Tibet

The pictures of the aftermath look like the demo was fairly major:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/world/asia/15tibet.html?hp

I tried to get a Tibet thread going a while back but no one posted to it, so we might as well keep this one.

I've followed Tibet for years, I find all of central Asia deeply fascinating.

I guess Tibet's position is much like the Stans in the USSR so I hope that it is only a matter of time before independence is a reality. That time may well be quite a long period though. China being pretty stable right now.

Apologies for not searching.

I was in Students for a Free Tibet in college but I got turned off, at the time, by the fact that everyone seemed more interested in colorful prayer flags and pseudo-spirituality than in political action. Looking back on it, I think my judgment was a bit unfair. The spirituality gave people a reason to want to commit to the cause, and it's very hard to hold together a political cause for a country halfway around the world on pure ethical grounds. And it's not like I did a good job of committing to it myself.

Definitely park of the attraction for a lot of people. For me it is the other worldliness and the remoteness that is part of the attraction. the lack of borders until the Russians and British turned up. Also the early expeditions by various russians, indians and brits and, of course, Sven Hedin, (I have a couple of his expedition narratives).

This is absolutely disgusting. They've killed 100+ people today and injured thousands.

Certainly China's actions in Tibet are deplorable, but the revere for Dalai Lama and the exile government has always struck me as misguided. I'm not so into theocracy (especially one with the leaders determined by "reincarnation").

The Dalai Lama has always said that any return of Tibetan sovereignty would be democratic with the Dalai lama as a kind of constitutional monarch.

I guess Tibet's position is much like the Stans in the USSR so I hope that it is only a matter of time before independence is a reality.

chine is never ever giving tibet back - theres already more han chinese there than tibetans and it constitutes like a third of chinas landmass.

Not that I am particularly in favour of a constitutional monarchy or any kind of theocracy.

That the major resource of Tibet is space to put chinese in does make it a little different from the 'Stans, but I think the analogy still holds, especially as it will probably take a major breakdown of the chinese system for Tibet to wriggle free.

China's asking all foreign tourists to leave Tibet.

Rest of world will write a stern letter and act disapprovingly for a bit and then restore all ties to the up and coming economic world power that is China.

I hope someone finds the biggest ever oil reserve in the world China very soon, that would cause some even more interesting movements, I bet.

(in the world in China, duh)

That would only strengthen China's position.

What about... in Tibet? Would the intelligence services of the world covertly support the independence movement then?

Possibly. That's what happened in East Timor after all.

Right. Monks, start digging!

That the major resource of Tibet is space to put chinese in does make it a little different from the 'Stans

its more like they put their people there as a tool of domination - standard chinese practice for dealing w/grumpy outlying regions

Not just a tool of domination but of asserting a right to the land.

i.e. This is part of China because Chinese people live here.

Why do they want Free Dom? Don't they see what he's like on ILX? :-(

are there any rallies about this? Do people even have rallies anymore?

Pretty decent article about China's Tibetan genocide: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/13247913/the_end_of_tibet

(long though)

Anything that fucks up the Beijing Olympics is OK by me

"Certainly China's actions in Tibet are deplorable, but the revere for Dalai Lama and the exile government has always struck me as misguided. I'm not so into theocracy (especially one with the leaders determined by 'reincarnation')."

I don't see why revere for the Dalai Lama is misguided.

He has spent his whole life advocating peace and non-violence, and making the world a better place, also fostering religous tolerance. Reincarnation is someting that Buddhist's believe in, but what is most central to Buddhism is the belief in compassion, kindness, forgiveness, and living life in the present moment, with the goal being happiness not in the next life, but in this life.

Buddhism is actually very close to atheism, and the Buddha taught that his followers shouldn't belive what he says verbatim, only experiment with what he says and take what is useful to him. Buddhism is also probably the only religion to work with scientists, and place such a high regard on reason and logic.

Hmm...

I think I misread your comment a little. It looks like you weren't talking about the merits of Budhism but about the actual government, and the way they decide who is leader.

I can see how you would have reservations, but this is a sacred part of the Tibetan culture, and just because it wouldn't work in America, doesn't mean it doesn't work for Tibet.

*useful to them* is what I meant in that first post above

The rioting "monks" were chinese soldiers

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/China_staging_violence_in_Tibet_Dalai_Lama/articleshow/2910599.cms

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/images/Chinese-soldiers-posing-riot-monks-1.jpg

er

*cough*

allegedly.

thx for posting this stan

Actually, now I've looked into this a little further: that picture is from 2003, when they also did this. See comment under the picture here:

http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/chinese-orchestrating-riots-tibet.htm

It just didn't make sense for Buddhist monks to be so aggressive, but reading this just made it all clear :-/

"As pressure built for concerted western protests to China over the crackdown in Tibet, EU leaders prepared to discuss the crisis for the first time today, amid a rift over whether to boycott the Olympics.

