Complainers

...YOU BITTER FUCKING COW."

Well, that's a big part of the problem, right? A complainer of that magnitude is pretty miserable at heart. Better to inquire into the personal misery that's at the root of the constant complaining than simply tell them to STFU.

Er, I don't have any stories offhand. I'm just in the mood to play at
http://www.statenews.com/media/00/00/02/61/26182_MAY_NEW_LUCY_101507.jpg

Do you or anyone else ever stop her mid-complaining and say "hey, are you doing okay?"

haha you're right, this might be a good idea...

i know, she's like this really kind of sad person, which i don't mean in a condescending way, that's just how i see it. i do my best to be nice to her! but sometimes it's just like get a clue

has a genuinely bitter fucking cow ever been turned around by, 'hey, are you doing okay?' because it seems to me that sort of talk might go straight to the top of the crimes (cheese) list.

i hate it when i talk so badly about people. but i mean really, there are people out there who just aren't out to get along.

obscure music?

Can I complain about all the fucking Doctor Who threads? And there is an ominous certainty that every other fucking season is going to be polled soon.

I don't read the threads (I think, like, once?), but out of a bit of bias I'll second Mark C. I have a coworker who is watching every single back episode of the Dr., and he dictates to me what happens in a good lot of them, even though he knows I have no interest in ever watching the show. He does the same with the X-Men. And every appearance of Brit in the tabloids. On and on, seriously pointed and critical about video games.

I JUST DON'T CARE

Oh, but right, Dr. Who. F that.

angry people are so weird. they must know how sad it is.

Keep condescending to them about how sad it is, I'm sure they'll see the light eventually.

surmounter is meta-complaining on this thread.

OK.

i'm talking about people who go out of their way to treat others with bitterness and disrespect. i do condescend to them, because that behavior doesn't merit much else.

laurel, people who are incapable of feeling gratitude or at least managing their discontent ARE sad & that's a fact

you don't seem very angry elmo. sometimes i get angry, but i try to keep it to myself.

Keep condescending to them me about how sad it isam, I'm sure they'll i'll see the light eventually.

-- Laurel,

experiments w/ strikethru

definitely not an angry guy; i'm generally avoidant of confrontation because it tends to make me feel perilously crazy and physically ill

this has its drawbacks, obviously

confrontation makes me kind of ill too. i sometimes avoid it just to make my life easier.

i am super non-confrontational because being yelled at is terrifying and makes me cry

it usually gives me a good feeling :|

lol

hey guys i know an anger management exercise that we can all do together

it goes like this:

http://laceylibertarian.us/wp-images/mad-as-hell.jpg

i think we all need to go on a retreat and do trust falls

hahaha

do we do it in front of the mirror?

ugh, crying. i'm terrible in an argument because the second i get frustrated or angry, i usually start to tear up. there's nothing more undermining.

yeah, me too.

Nobody wants to admit to being angry, except Tombot probably would, and me, apparently! But sometimes these conversations sound like a bunch of self-proclaimed "gentle souls" being superior to people who are naturally grouchy, impatient, and/or more plain-spoken.

people who are incapable of feeling gratitude

I mean, if taken literally, those people would be sociopathic, or something? So please, don't act like everyone who hurts your feelings is one of them.

Er that is not directly aimed at elmo even though I quoted him, I just thought the thread in general needed some leavening. :)

wait is this thread a bunch of people complaining about complainers?

yes

oh dont get me wrong there is no doubt you are naturally grouchy, impatient, & plain-spoken laurel

good job

xp NO

deez you're silly

i like grouchy people, i feel like my best friends are all curmudgeons on some level, though the super curmudgeons can be a little unbearable on occasion

hey now, curmedgeon is a good poster.

curmudgeon

oh, i'm plenty impatient and grouchy, but that isn't the same as being confrontational! i would rather go sit in a corner with a ferocious frown (or better, leave until i can get over it and possibly rant to a neutral third party) than actually tell someone i'm annoyed with them. that'll just start a bigger fight that i'll start crying about within two minutes.

um there's a difference between being angry sometimes about some things and being perpetually angry and miserable

HINT: the former is normal, the latter is sad

A complainer isn't so much a person who complains as a person who constantly complains and who, at heart, isn't really interested in seeing things get better, as (a) then they wouldn't have anything to complain about and (b) their constant complaining is really a reflection of their low self-worth and neediness.

Or, what n/a said

Good-natured grouchiness and curmudgeonery is fine; constantly acting like the universe has done you a major injustice, and like you're the most put-upon person in the world and the only one with any principles or whatever, is not.

The most classic example I know of this is a friend of mine who used to complain when I was invited, and she wasn't, to hang out with Person A and B. "Why do they always invite you, and never me?" Then, when I got her an invitation and we went over, she spent half the time rolling her eyes because we wouldn't do the things she wanted to do.

oh, i'm plenty impatient and grouchy, but that isn't the same as being confrontational!

