we're all just people at the end of the day." Which is fine, but it has nothing to do with being conservative or liberal.

(I'm a bit amazed that a belief in a compromise system involving high taxes and a strong regulatory government can be framed as more idealistic and naive than the idea that left to itself, the invisible hand of a privatized economy will allow 'us, as human being, to just work things out.')

*beings

Wait, when was Mamet not a conservative, again? I've thought of him as a sort of cranky-jerk conservative/libertarian for years now. If he thought that was liberal and has recently shifted rightward, I'll have to remember not to watch Charlie Rose next time he's on.

"I am hard-pressed to see an instance where the intervention of the government led to much beyond sorrow."

G.I. Bill to thread. Student loan program to thread. Public lending libraries to thread. National Park system to thread. FDA to thread.

And Mamet is claiming he isn't brain dead?! Sheesh.

Ronin is still a totally sweet movie tho

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/img012.jpg
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-mamet

I'm with nabisco -- he always seemed like that kind of crank.

Ronin is still a totally sweet movie tho

-- max, Friday, March 14, 2008 12:34 AM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

^^^

i totally rep for 'spartan' too.

any essay that includes the phrase "but I digress" = worthless forever

someone should tell him we were already in Vietnam when Kennedy was elected

I vote House of Games.

All his plays are about flawed individuals. If he was writing about them why didn't he realise the world contained them?

Most of the things he talks about would tend to push me more leftwards if I wasn't already.

i <3 david mamet the artist - as an essayist hes really not worth the trouble.

tedious cynical views often benefit from population w/character and plot.

see also: THE UNIT
<3

any essay that includes the phrase "but I digress" = worthless forever

-- J0hn D., Thursday, March 13, 2008 9:04 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link

BAHAHAHAHAHA I had EXACTLY the same thought when I got to that line. The fact that it was the end of the page almost made me not want to continue.

which kinda always throws me for a loop b/c i like it so much
but really i guess also what sundar said my social democratic beliefs are rooted in cynicism and pragmatism. Free-market economics actually strike me as far more utopian and idealistic.

what i like about mamet is not necessarily him or his views but how his work makes me think/question/stay critical. i mean, isn't this the best kind of artist? fuck likeable and hey fuck personal politics b/c hell, and i certainly like to like people, it isn't what determines if one is a good, solid, thought-provoking artist

xpost

yeah he is not the greatest essayist/journalist that is for sure true

I'm not knocking him as an artist at all

see also HEIST

A lot of American political thought seems to revolve around the idea that you are either a conservative or a liberal and NOTHING ELSE. Very odd. If you're a libertarian or a socialist or anything else outside of that binary you are considered a total crank.

Its good that boomers are now reaching the age of wisdom and will be around for another 20 years or so to tell us what's what about politics.

he's going one way just as the conservatives are going in the opposite direction and suddenly love government..."please come bail us out"
'

Forget that actually...privatize profits socialize losses, no different from any other time

I began reading not only the economics of Thomas Sowell (our greatest contemporary philosopher)

When writers use superlatives like this I assume they are drunk.

When they mention Thomas Sowell approvingly I assume they are not merely drunk, but high.

I wonder if he believes he's being brave here? Like "George Clooney might not return my phone calls anymore" brave.

ad from vv:

http://oascentral.villagevoice.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.villagevoice.com/news/features/L25/1722953262/Middle/TheVoice/vv_Potpartner.com_2008_300/300_250-villagevoice.gif/444e63672b456647346d6b4141483136?x

damn. that didn't work.

"A lot of American political thought seems to revolve around the idea that you are either a conservative or a liberal and NOTHING ELSE. Very odd. If you're a libertarian or a socialist or anything else outside of that binary you are considered a total crank."

funny how he mentions mailer at the beginning of his piece who ran for mayor of nyc as a 'left-conservative'!

Why can't he just say "I agree with a bit of this, a bit of that, this makes sense, this doesn't..." Rather than "USA #1 now, cuz hippies pissed me off."

I began reading not only the economics of Thomas Sowell (our greatest contemporary philosopher)

When writers use superlatives like this I assume they are drunk.

And he said the same thing about Paul Johnson which is totally wtf.

I wasn't going to bother with this but I'll just note that my social democratic beliefs are rooted in cynicism and pragmatism. Free-market economics actually strike me as far more utopian and idealistic.

otm.

can someone track down the origin of the idea that liberals think "people are good at heart", and when you find it, please kill it? it will probably be having a beer with "liberals love government."

i don't know why it's so hard to understand that basically liberals distrust power and see the balance of powers -- between government and business, individuals and the state, local governments and federal governments, judiciary and legislature, etc etc -- as the best option for keeping anyone from having too much of it.

and yeah, milt friedmanesque magic-marketplace thinking is way more utopian and detached from real-world experience than the idea that, say, left to their own devices chemical companies will dump waste in the river.

Are there any lefties under the age of 45 who idolize JFK? If he hadn't been assassinated wouldn't Mamet's generation have been chanting "Hey Hey JFK how many kids did you kill today" in 1967?

Interesting question. Not answerable. LBJ absolutely knew that Vietnam was a stupid, pointless, bloody, and expensive exercise in futility by 1966, but according to reports of what he said at the time, he chose to keep escalating instead of withdrawing because he refused be red-baited by John Birch types in the Congress for 'losing Vietnam'.