The disclosure that Germany is to stay away from the games' opening ceremonies in August could encourage President Nicolas Sarkozy of France to join in a gesture of defiance and complicate Gordon Brown's determination to attend the Olympics."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9kejvxRokg

The Tibet violence scam is very slowly getting out there, but I doubt we'll see it in the mainstream media

http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/photo-china-regime-implicated-in-staging-violence-in-tibet-protest/

Why would China incite riots in Tibet? The Chinese seem most interested in just making the whole thing stop.

To create a reason for retaliation, to entice genuinely angry Tibetans to come protest with them -> revealing their identity, there's a lot of reasons why they could do so. If you provoke people hard enough, they'll do something to you, and then you can point at them: look, THEY started it! (middle east, anyone?)

That just doesn't jive with Chinese priorities at this time. With the olympics coming up, the Chinese are intently focused on keeping a lid on things in Tibet, not exasperating the situation there. Maybe the Chinese authorities planted undercover cops for whatever reason, but the idea that the riots were somehow orchestrated by the Chinese makes no sense whatsoever.

Why would China incite riots in Tibet?

There is a good reason why someone French coined the term agents provocateur.

Super tard.

"Why would the Chinese want legitimate and peaceful demonstrations of people of a nation that they are oppressing to look like the violent extremism of a savage rabble??!"

man shit stan, you don't think tibetans would really set shit off like that? a large proportion of young tibetans esp. in lhasa inside china (qinghai, sichuan, gansu), that are v. radical and obv. not shy about violence. they're not monks, they're young nationalistic men.

you can only make the case that the chinese gov't incited it with wild-ass conjecture and stretched out logic. get outta here with your epochtimes bullshit articles on some fake-ass blogs linking to CHINA HARVESTS 10 MILLION FALUN GONG HEARTS A YEAR. faker than xinhua.

xpost

"Why wouldn't the Chinese incite rioting in a restive region several months before a massively important event that is already controversial because of human rights issues involving that region???? And especially when the source of the information about this conspiracy is this incredibly reliable blog that seems really unbiased???"

And the notion that there were agent provocateurs in the crowd is certainly believeable, but that's different than saying that China "orchestrated" the violence in Tibet (which is what that website claims). That strikes me as implausible and dismisses the anger that many Tibetans expressed through violence. Isn't the point that the rioters were so angry and frustrated that they resorted to violence?

I think the claim is that the protests were real, and embarrassing the PRC, but they lacked means to suppress it without further alienating worlds opinion. So the stage the violent aspect of th demos, which then justifies the use of force against the protesters while alienating a section of society that would support protest until it becomes too violent/disruptive. I don't make any claims about the truth of otherwise of this claim, but I do think it is a more coherent account than you seem to be implying, SC.

Yeah, I see the logic beyond the conspiracy, especially when considering a lot of the rhetoric that comes out of Beijing. It just strikes me as unlikely that China would intentionally escalate the situation in Tibet when they're primary goal is to keep things as quiet as possible. By nearly every reputable account, the events that transpired in Tibet and neighboring provinces were a geniune expression of fury directed at the Chinese regime and ethnic Chinese. I don't understand this need on the part of Tibetan sympathizers to paint all Tibetans as angelic, pious, and peace-loving. I'm sorry if the idea of Tibetans burning things and beating people up challenges your image of the place and people, but there is a history of violent resistence to Chinese rule. It's part of the equation and shouldn't be dismissed because it runs counter to the images of Tibetans created by Hollywood and new-agey hippies.

Konnie Huq Wrestled To The Ground

Doesn't look to me like torch-bearing is much fun today.

Guardian newscrawl right now saying torch got extinguished in Paris!

does that mean they have to start again at olympus? lolololol

(they probably have a back-up right?)

http://www.bolenat.co.uk/files/images/cats/18.jpg

Hardly wrestled to the ground. I think the bloke who made to grab it off Huq could have actually got hold of it but chickened out at the last moment when he realised he didn't have a clear plan off what to do with said torch when he got it.

i just like the idea of wrestling konnie huq to the ground.

I like the look of surprise on her face.

My gut reaction yesterday was that a lot of the protesters looked like dicks. If you want to protest China get down the docks and stop their goods coming in don't pick on some kid carrying a torch in memory of his dad. It was no surprise to see Peter Tatchell there.

Yeah, but the world's media will not report you protesting down the docks.

I know, and I can totally see why they are doing it (and tatchell does love to get his mug in the worlds media). But despite supporting the cause of a free Tibet I ended up kind of feeling sorry for the torchbearers.

Which is perhaps not what the protest was trying to achieve?

