Do you believe in cosmic retribution?

No, I'm totally with you. The universe does not care a whit for you, and it makes no judgement whatsoever for your actions, neither to reward nor punish. It's a hard knock life for us.

This is why I am solidly pro-bloodthirsty-vigilante.

Haha, it is why I am so revolted by the idea of revenge!

Except in "History of Violence." That shit was awesome. "Death Wish" can fuck right off, however.

I don't either. And though I wouldn't exactly say the thought is comforting - I don't mind either. The dwelling on, or wishing for, karma or retribution...is negative for me. I feel much better about things if I am not thinking these sort of thoughts

(abbott -- i was kidding. And yeah, Death Wish is the perfect example of a movie that's like, "Ok wtf, this is just plain irresponsible.")

although sometimes, you've just had... ENOUGH.

http://www.impawards.com/2002/posters/enough.jpg

better that picture didn 't post, really. So unnecessary.

I can see how some lousy things that have happened in my life might be connected to grief that I've caused others previously, while conversely some good fortune I've enjoyed seems to be related to past occasions when I've treated others very well or even gone out on a limb for someone...but those are just feelings that I have, intuitions of sort, and I can understand why people would find ideas that attribute people's life circumstances at a given time to such a mechanism to be outrageous or offensive or whatever.

There is a balance of karma, of sorts, but it's more a practical than metaphysical truth: Evil folks often wind up suffering as a direct result of their evillity. Not always, but often enough.

short answer: no.

i've always liked the idea of karma from later buddhism, that actions have consequences that ripple out thru time but don't necessarily come back to "you" on a 1-for-1 basis

also, i forget who said this of the damned in dante, but it's something like: "they hardly need to be punished, hell springs up around them"

Yeah, also I also should add to my post above that I think that imagining that you are being "punished" for whatever reason when shitty things happen in your life is pretty much always an unhealthy and counterproductive attitude to take...

I don't believe in karma or anything metaphysical like that, but I do think treating people nice usually results in them treating you nice as well. Of course there are things beyond our control, like natural disasters or cancer or stuff like that, but in general I've found that having a positive outlook tends to result in more happiness. On an everyday level, not a cosmic one.

I sorta do believe in it, but not from the 'good things happen to good people' pov, but from the you mess up it'll bite you in the ass pov.

Pretty much agree with everything on this thread so far.

Yeah, me too.

I don't really believe in a hell or similar divine vehicles of literal punishment, but I do think that if you do a bunch of bad shit you are not gonna be a happy person. so in that sense, yeah, karma works. you pay for your actions in mental anguish.

iow this: "they hardly need to be punished, hell springs up around them" OTM

I believe that everything averages out, or that the goodness and badness of deeds is a matter of perspective.

"...but I do think that if you do a bunch of bad shit you are not gonna be a happy person. so in that sense, yeah, karma works. you pay for your actions in mental anguish."

this simply isn't true for many many people throughout history. and besides, i'm not sure what being happy proves. or mental anguish for that matter. i am a relatively lucky person with lots of good things going on and people who love me and all that, yet i suffer quite a bit of mental anguish because of depression, anxiety, things like that. luck of the draw. and i don't recall drawing!

this simply isn't true for many many people throughout history.

I don't see how anyone can state this authoritatively.

Or its opposite?

xposts
andrew, face facts. you're obviously just a bad, bad man.

I don't see how anyone can state this authoritatively.

no, but someone could post endless pictures of grinning GWB, Cheney, and other historical vilains

Or its opposite?

which is why I said I "believed" it. its a belief. I'm sure we could all sit here and compare anecdotal evidence both pro and con (Nixon, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, McNamara etc not very happy people, for ex) and not really get anywhere.

Dubya is PLENTY disturbed. Christ that guy's scrawled his neuroses all across the geopolitical stage.

x-post

i can tell you i'm happy, but what does it matter to you? you might not believe it to be true. but my point is, plenty of awful things have been done throughout history by people upon whom the universe never did seem to heap karmic payback. and again, happiness or mental anguish have little to do with it.

xp mostly to shakey btw

which is why I said I "believed" it. its a belief. I'm sure we could all sit here and compare anecdotal evidence both pro and con

Yeah I know that but you can read andrew m's statement as prefaced by "I believe", I believe, rather than being an authoritative statement?

. but my point is, plenty of awful things have been done throughout history by people upon whom the universe never did seem to heap karmic payback. and again, happiness or mental anguish have little to do with it.

