Zimbawabae and Democracy(sp)

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Long Term Democratic Soultions that will allow the will fo the people to be expressed

anthony, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Rhetorical question, no?

Stuart, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

not really

anthony, Sunday, 17 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Disappointed with South Africa and Mbeki both in recognising the evidently fraudulent election, and then blessing Mugabe’s reappointment by attending the inauguration.

stevo, Monday, 18 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

....although he has since called for Mugabe to form a coalition government with the opposition. I wonder if S. Africa's reaction would've been different if Mandela was still in charge?

MarkH, Tuesday, 19 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

isn't some of the thing the question of EFFECTIVE comment here: blair and bush say YAH BOO CHEATING! mugabe says FUCK OFF WHITEY WE ALL KNOW YOUR GAME, end of discussion. Mbeki says WELL DONE ALL BUT ACTUALLY YOU SHOULD FORM A COALITION W.YOUR ENEMY = (possibly) far more stinging and effective rebuke to MUGABE himself. Also don't assume that eg Blair and Mbeki weren't on the phone to each other beforehand saying "ok you do hard soft I'll do hard cop."

During Bush election debacle, Zimbabwe publicly offered to send advisers and observers over to America, to see that fair play triumphed. The offer was spurned w.scorn.

mark s, Tuesday, 19 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

four months pass...
I am an Irishman We have gone beyond the racist definitions of my people, by our works and our perseverance, the native people of the African continent should realise that the British gave more than they took, they have opened a world to us. We should embrace this, a trans-national, non-racist, world of equal opportunity. The Zimbabwe govt are RACISTS, their petty racism will doom much of my fellow humans in Africa. Be a part of the world, not apart of. DANM MUGABE , HE IS A RACIST AND A MARXIST. Long live freedom of choice, opportunity and desire. Long live the intended nation of Zimbabwe, Long live Africa, an Africa in the World, an equal partner in Democracy

John Davis, Monday, 12 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm still failing to understand a lot of the racism cries that are directed at Zimbabwe's land-reclamation program. Colonization involves (a) occupying land, and (b) governing it from abroad by dint of force -- governmental independence isn't really an end to colonialism without item (a) being taken care of as well. ("Hahaha okay it's your country now even though you don't own much of it.")

nabisco, Monday, 12 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fair enough, but I think the way it's being done is doing nothing more or less than murdering the country. Land redistribution has ALWAYS been on the agenda, and there have been talks and talks about talks on the subject in the past. The fact that the ZANU-PF have decided to make it look as though they are doing something for the country (by opening the job up to the "war vets") has made the whole thing very violent. Mugabe's actions make more sense if you forget about race and look at him as incompetent and insane and cronyist.

Sam, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(amusingly they are reporting that they have taken over farms that they have not - my uncle's is one of these propaganda jobs - the labourers are keeping the settlers out)

Sam, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

but nabisco, you are forgetting that it was the ancestors of the current white farmers that did the occupying. It's hardly fair to punish somebody for something their grand- or great- grandparents did, is it? If you use the argument that it is fair to do that, then the current black occupants of Zimbabwe don't deserve to be there either, coz they drove out the Bushmen some 150 years prior to British colonization.

MarkH, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Khoisan, Mark, please. :-)

Sam, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

are you implying I'm using outmoded terms to discuss the current situation in Rhodesia or something?

MarkH, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

t's hardly fair to punish somebody for something their grand- or great- grandparents did, is it?

So says modern received wisdom. The more I think about it, the more I'm not sure this stands up. This is the crux of so many post- colonial matters and the more I think about it the more my head hurts.

N., Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Has any farm that has been *reclaimed* been maintained in running order by the thugs? Have they continued to generate wealth, provide education and employment etc?

Dr. C, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Dr. C and Sam: I'm certainly not arguing that the program's been effectively or justly or helpfully administered (has anything of Mugabe's been effectively or justly or helpfully done?), but rather -- as you said, Sam -- that it's not an issue of racism. It's a fundamentally sound idea being executed in the worst possible way.

Mark: how exactly are white farmers "punished" for the misdeeds of their ancestors in land reclamation? They lose land they inherited in the first place? It seems to me that they're still, in sum, benefitting from the "misdeeds" -- they lose the land but they're still sitting on years and years of wealth generated by it, which is a damn sight better than they'd have had their families never owned the land in the first place. Is it fair to "punish" them for their ancestors' actions -- surely it's as fair as it is for them to actively benefit from them? Surely it's as fair as it is for Africans to be "punished" for the military losses of their ancestors?

As for who "deserves" the land it's not entirely a "who was there first" argument -- more that it's radically unworkable to have a country where almost all the productive arable land is owned by a miniscule post-colonial minority, a structure that basically maintins the colonial structure of siphoning all generated wealth out of the hands of the nation's populous. Even if we imagine the landowners being native to the Zimbabwe it's an unworkable model -- the fact that it's still essentially colonial ownership only highlights the problems with it.

nabisco, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree that it's equally fair for people to benefit/suffer from what happened to their ancestors, Nabisco. But the question is, is equal fairness enough to justify altering the status quo? This is where the line between compensation for historical wrongdoings and eye-for-an- eye justice gets worryingly blurred for me. (The status quo clearly needs altering on economic grounds, but that's a different question from the handling of ancestral misdeeds)

Tom, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That's really Mugabe's problem, Tom: his sort of big-takeover language is maybe stirring and inspirational to some but it's obviously not the way to go about land reapportionment if one's shooting for long-term peace and development. Anyone truly thinking of the long term would have implemented a slow economic solution: say, forcing the gradual sharing of land allotments with small farmers on terms beneficial to the farmers, and some sort of gradual pay-off toward a vague compensation for the transition. Full-scale reclamation is a recipe for (a) a whole lot of wealth fleeing, and (b) a whole lot of land sitting crapped-out and useless with a few folks eeking a subsistence living off of them; I certainly don't trust Mugabe's ability to kick-start workable communical agriculture and large-scale production. Thankfully I think international attention is stable enough that he can't wander this project off into a Khmer Rouge type of direction.

nabisco, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

whoops

Kris, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)


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