Should I get an MFA?

if you want to teach, why not just go straight to a phd program? most phd students get full funding, ergo no debt.

Cause I had to make a financial judgement call that resulted in not doing a thesis.

And as I understand it, it's tough to get into a PhD prog w/o a thesis under your belt? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

you can always just write your own thesis.

Everyone I know who got an MFA in creative writing just ended up applying to PhDs anyway. You don't need a thesis -- app committees aren't going to read them. Many just require a writing sample of 10+ pages. Get bent OTM on getting funding -- do not pay for graduate school since it won't really pay back the costs.

Yeah and I say "go 40k into debt" w/the assumption that the majority of that would be funded, but there'd be significant debt incurred nonetheless I think?

The Ph.D. market looks charming, if you're doing English. My shithole college in New Jersey was filled with newly minted Yale, Harvard, U Penn, etc., English Ph.D.s... and those schools only have like, 10 Ph.D. students a year.

So, that's the future for the best of the best.

all the advice i get abt the phd thing is basically, only do it if you dont have to pay for it, only do it if you cant see yourself doing anything else, and only do it if youre ok with being an adjunct for the rest of your life

Yeah, I would really think hard about getting a Ph.D. if you just want it to teach. There are other ways to do it.

only do it if you cant see yourself doing anything else

This is the rub I think. I can't imagine myself doing anything other than teaching, and I'd rather teach at the uni level only because you're more likely (if not significantly so) to be teaching an audience that's interested in the subject than you would be in a public secondary school.

Cause yeah spend the time & the money only to find out that it doesn't make me happy?? :/

And obv there are the countless horror stories of "I got into this MFA program and now I never do any writing unless it's deadline cause I'm ded from teaching all these freshmen in their intro classes"

so yeah my twin impulses = teach & write and obv when it comes to life path you gotta prioritize one as breadwinning profession and one as side-pursuit i'm just torn as to which and i guess i was hoping a chorus of "go for its" or "no mfas are a waste of time" would help me clear up which one to pursue.

bueloler

I would recommend against the PhD, unless you have no interest in yr soul whatsoever.

I don't have long enough at the moment to give a really thorough response, but here's the outline, which I can expand on later if you want:

1. Wait a while. You'll get WAY more out of an MFA after a few years out writing/working on your own. There are loads of reasons for this, but the most important one is that you'll have a concrete, confident sensibility to take in with you, and that's important. If you're still sorting out how you want to write, an MFA can do more harm than good, by constantly distracting you with how other people write. Don't just go because you want to keep writing. Wait until you feel like you have an agenda, a real sense of what you want to accomplish and what you want to use those workshops to develop.

2. Go someplace that will fund you well. If you don't see funding the first time you apply, wait a year, develop your stuff, and apply again. You have time.

2a. Don't do this thing people do where you spend your MFA years living off loans and not working at all because you're "concentrating on your writing" but actually just drinking and sleeping with people. Live poor and work. (You're going to have to learn to balance working and writing at some point anyway.)

3. If your goal is to teach writing, and you don't want to spend your "waiting" time just working and trying to write on the side, consider finding some community group that does writing workshops for the public, and get some teaching experience -- you won't be working with high lit, but you'll be a step ahead with teaching if/when you do an MFA.

Summary: A good MFA program is helpful, yes; it improves your writing, improves your sense of how your writing actually communicates with others (and not just how it seems to you); there's a ton of value in a good one. But I think it does all of these things way better if you're taking the advice in #1. You go out on your own and work and write, and you get as far as you can that way -- you figure out what you want to go, you produce a backlog of good material, you get as good as you can. And then eventually you recognize a point where you feel like you're getting somewhere, but what you need is time to work, a space to really focus on writing, and more feedback and readers. When you hit THAT point, that's when you need an MFA program.

hello no, get an MBA

http://www.ycp.edu/download/Picture3_mba_web.jpg

^^ this could be HOOS

Re: the thesis issue - Hoos, if you do decide to go the PhD route (though I'd certainly pay heed to some of the cautionary tips above), not having written a thesis as an undergrad will not necessarily effect your chances of getting into a good liberal arts Phd track, especially if your work is solid, you have a decent GPA, you have reasonably good L.O.R.s, you don't totally screw up the GRE, and (most important) you present yourself in a personal essay as having a somewhat solidified and unique idea about what you want to pursue as a grad student. Even if you change your course of study later on, convincing an admissions board of your intellectual potential in written form can obviate all sorts of other formalities and get you in the door even if you went to a second-tier school or got a 2.5 your freshman year, etc. Never underestimate the power of the personal essay.

