what is most objectionable of obama's recent positions

voted FISA

His record with muslim supporters (not speaking @ mosques, etc)

this is bullshit too

did you see he told keith ellison not to campaign for him??

okay that sucks

i think the muslim thing is bullshit also, although im willing to believe he still plans on doing something to apologize for that??

The issues with individual Muslim supporters would actually bother me a ton, if there were any real sense that they were a coordinated top-down thing, and not a collection of really poor judgment calls at the bottom end of the campaign machine.

that's nothing, have you seen his position on this?

you almost got me, lol

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/us/politics/24muslim.html?bl&ex=1214452800&en=2188136bb97e5775&ei=5087%0A

While the senator has visited churches and synagogues, he has yet to appear at a single mosque. Muslim and Arab-American organizations have tried repeatedly to arrange meetings with Mr. Obama, but officials with those groups say their invitations — unlike those of their Jewish and Christian counterparts — have been ignored.

How many positions do you think Obama knows?

Aides to Mr. Obama denied that he had kept his Muslim supporters at arm’s length. They cited statements in which he had spoken inclusively about American Islam and a radio advertisement he recorded for the recent campaign of Representative Andre Carson, Democrat of Indiana, who this spring became the second Muslim elected to Congress.

^^^ wait i missed this

Yeah, this was released last week.

no NBA finals position, no credibility

i voted other since he thinks tha carter III is actually a classic

Where's ethanol? I guess that isn't recent enough.

"AMERICA IS A CENTER RIGHT COUNTRY!!!" is the popular opinion, and so Obama is positioning himself within this accepted mantra.

Ethanol is fucking dumb as hell, though. My god what a stupid position to take.

"AMERICA IS A CENTER RIGHT COUNTRY!!!" is the popular opinion, and so Obama is positioning himself within this accepted mantra.

-- burt_stanton, Thursday, June 26, 2008 2:21 PM (39 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

extremely reductive

but thanks for the 'truth' bomb

To be fair, Presidential candidates always move to the center once they've clinched their party's nomination, don't they?

honest question, not baiting or anything: have any other presidential candidates in the last couple elections ever appeared at mosques or met with Muslim organizations during their campaign? I really have no idea and now I'm kinda curious.

it's the "new politics"

What do you mean it's extremely reductive? What do you think Obama is doing here? He's positioned himself as staunchly anti-regulation and very pro-Bush on certain measures. He's like Clinton part 2, a Reaganite in Democrat's clothing.

and chances are he's doing it because he wants to be electable; America is Center Right, etc. etc. It's the phrase you keep hearing over and over.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_26_118/ai_79127824

xp: lol hay guyz its daria to remind us that hillary "violent video games are the only threat to america bigger than flagburning" clinton wouldnt be pandering like obama

you really expect him to speak at a Mosque when 20% of the american people think he's a muslim?

an attack on hillary =/ logical defense of obama

i was pretty disappointed about FISA and campaign finance

obama has always been relatively middle of the road on certain measures but there hasn't actually been much in the way of concrete 'moves to the middle'. Responding to a couple of supreme court decisions barely counts.

as usual he's speaking to the middle but still has pretty left-leaning policy positions, although he does tend to work in a pragmatic framework - not pragmatism in the sense of compromising principles (usually) but pragmatism in the sense of "what will get the best results," judging primarily by the advisors hes chosen throughout the campaign

notice how i'm not defending obama

i was pretty disappointed about FISA and campaign finance

-- daria-g, Thursday, June 26, 2008 2:28 PM (4 seconds ago) Bookmark Link

lol surely positions hrc would have stood up to!

anyway, for me personally that Rev. Wright thing is the worst, but objectively speaking i'd say FISA which is pretty despicable any way you slice it.

i was actually going to praise hillary on the general election thread as someone who was willing to actually defend liberal principles in unambiguous language. she's done her share of centrist bullshit but during the debates i felt proud to see a democrat actually stand up for democratic beliefs instead of vague independent-courting obamaisms

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_26_118/ai_79127824

-- and what, Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:26 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

thanks for the link, but i was asking if mosques were a typical tourstop for campaigning candidates, sitting president directly after 9/11 is kind of a different deal.

ethan, that's how i feel about it. i don't want democrats to sound like republicans.

the scotus thing re: death penalty bothers me. i think obama was asked about it & had to response, i don't know what else could have been said but maybe something. i have a lot i could complain about re: kerry in 2004 but he took the death penalty out of the dem. party platform and i completely agree 100%

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0gzTaO49Wz6Pc/340x.jpg
chris dodd at umayad mosque <3 <3

lol, the return of daria

kerry supported capital punishment, though yeah he didn't issue bullshit statements like the obama thing

xp stfu gabbneb

by the way, I don't see any press to the effect of other candidates visiting mosques, but perhaps such visits are just run of the mill stops on occasion and don't get much press - I don't know. it seems like a silly issue to be honest. not that relations w/muslims in the US aren't important but insisting that he visit a mosque, i don't know why that matters in particular.

yeah, i agree, i was just curious about the background/points of comparison.

American Muslims have experienced a political awakening in the years since Sept. 11, 2001. Before the attacks, Muslim political leadership in the United States was dominated by well-heeled South Asian and Arab immigrants, whose communities account for a majority of the nation's Muslims. (Another 20 percent are estimated to be African-American.) The number of American Muslims remains in dispute as the Census Bureau does not collect data on religious orientation; most estimates range from 2.35 million to 6 million.