Given what he'd seen in the 1950s, this was a pretty deeply ingrained political fear, one he couldn't override by listening to his own reasonable doubts.

Whether JFK would have committed the same sort of ritual sacrifice of young men for crass political CYA purposes is an open question. Chances are good he was less deeply scarred by McCarthyism and would have pulled the plug much sooner. JFK's was counter-scarred by the Bay of Pigs, so I think this is a reasonable surmise.

thomas sowlol

Dave is just a big Likudite

it's funny, i took a course on the slave trade from a ghanian professor and he was pretty clear about how classical and islamic slavery worked, but by the end of it, he wasn't all about american blacks needing to stfu. i wonder what was wrong with him, looking back on it.

maybe he should read more of our greatest contemporary philosopher

i always wondered how many right wing douchebags and libertarian squirrel police types would be on ILE if it wasnt for ILM being right next to it, since most of them seem to find it because theyre really into like pulp or butthole surfers or the smiths or something

or duran duran, in the case of dee the lurker

dee the lurker, our second-greatest contemporary philosopher

if you've only read her random thoughts and ilx posts you really cant talk about her writing... check for her 450-page slash fiction novel where duran duran meet harry potter

"theyre really into like pulp or butthole surfers or the smiths or something"

alright youve crossed a line man 2/3 of those are awesome

just don't admit which one isn't.

"theyre really into like pulp or butthole surfers or the smiths or something"

alright youve crossed a line man 2/3 of those are awesome

-- deeznuts, Sunday, 16 March 2008 21:04 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Yeah, it's hard to see where anyone would find right-wing political views in The Smiths or Pulp's lyrics.

"William, Slavery Was Really Nothing"

no

the smiths, no, but im not sure where pulps right-wing viewpoints wouldnt come out of pretty drastic misreadings.

and yeah those are the two groups i was talking about; id love to see anyone try to play the smiths unequivocally in a red county in middle america

the smiths, no, but im not sure where pulps right-wing viewpoints wouldnt come out of pretty drastic misreadings.

and yeah those are the two groups i was talking about; id love to see anyone try to play the smiths unequivocally in a red county in middle america

-- deeznuts, Sunday, 16 March 2008 21:21 (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

"Misshapes", which, remember, Cocker now disowns entirely.

Isn't "Misshapes" practically a call to class war? Am I missing either a joke or a lyrical message?

I guess I'm also not sure where right-wing views would appear in Smiths (as opposed to solo Morrissey) lyrics.

(Hating disco doesn't count.)

i always wondered how many right wing douchebags and libertarian squirrel police types would be on ILE if it wasnt for ILM being right next to it, since most of them seem to find it because theyre really into like pulp or butthole surfers or the smiths or something

haha what would you do on ile if it weren't for douchebags?

Trying to shoehorn pop music into party political boxes, lol.

Reminds me of people claiming Acid House was Thatcherite 'cuz kids were making money putting on club nights.

besides come up with a zing to what I just said, that is? - xp

No douchebags = no zingfuel

best thread ever

srsly

no lie

TS: sowell vs d'sousa vs the entire cast of lewrockwell.com

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t214/ZachRScott/tom.gif

How dare you disrespectful that deep and meaningful philosopher.

Should just be 'disrespect' but maybe it sounds better that way.

Please explain how to play music "unequivocally" xp

ty hero Z S

hey dick its called being called gay xp

Isn't "Misshapes" practically a call to class war? Am I missing either a joke or a lyrical message?

-- Sundar, Sunday, 16 March 2008 22:08

OMG, Jarvis is wearing a BLACK SHIRT in the video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWiilrBq9vw

yeah sundar i dont get dom re misshapes either - i think he may be being sarcastic! and you bring up a good point re smiths vs moz solo lyrics.

(uh not being sarcastic)

Think it's something to do with middle class studenty types with a persecution complex moaning about working class "chavs" picking on them.

BTW, watching the video now, I'm having trouble making out who the misshapes and normal people are supposed to be. The guy in the skinny tie and leather jacket is a yuppie or something? Oh, 1995.

Just how many poor and undereducated homosexuals have you met in your life?

-- Cunga (Cunga), Wednesday, May 24, 2006 6:53 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark Link

Haha, scores of them. I went to an arts high school in a poor city.

As have I !(Massachusetts FTW) The Kanye West threads were more playful than the comments suggest.

And boo to all of you who will never read A Conflict of Visions!

I've read a slew of Paul Johnson's books, I think I've suffered enough.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DDwxhHwJ66M

i never understand what cunga is talking about

thats because youre not our greatest contemporary philosopher

& all the homosexuals i know are rich and wealthy

wait, whiskey fucked up my comeback

lol @ this thread!!!

we don't have a spartan thread so up this one comes, i'm afraid

hands up if you've listened to kilmer's commentary?! i'm not even 10 words in and it is already g.o.a.t.

[warner bros intro]

"i love warner brothers. they have a fine history of [intake of breath] radical films"

kilmer's commentary on kiss kiss bang bang is hilarious, is that what g.o.a.t. means?

Greatest Of All Time

he just quoted walter sobchak btw

I've had that film for a few years, and have never watched the commentary. I luv it tho.

So. This new play. :/