Don't do this thing people do where you spend your MFA years living off loans and not working at all because you're "concentrating on your writing" but actually just drinking and sleeping with people.

Isn't that the point of going to grad school?

Doesn't matter what your degree is, you'll be in adjunct hell, teaching wise, unless and until you have a few book publications under your belt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK0ITXBWpHE

^^ must-watch for HOOS

Is that an employee training video cause I might be writing them soon

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=58492#unread

damn ruined my joke

Thanks for the help, guys. I really do appreciate it, and I'll try to keep the advice in mind. The suggestion to wait is well taken.

Hoos - one more word on the PhD vs. MFA argument: It is considerably more difficult to acquire the kind of funding it would take to cover the costs of a top-tier masters program than it is to get full-tuition + annual stipend for a PhD program. However, many (if not most) liberal arts PhD programs will award you with a masters on your way to getting the ultimate prize. So, in theory, you could enroll for the PhD and cut and run with an MA or MFA. Personally, I don't know anyone who's done this - there may be certain academic/professional repercussions to doing that.

to = for

one more for waiting on the MFA and waiting further still on the ph.d.

just in general it's never a good idea to rush headlong into building more debt for yourself

Do I wanna sink $40k into debt

OH HELL NO YOU DON'T

i know right payin shit off til i'm 40

my stepmom is 37 and she just finished paying off her undergrad loans from a private college, i'll be doin it up obama style finishin up loans at 47 or whatever

or you could, uh, fuck school in the eye and go write a fucking book that dumbasses love to recommend to their relatives

I mean hey fight the system

no I'm kidding I love hitchhiker's guide as much as the next guy, that was a bestseller

http://www.kattermans.com/corrections_franzen.gif

???

xxp

are friends in the program already sufficiently well indoctrinated in the program that of course they've got to convince themselves and others it's worth it..?

Speaking as one who did this for a liberal arts degree (which I never finished due to being crazy & which would have done me no good anyway).. $40K debt for me right now = an extra $400/month I could be saving for.. well.. a house, or using to live in a nice apartment, or going out, or traveling.. instead of throwing to the feds and Sallie Mae until I'm 40. Think about it. Granted, I live in an expensive city.. but..

I would recommend against the PhD, unless you have no interest in yr soul whatsoever.
word on that. if you're thinking of PhD.. the job market for PhDs in humanities is unbelievably horrible. I got out, and I'm grateful I managed to get out with only $40K in debt and still have my sense of humor and all.. but.. well, a good friend of mine is just finishing her PhD in English after about 7 years and she's transformed from one of the most fun, cheerful, all round fantastic people to be around I've ever met into.. completely miserable. and she got a job in the field, even.

I guess if your ultimate goal is PhD, though, apply for that and if they want you they'll fund you. if your plan is pay $40K for MFA and then apply for PhD, I say no.. a lot of MFA programs are effectively moneymakers for the school because no one gets funding and they cost a lot..

http://www.frenchtowner.com/m/eat-pray-love.gif

http://kyledesigns.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/elizabeth-gilbert-eat-pray-love1.jpg

^^ this could be u hoos

the job market for PhDs in humanities is unbelievably horrible.

yeah i keep hearing this

loool xxp

That's my ultimate fear I guess is "hey I'm a bajillion moneys in debt and no one will hire my English-teachin ass"

No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money — Samuel Johnson

my chaucer prof quotes dude like on the daily

7 years in grad school sounds like an ok way to ride out the recession

ha i have said that on like 3 of your college threads dude

rolling 2008 pre- and post-graduation crisis thread

HOOS, also, I learned a good lesson about what it was like to fail miserably at something (I think ultimately that was a very good lesson and I'm grateful) but the fact that I'd borrowed $40K to do it made me hang on much longer than I should have - it warped my perspective on everything - coursework that was already stressful became extra so because, after all, I borrowed all this money.. quitting became inconceivable because, after all, I borrowed all this money.. and I spent an entire year utterly caught between being unable to finish and unable to quit, because I'd borrowed all that money. If I hadn't left I'd probably have driven my car off a bridge or something.