I did feel a bit sorry for the torch-bearers as well but as an event this whole charade was too big too ignore. The line spouted by Steven Redgrave et al that the olympics is nothing to do with politics is utter bilge. This olympics is nothing but a pr stunt for China and the confirmation of their "acceptance" into the international community. I think protesters always look like dicks but that doesn't mean that protesting isn't worthwhile. As hypocritical as it may be, as much as one might think the only legitimate protest is a boycott of chinese products, there's nothing wrong with being opposed to genocide.

(Sorry if that sounds pointlessly sanctimonious)

No, I totally agree with everything you say and of course Redgrave's quote (and I heard Henman say it as well - I wonder where his branded sportswear is made?) is dumb. Just felt a bit weird is all.

I've look a bit of dick myself sometimes.

The line spouted by Steven Redgrave et al that the olympics is nothing to do with politics is utter bilge.

Not only is it utter bilge, politics was the main reason why the ancient Olympics were revived in the 19th century in the first place. The French military suffered heavy defeats by the German army. De Coubertin saw the lack of sports as the key reason why the unfit French lost the war with the Germans.

Wikipedia:
The interest in reviving the Olympics as an international event grew further when the ruins of ancient Olympia were uncovered by German archaeologists in the mid-nineteenth century. At the same time, Pierre de Coubertin was searching for a reason for the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian War (1870–1871). He thought the reason was that the French had not received proper physical education, and sought to improve this. Coubertin also sought a way to bring nations closer together, to have the youth of the world compete in sports, rather than fight in war. In 1890 he attended a festival of the Wenlock Olympian Society, and decided that the recovery of the Olympic Games would achieve both of his goals.

"boycott of chinese products"

The scope of such a boycott is unimaginable on any meaningful level.

from thisislondon.co.uk:

Olympic torch 'extinguished' by officials as anti-China demonstrations engulf Paris

Last updated at 12:22pm on 07.04.08

The Olympic torch was extinguished by officials today amid noisy demonstrations in Paris today.

The move came after it was decided to put the flame on a bus when police were confronted by thousands of protesters.

It was not immediately clear whether the torch was extinguished by accident.

The news comes as it revealed the Metropolitan Police are locked in a row with Chinese officials over who was to blame for the torch relay farce which brought embarrassment to London.

Both sides claimed the other was in charge of the 31-mile parade through London which was supposed to be a celebration of this year's Games in Beijing and instead turned into a fiasco.

And International Olympic Committee President Jacques Rogge admitted he was "very concerned" over the demonstrations.

"I'm very concerned with the international situation and what's happened in Tibet," he said in a speech to the Association of National Olympic Committees in Beijing.

"The torch relay has been targeted. The IOC has expressed serious concerns and calls for rapid, peaceful resolution in Tibet."

a bit of a "duh, no shit" column from Johann Hari: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-boycotting-the-beijing-olympics-wont-work-but-heres-a-proposal-that-just-might-805408.html

actually a bit misleading. his alternative to boycotting the olympics is..... to "threaten" to boycott the olympics.

That's a bit like me "threatening" to read one of his columns: ie, sounds good but is never going to happen

You guys need to look at the pro-china batshit facebook groups :(

There are pro-China dudes in my department. I get the impression from them that there is a little more to the politics of freeing Tibet than "Give Ireland Back To The Irish".

The Chinese bodyguards in tracksuits running around London protecting our light enterntainers were super creepy though.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/07/olympicgames2008.china

creepy!

China has been economically exploiting Tibet for the benefit of Han Chinese for quite a while.

But its ok, because THE DALI LAMA WAS A MONARCH, you see!

my prediction: chinese public resentment of external meddling/patronising hippies/european governments reaches such a level that tibet gets a major ass-kicking from beijing after the olympics. good times.

"boycott of chinese products"

The scope of such a boycott is unimaginable on any meaningful level.

Let's start with some South Koreans then...
http://www.samsung-europe.com/otr/nominate.htm

And, I draw your attention to the top rh corner, The Sun! Should be easy enough.

Roller skating police can't stop flame going out but continue to look cool.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/07/france.olympicgames2008

Yeah, the NYT article mentioned the rollerblading cops too:

Some 3,000 police officers in Paris — on foot, horseback, roller blades, motorbikes and even boats in the river Seine — tried to prevent a repeat of the scenes in London on Sunday, when the torch’s progression through the streets turned into a tumult of scuffles.

I bet rollerblading cops get really mad when you go off the concrete, jump a fence, or run over gravel.

I was there. Had some fun watching and photographing police antics and pro and anti china activists shouting at one another, but after two hours with no action we decided to retire to a cafe, from where we eventually saw over two dozen police vans and a number of coaches drive along the route, i think the torch was on board at that point.

A fascinating story, eh.

priceless

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370903.stm

he was just making an honest renminbi.

http://www.asymptotejournal.com/fiction/legend-of-the-dakini-ray-of-sunlight-white-tara/