Definitely! No one had brought up confrontation yet when I orig posted, I was just saying that little rays of sunshine are just as annoying to the non-rays as the grouches are to them.

I'm not a huge fan of confrontation either, but I do think it's better for me to get past immediate tears/afraid of other people's anger and get somewhere like "finds fits of temper potentially amusing". Practice is helping.

Good-natured grouchiness and curmudgeonery is fine; constantly acting like the universe has done you a major injustice, and like you're the most put-upon person in the world and the only one with any principles or whatever, is not.

otm

overheard a woman at the grocery store entering the produce area, stopped to look at cherries: "these cherries are all mush!"

since her husband didn't respond, she turned directly to him and repeated: "these cherries are all mush!"

and kept walking. she wasn't shopping for cherries. i was. i went over and picked up some cherries.

the cherries were not mush.

point is, some people will make shit up to complain about just so they can keep flapping their worthless gums

It's funny, actually -- every single person I know who does that (universe-injustice) also has some trademark rude/annoying behavior that alienates many of the people around them, but to which they seem oblivious, i.e., the habit of talking over other people, and/or ignoring what they have to say; a really penetrating and nasal voice; severe chain-smoking, so that they smell like an ashtray all the time; etc. It never seems to occur to them that some of their recurrent problems might stem from their behavior.

some people like being miserable, though

xxp That is true. My boss, for one. The neck of my dress today comes up to above my collarbones but it is sleeveless and this morning she said, "Pretty revealing, isn't it?"

Of what? MY ARMS?

YES charlie you're so right

I think what Laurel is talking about now is politeness. You can be impatient as all get out but still impeccably polite.

okay so but wait there are 2 different Marias then, right?

yes right, impatience is not rudeness!

and yes 2 different Marias.

k. you both seem real nice :)

So do I have to be patient waiting for the complainers? What if I'm in a snit and running late?

Right! Politeness is the surface, but the ideal is to REALLY mean those things, to really not be annoyed or self-concerned, or really have the perspective not to care that your plans have been ruined or whatever. That's what aspiring to the fruits of the spirit (love, peace, patience, kindness, something, something, and self-control) entails, to me.

Yes, but as we can't all embody the ideal, a lot of religious teachers advise practicing the external manifestations and eventually growing into the internal ones.

But real patience would be doing it honestly WITHOUT being passive-aggressively resentful about it.

I don't think this is true at all.

Patience is about enduring a sub-optimal situation and has nothing to do with how it makes you feel emotionally; the entire point of being patient isn't that these don't bother you, but that you can master the negative emotions generated by these situations. You don't have to enjoy it; you have to not be a raging dick about it when it comes time to address the situation that required so much patience in the first place. You can be mad without being hurtful and mean.

hi dere I like to contradict myself

This semantic confusion over impatience is why when in my initial post on this thread, in response to Laurel, I highlighted grouchiness and impatience as strange things to take pride in, but not plain-spokenness (which she also mentioned). I think most people can agree that, in many (but not all) situations, being direct and up front with people is a good thing.

I read somewhere that the number 1 stress trigger for people is lateness (running late themselves). I notice it myself. I am often late, but I also tend to call people as soon as I know I'm going to be late. Having 2 small kids to get to places has taught me a little about trying not to be too invested in whethe things happen as planned. It is important to remember I think that the lateness itself might not be that big a deal but the stress or aggravation that you allow yourself to feel could run ramshod over the rest of your day.

Thanks, Surmounter ;-)

I have pretty much stopped being stressed by lateness, which means I am constantly late for everything. This is actually awful, it's good to be concerned. (I'm impatient waiting for trains because of boredom, not lateness.)

some people like being miserable, though

I sometimes fear that I'm this way. Afraid that if I enjoy the moment, enjoy things around me, I will slip somehow. As if being content will cause me to lose discipline and revert to this state of laziness. Does that make sense? I feel as though I always have to push myself. This means that I'm in this negative state of mind. I know full well this comes from my mom who's always in control and can never "switch off." And I transfer this to my husband: I expect the same and am discontent when he isn't.

My jaw hurts most of the time. I can't seem to relax and take a frigging chill pill joint and smooooke. (Well, I can't cause I breastfeed, but boy do I CRAVE FOR ONE.)

But yeah I can't seem to find a balance. That said I am going a bit overboard with GOING OUT lately. I am enjoying that. It helps me to loosen up (my jaw hah).

I think you hit it on the head -- some people think there's something wrong if you're not struggling and pushing. I see this in the dynamics of the volunteers at our radio station. The station is great and is operating smoothly and sounds good and that makes some people reaaallly nervous. We have to run around stressed out or something is wrong, like we're not doing enough.

Then those people look everywhere for problems.

