TS: Gordon Brown vs James Callaghan

I have called you here today with the express purpose of stating that there will be no vote from me at this time.

Brown over Callaghan any time

"In Place of Strife" anyone?

need to give brown more of a chance to fuck everything up, ask again when the bodies are rotting in the streets etc.

"We pushed the Gas Chamber Bill through by nine votes, not because we support it but we felt that Herr Hitler needed our support at this difficult time."

Callaghan definitely. It is very easy to say that Labour lost the 1979 elections because lots of people were on strike and the results of the strikes were ruining the country. But you have to ask the question....why were the people on strike in the first place? Because of the illiberable and unreasonable actions of their employers - hardly Callaghan's fault. It is hard to know what he could have done to prevent it. The fall-out from this misunderstanding of the situation by the general public, and the media's purposeful manipulation of it was obv the following two decades (well, almost) of Tory rule where obv nothing was going to get better for working people. But, with the exception of the minimum wage, none of the benefits to workers since 1997 have come about coz of Nu Labour, but through legislation at the European level. Brown took the credit for prudent economic decisions made by his predecessor, Clarke, easily the best Chancellor of the Tory years. Everything else about him sucks, both in terms of politics and personality.

^^^ Is this a joke?

I'd still have to give it Callaghan anyway. Old right-wing Labour = Trotsykite Fucking Vanguard Nu-Labour. Also not a dour Presbyterian life-hating twat, to the best of my recollection.

Sorry, but Callaghan's behaviour over "In Place of Strife" beats anything Brown's ever done - that's where your two decades of Tory rule comes from

Brown took the credit for prudent economic decisions made by his predecessor, Clarke, easily the best Chancellor of the Tory years

A bit like praising Fred West for being less misogynistic than Peter Sutcliffe

You're arguing with a dude who said But you have to ask the question....why were the people on strike in the first place? Because of the illiberable and unreasonable actions of their employers - hardly Callaghan's fault. lololololololololol

no it's not a joke and the reason is because I am not a political hack like a lot of the narrow minded retarded idiots on this board who follow one party religiously and don't bother using their brains and judging each and every aspect of policy on it's own merits! I am sick and tired of the way a lot of people on these boards not only do that but also adopt this scathing, seering, patronising tone towards the people who post their opinions to the Have Your Say columns of newspaper websites as if to say "I am much, much better informed and educated than you, so I am going to point and laugh at you as if to emphasise my superiority".

as if to say "I am much, much better informed and educated than you, so I am going to point and laugh at you as if to emphasise my superiority".

As if to say?

alright Noodle Vague if you're so fucking clever actually bother to engage with me and tell me why you think that is so ridiculous rather than just engaging me in that puerile and reactionary fashion!!!

I point and laugh at Have Your Say comments mostly because it's the only defence against the SHEER BLIND FEAR that chokes me whenever I consider this is what a sizeable proportion of the British public actually think.

no wonder ordinary everyday people are put off politics if this is the kind of reaction they get if they do! The political classes are very keen on saying "Why is everyone so apathetic???" It's not that they're apathetic, it's that every time they do stick their heads above the parapet and express their opinions, the political hacks adopt this sneering, snide "There, there, you're not as clever as us, so why should we listen to anything you say?" type of attitude.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, what political hacks? Who is a political hack here? Are you being serious here? Is this a joke?

Most of the workers on strike during the Winter of Discontent were public sector employees. Callaghan was effectively their employer.

When I'm sneering and snarky and generally nasty on threads like this, it's because I care. Care to the point of choking back great impotent gulps of rage. That doesn't really excuse being rude, I know. Put it down to the hurly-burly of political debate, or me being a cunt, or whatever. Probably best to ignore me in these circumstances - I don't have the patience or the tolerance to reason with Rightist points of view most of the time. Cos I believe that kind of thinking is the enemy of civilization, at best a semblance of reason papering over self-interest, hatred of democracy and ultimately pig ignorant destruction of What Life Could Be.

Like I said, not an excuse. But this is who I am, now.

Okay I'll bite:

illiberable and unreasonable actions of their employers - hardly Callaghan's fault

Surely the strikes that did the most damage to Labour's reputation were over public sector pay, where the "illiberal and unreasonable" employers were, erm, Jim Callaghan's government.

(xpost)

And FWIW, I think the point of Political Hacks is to keep "ordinary everyday people", whoever they might be, ignorant and apathetic. Party Politics isn't even the beginning of politics, tho it might like to be the end of it.

This the same Callaghan who blocked attempts FROM THE LEFT OF THE LABOUR PARTY to reform Trade Unions and make them more democratic, in order to hold build his own powerbase among the right-wing cunt section of the Trade Union movement

I guess the thing is I'm not even shocked that senior politicians cheat as often as possible to cling onto power Tom. This is what they jokingly call "building a coalition" or something. I can't exactly remember how strongly Blair promised to look at Proportional Representation, but that all went very quiet once he was in Parliament with a fuck-off majority. I kinda blame that on us staring down the barrels of a Tory government with another fuck-off majority now.