I'm not trying to cast aspersions on any average person's particular mental state or saying that "if you are unhappy its because you're a bad person". I come at it from the angle of your existence, the sum total of your experiences and identity and point of view, are all in your mind - and if you do a bunch of bad shit (kill people, endeavor to benefit from the suffering of others, etc.) that stuff pollutes your mind, it prevents you from enjoying your life and connecting to other people, it upsets any kind of internal mental balance. Take, for example, Mao - by all accounts a total power-mad, genocidal, egotistical asshole - died lonely and paranoid, convinced of his total failure and haunted by the ghosts of his enemies, spent most of his life worrying that those close to him were trying to kill him. I guess that doesn't really "make up" for all the people who suffered as a direct result of his actions, but on a personal level, the man lived a miserable existence. I'm satisfied to call that "karma".

(okay so I said I "think" instead of "believe" in my original post, you get the idea)

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Ok but "do a bunch of bad shit" and "upsets any kind of internal mental balance" is kind of chicken-and-egg, innit?

fair point kenan - since I don't believe anyone is BORN evil, it does beg the question.

and I'm not sure I have an easily summarized answer to that - basically it comes down to why is there evil in the world. insert Buddhism 101 "life is suffering"/"its the nature of the universe" non-answer.

There are sociopaths out there who don't, or can't feel bad for their actions. What of them? I think this is a notable factor in my belief that cosmic retribution doesn't exist.

It sucks that the legal system is so insanely flawed, for the non-cosmic retribution. (I generally believe in forgiveness but that doesn't preclude deserving some kind of external consequence for the person who I'd need to forgive. I'm kind of mad at the local legal system right now.)

karmic predestination y'all

There are sociopaths out there who don't, or can't feel bad for their actions. What of them?

they're totally alienated from the rest of humanity - how fun does that sound

I mean I highly doubt they're all jus happy-go-lucky mass murderers a la Dave Foley's Axe Murderer - they probably spend the bulk of their time being lonely and confused and/or wishing they were dead.

guys, dick cheney is a chronically ill and ugly fat bastard who married a talk-show harridan, by whom he gave birth to a self-hating bull dyke. The idea that a man like that has gotten "what he wanted" is beyond absurd.

Yes but does their sociopathy impact them emotionally? I think sometimes their reaction is all tabula rasa. Maybe I'm totally making shit up here. (Also hahaha Dave Foley)

xp

Tombot so OTM re: Cheney

I think karma is as much about one's perception thereof than it actually happening, per se. In the sense that I agree with most everyone here that the universe doesn't care less what you do in it, it just carries on regardless; I find that comforting too.

That said, I can't help but bear an awful weight of troubled heart when bad luck strikes, and I realise it is the same kind of badness I've (inadvertently or otherwise) dished out myself in the past. Logical-me knows there's nothing to it, but it doesn't kill the feeling I earned it.

Then again, sometimes I try and do the right thing (esp with regards to honesty) and I see other people who lie like kites get away with everything they do, so who knows.

Yes but does their sociopathy impact them emotionally?

I dunno, who are we talking about here? Gimme an example. Serial killers? Invariably a pathetic and unhappy lot.

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Your everyday jerks and assholes who convincingly seem unphased at their actions or don't seem to comprehend their impact.

I'd say much lurks beneath the surface and you probably don't want to know

Maybe I'm too young to see how things play out with these people, but very little grief seems to hit some of the world's assholes.

xp

That too could be true, and I certainly don't want to know.

Am I simply lost in a cloud cuckoo land of my own unwitting device?

karma as cosmic retribution is purely a theistic pop culture phenomenon - at least from a buddhist pov its certainly not considered predestination - but of course its a concept thats present in tons cultural and religious situations that i wouldnt assume to be an expert on

Maybe it's why I can't work spirituality.

the world's bigger assholes tend to be the kind of folks who have been learning to process large daily volumes of grief and alienation since they were very young and so of course when you meet them as adults they aren't going to appear to be phased by ANYTHING

or to put a finer point on it kids who got abused by their own families for years and years could give a shit less what you think of how they act e.g. 99% of career criminals

Life can be pretty damn heartbreaking.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_f3SZ5Tu916o/R_02iTg05_I/AAAAAAAAFx8/lXrKsmk1cZk/s400/whap.jpg

braniac dum-dums bust the scientifical

ts: theory vs hypothesis
but yeah i agree, since science has sometimes been wrong and has been deified to some degree, we should view it all with tremendous suspicion and turn back to 5000 year old views of the universe cause they knew the time back then (ts: sundials vs atomic clocks)

that's not what he said

wasn't really talking to him

And this is why you cannot even have *theoretical* religious discussions on this board. Thank you.

I mean, that was a little later than usual - but about on time

because we're not all kooks searching for comfort and a dash of feeling unique from the majority of Westerners in a time-tested 1000s of year old untestable "theory"?

HYPOTHESIS

Racist granny! Wash your dentures NOW!

You're mixing up your precious scientific facts: religious people aren't all "kooks searching for comfort," they're embittered gun-owners who will vote against your best man-given democratic interests.