I know that complaining about oneself is about discipline and such. In my case it definitely is. I am extremely happy to have my husband who's a great counterbalance to that (even though I sometimes get extremely irritated that he's very laidback about things).

He's right: When I'm not worrying, I find something to worry about. :-(

God, my jaw hurts. Bah

You don't have to enjoy it; you have to not be a raging dick about it when it comes time to address the situation that required so much patience in the first place.

Ah, see, I very specifically think that this is graciousness or politeness (or etc), but not patience. It's just acting, it's not improving your soul, really (except of course that maybe through practice you realize things work out better that way and you really DO become okay with it).

Yes, but as we can't all embody the ideal, a lot of religious teachers advise practicing the external manifestations and eventually growing into the internal ones.

Yes! Haha, don't I remember from somewhere that you also had a strict(er) religious upbringing?

Me? No, not at all, I'm coming into it more as an adult. And having issues figuring out how much strictness is the right amount, because I think when you have it as a kid, you either internalize it or totally reject it...do you think?

How about this:

Act patient, even if it's an act; that doesn't mean you can't be clear, firm, assertive, and polite when confronting with bullshit.

People who chronically act impatient may get what they want in the short term, but in the long term, they'll breed resentment, resistance, and other bad stuff in their wake.

People who seethe inwardly, but act completely untroubled and accommodating, are fated to become bitter and miserable.

confronting = confronted, obv.

Really? For some reason I thought maybe you were raised Quaker...maybe confused you with someone.

I'm okay with just falling somewhere on the spectrum of virtues and not thinking about it so much, is what I'm saying. I yam who I yam and I'm not really interested in being permanently and eternally not good enough anymore.

Ha, I had just deleted this from my previous post:

(Despite what post-Calvinist theology may propose, IMHO. Its chronic self-flagellation over the "you-can-never-be-good-enough" difference between inner life and outer behavior is...one of my favorite things about Catholicism).

Ahahah. Yes. Going through my every day examining my life for ways to be more Christlike is just not on my to-do list anymore, especially since my vices take up so much more time than they used to. Now get the fuck outta my kitchen, you're standing in front of the spice drawer/beer cooler/crack supply.

Perhaps there's a happy medium, eh?

I think there is happy medium. I'm trying to get back to it myself, as lately I've fallen into conscious hypocrisy instead ("but I LIKE that vice!"). But I think you can try to be better without beating yourself up over not being good enough.

Yeah, but not everyone's happy medium is in the same place, which pretty much brings us back to "little rays of sunshine are just as annoying to the non-rays as the grouches are to them" that I started with.

Not to be purposefully circular, but then people didn't have to assume the worst and jump down my throat about it, either.

People who are way too happy make me nervous.
That's my fault, not theirs.

Dudes let's not fight

everyone listen to "Machine Gun" and be happy

Well, no one really cares if your inner life is impatient or not -- they care how you act. If you act impatient, you're gonna alienate people. Most people have dealt with people like that, and strongly resent it. So if you say, with (I don't think it's unfair to say) some degree of evident pride, that you're an impatient person and identify with that quality, they imagine those past experiences, and not with pleasure.

OTOH, if you say you're an impatient person who acts patient but resents it, they're more likely to think about you and your well-being, and offer constructive suggestions. When you say you're impatient, we can't tell whether you're talking about your inner life or the way you act.

xpost

lols @ my horoscope this week

John Mayer says it brilliantly in his latest hit called “Say”. He sings, “Say what you need to say even when your hands are shaking and your faith is broken, even as the eyes are closin’, do it with heart wide open. Find your feelings then speak up and out. Say all that you need to say then let the chips fall where they may.

The truth will you free you up and clear the air all the way around.

(I don't mean to minimize the difficulties involved, of course. I have a dear friend who's very impatient by nature, but realizes how it undermines her and hates herself for it. I do often get frustrated with her impatience, but I don't want to conceal her feelings, either. I guess I have a hard time understanding why some people are stuck in ON/OFF, binary, "I'm a doormat" vs. "Get the fuck out of my way" modes, when polite assertiveness, perhaps mixed with a little more patience and perspective, is all one really needs.)

Personally, I think "I am what I am" self-esteem culture is responsible for elevating belligerence and rudeness as virtues in modern Western society, largely because as more and more people reject Christianity, they reject all of the moral teachings that go along with it, effectively throwing politeness and common courtesy out with the bathwater. Being polite becomes cast as being a doormat subservient to the selfish desires as others when it doesn't actually need to be; I personally view it as stating your point of view with as much of the potential for personal attack removed as possible. This mostly centers around staying as calm as possible, sticking to facts as much as possible, and avoiding language associated with value judgements as much as possible. You can let someone know you are displeased with their tardiness without being mean, without being condescending and without being hurtful, and even if the person becomes defensive and takes umbrage to you bringing up the situation, you can apologize for the offense but still stand by what you said.

or kind of what Charlie said

(I think it's partly a question of concealing one's feelings vs. taking responsibility for them -- or, as Dan said, mastering them. Also in the mix is trying to get another person to do something vs. asking directly and taking responsibility for their reaction to your request, i.e. passive aggression vs. assertiveness.)

xpost

wait is this thread a bunch of people complaining about complainers?