My suggestion is, though, since you're not me.. think about what you have to do on a daily basis to do the program and get the teaching job you'd want at the end of it. because, again, if you love love love teaching English the process of getting a PhD on a daily basis involves some time preparing and teaching, and a hell of a lot of long hours doing reading and grinding out papers and trying to publish and assimiliating yourself into the profession. can you do that for 2 years (mfa) or 6 years (phD)?

my grad advisor actually lectured me at length apropros of nothing on the travails of humanities grad students who imagine they can find some teaching job at a small college somewhere, as in, it is impossible and it sucks and the whole thing is a fucking pyramid scheme

she and I are both engineering graduates, no beef though

daria makes another very good point re: dangers of SUNK COST FALLACY

all the advice i get abt the phd thing is basically, only do it if you dont have to pay for it, only do it if you cant see yourself doing anything else, and only do it if youre ok with being an adjunct for the rest of your life

something for another thread: people who say they're writers yet "don't find the time" to read

can't tell you how many times i heard this just during two nights of AWP offsites

the really kickass mentor is gonna have a hard time getting me in print unless the really kickass mentor has the kinds of connections the freaky spindly mfa jungle gym provides, i think? xxp

― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Monday, February 7, 2011 10:47 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark

the need to get the connects is obviously pressing & important, but there must be a more direct and less expensive way to get them. are you even guaranteed them by enrolling?

"workshops" kinda perplex me. my writer friends read my stuff, and, when i'm lucky, editors do too. i don't have to pay them. it's pretty neat.

i do have friends getting MFAs though. i don't think it's doing anything for their writing that they couldn't do outside the university, but it's getting them connections, which does matter. it does seem that there's probably a cheaper way even to get those, though.

probably a longshot, but did you go to the m0nst3rs of p0etry thing at the asylum bar?

xp

i hope my friend doesn't see this, but i just asked him if he's glad he got an mfa and he kinda indicated that he's not :/

he basically said that it was a good time to get work experience and he was in grad school instead

(i think he's unemployed atm)

i thought about it! but i didn't. that was saturday night, right? i wound up at the black squirrel i think. xp

btw guys brb i gotta finish up at the office or i will never have time to contribute to this thread

i just don't find the time to ilx

i do have an acquaintance who is a semi-successful poet. I mean as successful as a poet can be without being like maya angelou or something. he is a d-bag, though.

i think it was on friday. anyway, those are my bros.

oh rad, yeah friday i went to a thing hosted by drunken boat/32 poems/"tuesday: an art project," traded infos w/a v v pretty editor of a v prominent journal

so that was nice

a v prominent journal

ugh u see how it starts

prominent as in $$$ or as in, idk, kudos or whatever people write for

prominent as in "kudos"

it is v "in"

u shudhang w me ihave mad cxns in literary circles, cud make r break u on a whim jus sayin

lol lets do it imo

yah stick w me zadie smith and jonathanfranzen r glad they did lemme tell u

just to mention a couple of my protogees

thank god for all of us

i was like jonathan we could go n/l w/ this oprah thing

get an mfa in websites instead

master of fine websites

hoos did you read that batuman article on mfas

yes and it made me wish batman had written an article on mfas

lol. I haven't done an MFA but I think she's pretty otm - a MFA seems like an opportunity to hone your 'craft' to standards proscribed and prescribed by whatever writing community you end up at, and it may pay you (minimally) to write, but I don't really see what else it provides.

idk, I think of all the writers from the past who I admire and very rarely do I find that they specialized in writing/English at an academic level? idk what an MFA offers that a willingness to immerse yourself in tradition, a critical eye directed inwards, and a few good friends wouldn't provide.