Nice job with the sweeping generalizations though, and the inability to differentiate between matters that are beyond the scope of "testing," - I'm sure you're working on a groundbreaking epistemological study that will invalidate all human spirituality as forevermore irrelevant! Also it's thrilling that ilxors continue to discuss religious matters with scientific terms to start with, how astute of them..

Oh and about me "feeling unique from the majority of Westerners" ? Yes, my family members certainly worked HARD at this, laboring to feel "different," gosh I hope we're almost there. Leave "1000s" (no idea why you're spelling it that way) of years aside, why, after mere centuries of constructive colonialist rule and enlightening imperialist exploitation, we were all ready to cast our silly little world-views and snake bracelets and belief-systems aside (my grandfather started wearing TROUSERS, tossed the rags!) (m0dern!). But after the whiplash of following you guys from Victorian missionary fervor to cold liberal atheism, my folks are now trying to feel UNIQUE ...and that is why they brainwashed me with TEH THEORY OF KARMA. Along with my 11 inch pecker (that brings me a LOT of comfort), and the way I shake my head from side-to-side instead of "nodding" to indicate yes -- I hope I stand out in the locker room now~!

But suzy's right - maybe you're just a racist who hates fanatical darkies. I mean if she claims to know you, she's got to - which means you're a E-list celebrity with bad teeth

yep, must be a racist, what other reason is there? brilliant deduction, once again, ILE! that's on page 1 of the manual, right?
no need to bring your "folks" into this, unless they put quotes around "science" too.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Ouroboros.png

sorry man but this whole "you are an automaton who is mentally handcuffed and cannot see the full realm and scope of the beauty and workings of the universe as I do" is really condescending and makes me respond in kind.

not that i you know read all of vichitraviryas posts - but you seem to embody the attitude yr railing against way more than anyone else on this thread

Vic, you utter bhainchute, next time some sockpuppet attacks your religion and family background, don't insult the real person who steps up to register their disgust at the attacker.

pat yourself on the backs, you two

^multiple "personality" disorder

you're very clever, you know

...and you're not. Next!

zing!

Suzy I read your comment as a complete sarcastic one that was sympathetic to -> is this person a sockpuppet? I figured just an old hater I didn't recognize <- and I thought you preemptively wanted to mock anything I could say against him/her/it

I sincerely apologize

Btw, that term couldn't apply to me as I'm sister-less.

HAHAHAHA. Bengali swear words, where is the lurve?

I'm quite impressed, and just fyi, that would work as a proper phirst-class insult in Hindi/Marathi/Punjabi/Urdu/Bihari/etc just as potently as Bengali. Offend 1/9th of the world!

Use it judiciously :)

knowing that word, she must not be racist. good job, suzy!

Along with my 11 inch pecker (that brings me a LOT of comfort), and the way I shake my head from side-to-side instead of "nodding" to indicate yes -- I hope I stand out in the locker room now~!

oh man post of the day

do you believe in comic retribution?

Vic: it's down to THANK YOU BHANGRAMUFFIN TEENS OF LONDON. But I digress. xposts

Last time I was in London I was taken to Brick Lane to eat - is that horribly cliche/passe and counterproductive (ie, "not very good") now?

>not that i you know read all of vichitraviryas posts - but you seem to embody the attitude yr railing against way more than anyone else on this thread

I don't doubt that my tone probably swings embarrassingly between defensive and contemptuous, but it really is these the ilx hidden history of these religion-trashing threads - and all the hivemined previous derision here - that brings it out (when almost always the trashers are coming from decades of healthy distrust of fundamentalist Judeo-Xian reactionism, exhibit a: intelligent design).

Naturally, I blame Kenan

But now he's okay

Yet to be honest, I think as any sort of loosely-defined "community," ilx still has massive problems even conceiving of a way to openly discuss religion/spirituality without judgment. It's almost like the jerking of the knees begin before the dissenting words can even be typed, almost as if out of insecurity to not be seen as "one of them crazies"

I remember during my last extended stay, I had a protracted discussion on some terrorist-oriented thread where I vouched that, no, the young men turning to Jihad are NOT necessarily all economically disenfranchised or frustrated or jealous of Western life. That many are honest and capable of being completely sincere in their specific faith of what-here-is-termed "fundamentalist" Islam.

The thought of modern people actually even *believing* in something so silly/primitive as religion! How ludicrous! And how inconceivable to condescending liberals. It must be for economic reasons alone; since I view the world through the lens of class struggle, so must they...

Oh my goodness I just wanted a friendly roundtable!

ok dude but "oh you just think that cause hate brown people" is really lazy (hi, i thought the english, pale-faced Pagan i knew in college was a kook, too). humor me and pretend that's not ever a possible issue and start reasoning from there.

I think that Islamic one was Oct? Nov? 2006. It was followed by a real phone conversation with Ethan. Which was funny.