-- Mr. Que, Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:49 PM (Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:49 PM) Bookmark Link

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes

-- Surmounter, Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:50 PM (Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:50 PM) Bookmark Link

lol

I think I'm arguing further to the outside than I'm actually living, because insistence on cheeriness and positivity and "niceness" as the default right or better way of living irritates the crap out of me (even though Charlie and Dan, you are two of the more rational voices on this thread and I realize neither of you are saying that).

But also both of you seem comfortable with a degree of assertiveness that I was brought up to consider rude...I suspect you're actually more OTM than my upbringers but it means that when I say "grouchy" or "impatient" or whatever I think I'm thinking of a milder form of it than you are.

I'm guessing gender socialization factors heavily into that.

Maybe? I mean, this

You can let someone know you are displeased with their tardiness without being mean. ...and even if the person becomes defensive (blah blah) you can...still stand by what you said.

...is the definition of impatience to me, and of plain-spokenness, and so on. When you say, even politely, "do what you want; I'm gonna" ie "suit yourself, and so will I", it shows that you're putting your own desires ahead of the group's (or the other person's).

Unless you can do it so adroitly that the person feels you've done THEM the favor, which would be the definition of a real lady of quality. How does that quote go? "Diplomacy is the art of letting someone else have your way"?

I can't speak for anyone else, but if I imagine what I'd say to one friend of mine who's often late, it'd go something like "So, the whole saying-you'll-show-up-at-seven-but-actually-showing-up-at-eight thing...next time let's not and say we did, eh?"

I don't really say "Suit yourself" or anything like that.

I mean, if he kept doing it, eventually it'd reach the point of "Look, we can't keep doing this, what the hell?" But you modulate things based on the circumstances. If an ambulance driver was 30 minutes late picking up my pregnant friend who'd gone into labor, I'd be far more direct.

My sister is notoriously late to gatherings. I realised last time that we all just automatically add 2 hours to her arrival time. "What time will R get here?" "She said noon, so probably 2 or 3" Evrybody seems to have accepted it and doesn't stress.

I think the important thing, Laurel, is that none of us are your mother.

You would know!

(Sorry, but I think that's a harsh thing to say to Laurel.)

I didn't mean for it to be harsh! I've bit my tongue enough already on this thread.

There's a huge verbiage thing going on here. I think you can be direct with someone without saying "suit yourself" or "do what you want, I'm going to do this". I'm thinking more along the lines of "I understand that x happened but please don't be late the next time we get together" or "Would you mind not doing y around me? It causes z and I would rather not have morez in my life." You can even remove yourself from the situation by saying "I'm not comfortable with blahblah so I'm going to go home. I'll see you tomorrow?"

It may cause unnecessary defensiveness but it's really low on character judgement if the other person allows you to talk through the situation.

When I start complaining, Scott says something like, "I know, it's tough here in Bagdad. You've really got it horrible here in Somalia." My new theory is to good-heartedly poke fun at trouble-makers.

http://gothamist.com/2008/06/12/not_a_complainer_lady_who_waited_ho.php

My mother is a notorious complainer. (probably why I felt the need to leap into the fray wrt Jaymc). One of my brothers has this amazing way of taking the tension out of any tense situation. And he is perpetually late!

He is just so kind and gracious that you feel foolish even thinking about complaining. Unless you are my mother. She tends to say vaguely hidden mean things, like "Well, well well! The prodigal has decided to show up!"

My brother will usually respond with something like "Yes! And I'm so happy to be here with my family!" It's very disarming.
Kill 'em with kindness, I guess?

And, yeah, I sort of remind myself that my life IS way better than lots of folks in other places. That doesn't mean I get to use it as an excuse - it should be an impetus to do better.

I think people who complain a lot tend to have some underlying malaise, and that can be really toxic. But it's also something that COULD be addressed. Asking someone (at work, in life) why they are feeling so negative shouldn't be difficult. It IS difficult, but it shouldn't be.

When I start complaining, Scott says something like, "I know, it's tough here in Bagdad. You've really got it horrible here in Somalia." My new theory is to good-heartedly poke fun at trouble-makers.

Hah. This is what I say to myself when I worry and/or complain. It really does help, y'know.

My brother will usually respond with something like "Yes! And I'm so happy to be here with my family!" It's very disarming.
Kill 'em with kindness, I guess?

While Miss Manners would not approve of his consistent lateness, she would find that response absolutely masterful.