also in terms of improving one's writing I feel like disconnecting oneself from the internet would probably have a 100x more beneficial effect than an MFA

or maybe you can just pay somebody to follow you around all day and make sure you never use a computer

probably would cost the same as an MFA

I will do it for half the price

as long as I don't have to read anything

a MFA seems like an opportunity to hone your 'craft' to standards proscribed and prescribed by whatever writing community you end up at

yeah this is why its so important to find a program that has a writer or two you admire, but the only way to really make an informed decision on this is to A) find a program with a Famous Writer You Recognize or B) find out if you admire any of the mid-level types in these programs. A) is pretty tough, and the only way to do B) is to dive into planet mfa and subscribe to a bunch of journals and thoroughly enmesh yourself in this whole other world

it's frustrating

Mostly Fucking Around

my cat just farted while it was licking its asshole

a MFA seems like an opportunity to hone your 'craft' to standards proscribed and prescribed by whatever writing community you end up at

yeah this is why its so important to find a program that has a writer or two you admire, but the only way to really make an informed decision on this is to A) find a program with a Famous Writer You Recognize or B) find out if you admire any of the mid-level types in these programs. A) is pretty tough, and the only way to do B) is to dive into planet mfa and subscribe to a bunch of journals and thoroughly enmesh yourself in this whole other world

it's frustrating

― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Tuesday, February 8, 2011 2:09 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is all untrue ime, just do your fucking homework and have emotions and put them somewhere

your post is v oblique to me uh oh i'm having a fantasy

Would it become any clearer if I beat you with this stick?

Shit. I put that stick down just for a moment and now I can't remember where. Perhaps if I were to brandish this finger in a menacing fashion?

Dzogchen Ponlop: Microsoft. That’s a moment. When the hour-glass never stops, that’s the moment. Or when you have worked on a document that’s like twenty pages long and suddenly it has disappeared. That’s like, “pow”, wake up moment. So thanks for Microsoft!

All my hourglasses are made by Microsoft. I am very discriminating that way.

eah this is why its so important to find a program that has a writer or two you admire, but the only way to really make an informed decision on this is to A) find a program with a Famous Writer You Recognize or B) find out if you admire any of the mid-level types in these programs. A) is pretty tough, and the only way to do B) is to dive into planet mfa and subscribe to a bunch of journals and thoroughly enmesh yourself in this whole other world

it's frustrating

― HOOS the master?? STEEN NUFF (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Wednesday, February 9, 2011 6:09 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

this also kind of assumes that said writer is an effective teacher who will show you insights above and beyond what you could get from just reading her work and will be able to impart on you w/e magic she has

just playing devil's advocate here

its a good poitn

hey fyi everybody i have actually earned a degree in spelling and i spell real good when my keybard works

I love the idea of a keybard - a modern day bard whose instrument is not a lyre but a keyboard

I was also just thinking about the discrepancy between output and teaching - like there IME there are profs and people out there who have a staggering catalog of work but absolutely suck in teaching, whether it's because they just can't be arsed about it because they're Mr. Big, or because they have no idea, or because they're lazy, or w/e

and then there are some absolutely fantastic teachers whose work you're maybe not so thrilled by, but they're really energetic and passionate and are willing to dig deep into your writing and point out to you what works and what doesn't work and all of that

and it's hard to get an idea for that just by flipping through a list of faculty you know?

absolutely, and i think finding a teacher who's a good critic--ie one who could help you understand what makes those writers you admire so effective--is maybe more important than sitting at the feet of someone whose work you dig

david foster wallace talked abt this, how in academic/creative institutions theres this over-valuation of the creative work done by professors/tutors/lecturers and this is emphasised more than their uh actual quality as a teacher in terms of pay/title/etc. and how fucked that is.

**Posting this at Hoosteen's request because he can't get on ILX at work**

For example: begin talking about trying the writing life, about applying to MFA programs, and the first thing anyone who has gone through a writing program will tell you is, “Don’t expect to get anything out of it.” You’ll be told that workshop is harsh (or else stupid), that creative writing teaching jobs are a figment of Jane Smiley’s imagination, that James Franco is the only person in the country allowed to publish short stories anymore.

http://www.theawl.com/2011/03/on-expectations-and-a-writers-lack-of-same

this is all untrue ime, just do your fucking homework and have emotions and put them somewhere

― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 8 February 2011 22:47 (11 months ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

have emotions and put them somewhere <- amazing

So it turns out it's all the CIA's fault!
http://chronicle.com/article/How-Iowa-Flattened-Literature/144531/

all these stories abt the cia funding the arts and i never hear anyone asking the important question, is there any money available right now

http://i.imgur.com/7PlgW3z.jpg

If this isn't linked above...https://twitter.com/GuyInYourMFA?lang=en-gb

Its the best, really funny.