I am sick and tired of the way a lot of people on these boards not only do that but also adopt this scathing, seering, patronising tone towards the people who post their opinions to the Have Your Say columns of newspaper websites as if to say "I am much, much better informed and educated than you, so I am going to point and laugh at you as if to emphasise my superiority".

are we talking about the same HYS? the one that's populated by freaky nazis who are certainly not backward in coming forward

See when you call them nazis you hurt their feelings.

Then they come round your house and put petrol through the letterbox.

And FWIW, I think the point of Political Hacks is to keep "ordinary everyday people", whoever they might be, ignorant and apathetic. Party Politics isn't even the beginning of politics, tho it might like to be the end of it.

OK, so maybe I was being a little unreasonable by maintaining that ILX was populated by political hacks, but I have bad, shuddering memories of the days when I was prepared to start political threads myself. I remember starting one when I posited that we should abolish political parties and have every candidate compelled by legislation to stand as an independent and have everyone in parliament vote on that basis. I rememeber another thread I started when I proposed deciding issues by referenda. One of the most troubling moments I experienced, not just here but in discussions with work colleagues, was when I heard people saying "You don't seriously believe that members of the GENERAL PUBLIC should have the power to decide policy do you???!!!" and I thought "Er, yes, I do for that is *true* democracy!" I have a number of problems with that reaction. One is simply that we are all members of that General Public, so by making the comment we are effectively slagging off ourselves. Secondly, I can see how people might regard themselves as being superior to most of that same General Public, which might compel them to use the argument, which comes across, to me, as some what snobbish, and I have an instant, almost knee-jerk reaction towards snobbery.

I think Callaghan can still be exonerated. He may have ultimately been resposnsible for public sector pay, but the individual bosses still held the individual purse-strings, no? They were still presumably choosing to give themselves large pay rises while keeping the entry-level workers in penury.

You're presuming a hell of a lot there

Senior Civil Servants may have lots of ways of screwing a few bob out of the taxpayer, but I don't think they award their own pay rises.

you sure about that? And if so, how?

You do realise we'd still be hanging people under your "true democracy"? God knows what other atrocities would be going on as well.

I don't think we would actually, I think you are scaremongering. It's not likely to happen in our lifetime, perhaps ever.

Has there ever been a time in the last 40 years when the British public has not been in favour of capital punishment?

so what you are basically saying is that there is a left wing elite, of which you are a part, which, if it ran the country, would make everything hunky-dory?

Callaghan lost the election that led to 18 years of Tory rule that profoundly changed the socio-economic fabric of the country. Brown has yet to do that so the jury's out.

so what you are basically saying is that there is a left wing elite, of which you are a part

Exsqueeze me?

Looks like Grandpoint Genie is pointing facetiously (incorrectly) at Tom D the way that Tom D pointed facetiously (incorrectly) over here!

Over where?

In this direction

Can't see you from here. Stand up and wave.

Yes, you sir. The man with the blue bow-tie.

That's me. My question is "why do you like sucking cocks so much?"

"I did not inhale"

so what you are basically saying is that there is a left wing elite, of which you are a part, which, if it ran the country, would make everything hunky-dory?

ILX mods, step up to the plate

What are you, some kind of undemocratic anti-hanging nazi or something?

How long will it be before 42 days isn't long enough? It feels like we are on the edge of a precipice and we either stay a free society or we go the same way as America or Stalinist Russia

angry man

Recommended by 310 people

it's sad but true. in my opinion criminals ar islamifying britain because of thir so-called 'humanr ight'. soon we will vote bnp. lets do what the french do and all strike!!!

English_forever, England

Recommended by 178 people

i want a so-called 'humanr ight'

Give that man power over policy-making

^^^ That dude should have 2 votes.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2005/03/james_callaghan.html

^^ this guy is hard to read. campaigned for labour in '79 and '83; stands up for old labour and callaghan in this post; makes the well-established point that labour pre-empted various 'thatcherite' policies to attempt to avoid mass unemployment and hyperinflation; but also says that socialism (he means state ownership of industry, not quite the same thing but anyway) was a terrible mistake...

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/LeboviciAB84/HarryHillsmallerrordiffusion.gif

Weird how Callaghan has been totally airbrushed out of political history. Younger people who haven't been told/actually bothered to find out who he was would just be forgiven for attributing the mistakes of the late 70s to a nebulous, unspecified 'Labour'. Like it jumped from Wilson to Thatcher.

Future generations may feel the same about John Major, and possibly Gordon Brown as well. Brown's worst fear is not that he goes down in history as Labour's worst Prime Minister, but that people forget he was Prime Minister at all.