So anyway yes, I'm not surprised if sock puppets want to have it in for anything I type now. Hope this series of posts was good enough for you jhoshea - maybe you'll choose to read a majority of them

x-post

so yah, late to thread and everything but i have to say that i find karma a very appealing prospect. it even makes some sense. hit me and i'll hit you back! ha! go on with your developed conversation, i'm just throwin my 2 cents.

Granny: I don't even understand your post since you're trying to explain my belief in karma as a desire to be "unique amongst Westerners," - and for you to say that to anyone who was brought up with these doctrines culturally it's just kind of hilarious. I don't think you "hate brown people," it's more like I don't think you want to have any sort of discussion with a religionist in the first place when you start out by calling everyone who might be one a "kook"

hit and get hit back. possible and possibly even probable. but there's nothin metaphysical about it.

And I can't believe I am now engaging in dialogue with a puppet of socks. So I guess we've already had this discussion I'll spare you

ilx still has massive problems even conceiving of a way to openly discuss religion/spirituality without judgment

Yeah. Clearly the solution to that is to turn every thread you have ever posted on into being about spirituality and religion, and then get super butthurt when people call you a fruitcake.

Yes, it's true -- some of us think you're a bit cakey in the fruit department, but it would seem less so with more dispassionate beatific smiling and less "ok guess what, this conversation is now going to be a calm, sober discussion of how I am not crazy."

I don't even understand your post since you're trying to explain my belief in karma as a desire to be "unique amongst Westerners,"

haha it's because i thought you were white for some reason! still, corollary to what kenan said, it seems like you like shouting from the rooftops about your beliefs at any and every opportunity. "lookit me! i'm not part of the hivemind!". could just be on my end, the way i'm reading it.

Wake up kids
We've got the dreamers disease
Age 14 we got you down on your knees
So polite, you're busy still saying please
Fri - enemies, who when you're down ain't your friend
Every night we smash their Mercedes - Benz
First we run and then we laugh till we cry
But when the night is falling
And you cannot find the light
If you feel your dream is dying
Hold tight
You've got the music in you
Don't let go
You've got the music in you
One dance left
This world is gonna pull through
Don't give up
You've got a reason to live
Can't forget you only get what you give
Four a. m. we ran a miracle mile
Were flat broke but hey we do it in style
The bad rich
God's flying in for your trial

This whole damn world can fall apart
You'll be ok follow your heart
You're in harms way
I'm right behind
Now say youre mine

Fly high
What's real can't die
You only get what you give
Just dont be afraid to leave
Health insurance rip off lying FDA big bankers buying
Fake computer crashes dining
Cloning while they're multiplying
Fashion mag shoots
With the aid of 8 dust brothers Beck, Hanson
Courtney Love and Marilyn Manson
You're all fakes
Run to your mansions
Come around
We'll kick your ass in!
Don't let go
One dance left

{unsaid lyrics from liner}
Championed by a soulless media misleading
People unaware they're bleeding
No one with a brain is believing
It's so sad you lost the meaning
Never knew it anyway
Human natures so predictable
I'm a fool to do your dirty work whoa, whoa

> every thread you have ever posted on

Ha! You surely mean every thread where *YOU'VE* ever *first* posted on even remotely about said topic that I've unfortunately come on to later. I think you're seriously underestimating my posting quotient back in the day dude ...in oldest ilx, I was some sad fixture in the lower statscock. And aside from the recent ancient greek vs. rome thread i've never "changed" one that wasn't about religion into one that was, but nice try.

Having people here think I'm a bit cakey or fruity or meaty because I'm over-zealously sticking up for a metaphysical (or any religious) POV that many are collectively pissing on- even if its the very possibility of something alternative - is not some sort of deterrent (and I could say proving my point but then you'd charge me with staged provocateur, or maybe you already are whatever) but really I didn't need to justify or rationalize (pun intended) my views in the first place. Either a place is welcoming of a plurality of voices or it isn't, and in this particular case on this specific topic ilx never has been; I'm certainly not the only person who feels this way. To say I'm trying to proselytize with *my* beliefs is ridiculous - see the terrorist/Jihad thread.

I guess "butt hurt" is a new ilx term coined in my absence to describe a melodramatic mixture of aggrieved, indignant pissyness, but I'm having fun with all my recent posts (and thought that would be obv)! Since it's ilx and who takes this shit seriously anymore? (rhetorical, don't answer)

I do, in a way. :(

Again, I really wish Dee could come back from the ilx dead and answer whether she thought it was a den of progressive, tolerant, open-minded discussion about religion. Kenan I thought Julia had said you'd reformed. Well that's what she had written me anyway. A lapsed rationalist!

http://i.imgur.com/lRlWzBC.gif

so true xxx

Actions immediately preceded by the words "hold my beer and watch this" are not exactly the sort of cosmic retribution one would ideally wish for, but they'll probably have to do.