A coalition of immigrant Muslim groups endorsed George W. Bush in his 2000 campaign, only to find themselves ignored by Bush administration officials as their communities were rocked by the carrying out of the USA Patriot Act, the detention and deportation of Muslim immigrants and other security measures after Sept. 11.

As a result, Muslim organizations began mobilizing supporters across the country to register to vote and run for local offices, and political action committees started tracking registered Muslim voters. The character of Muslim political organizations also began to change.

"We moved away from political leadership primarily by doctors, lawyers and elite professionals to real savvy grass-roots operatives," said Mahdi Bray, executive director of the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation, a political group in Washington. "We went back to the base."

In 2006, the Virginia Muslim Political Action Committee arranged for 53 Muslim cabdrivers to skip their shifts at Dulles International Airport in Northern Virginia to transport voters to the polls for the midterm election. Of an estimated 60,000 registered Muslim voters in the state, 86 percent turned out and voted overwhelmingly for Jim Webb, a Democrat running for the Senate who subsequently won the election, according to data collected by the committee.

but insisting that he visit a mosque, i don't know why that matters in particular

Chain emailers need a good jpeg of Obama with a star & crescent symbol.

http://www.r8ny.com/blog/jerry_skurnik/muslim_voter_turnout.html

i was actually going to praise hillary on the general election thread as someone who was willing to actually defend liberal principles in unambiguous language. she's done her share of centrist bullshit but during the debates i felt proud to see a democrat actually stand up for democratic beliefs instead of vague independent-courting obamaisms

-- and what, Thursday, June 26, 2008 2:30 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

thats the thing is i dont really feel like his independent-courting obamaisms are particularly vague - if anything treating the opposition w/ respect is pretty much the extent of it, and if obama had come across as a edwards-style bomb throwing liberal i guarantee hillz would have been the candidate of reasoned Middle of the Road debate

i dont think you have to be smarmy faux-populist to be upfront and defend liberal principles honestly. the candidate of change/we can all come together stuff has never inspired me, and part of my support is that i'm hoping he'll cut that shit out and get down to business once elected

I don't want to get in an argument about the issues, but I'd like to bring to the table that, as a life-long Democrat who believes in both gun rights and the death penalty, there are a lot of us out there who hold those values.

can i ask you why you're a lifelong democrat who believes in the death penalty?

Greenwald, trying one more time:

Recall that James Comey testified last year that what he and other DOJ officials learned in 2004 about Bush's spying activities for the several years prior was so extreme, so unconscionable, so patently illegal that they all -- including even John Ashcroft -- threatened to resign en masse unless it stopped immediately. We still have no idea what those spying activities were. We know, though, that even the right-wing DOJ ideologues who approved of the illegal "Terrorist Surveillance Programs" that we know about found those activities indisputably illegal and wrong. But Barack Obama and the Democratic-led Congress will today enact a bill to immunize all of that, to protect the lawbreakers who were responsible.

As I've said many times before, there are clear differences between an Obama and McCain presidency. Denying that is just as irrational as those for whom the only political rule is Thou Shalt Not Speak Ill of Obama.

But it's equally clear that politicians like Obama are unable within the prevailing political establishment to do much to stop the continued growth of the lawless surveillance state and our two-tiered system of justice, even if they wanted to stop it, even if they were willing to expend political capital to take a stand against it. And Obama -- with his support for this wretched assault on the Constitution and the rule of law -- is demonstrating that, contrary to his many prior statements, these issues are anything but a priority for him (Larry Lessig: Obama aides say "the FISA compromise in the bill was a good one"). Differences between Republican and Democrats exist and are important in many cases, but those differences are often dwarfed by the differences between those entrenched in and dependent upon the Washington Establishment and those -- the vast, vast majority of American citizens -- who are not.

I didn't realize "killing Iranians" was a foreign policy goal.

that Greenwald excerpt explains why I'd rather see Obama as president, but please don't count on me to vote for him (esp in NY).

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/09/obama_moves_to_the_populist/

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/grim_proving_ground_for_obamas_housing_policy/?page=full

-- and what, Wednesday, July 9, 2008 10:22 AM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Link

this article is interesting, but ultimately is more about valerie jarrett than obama. the political context he was coming up in was the years of cabrini green and robert taylors, where high-density, purely-public housing had utterly failed and mixed income efforts were seen as the best way to change things in cities pretty much across the board. im extremely critical of the way public housing has been dealt with in chicago but its not like there are easy answers either ...

not saying that obama is somehow guilt free in this at all btw

on another note, FISA passed, obama voted yes, clinton & reid voted no, RIP

well it's not like I was going to bother to vote either

I'M A FAG AND OBAMA'S POSITIONS ARE FINE WITH ME LET'S MOVE ON KTHNKX
-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, July 8, 2008 11:39 PM

I'm still recovering that a few of the gays on the ILX gays thread are not only in a relationship, but are in fact married.

so was the Leahy-Dodd amendment thing added or struck down...

Three amendments were voted down, including that one; you can get the roll calls here:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/09/fisa_vote/

Democrats voting against removing immunity: Bayh - Carper - Conrad - Feinstein - Inouye - Johnson - Kohl - Landrieu - Lincoln - McCaskill - Mikulski - Nelson (FL) - Nelson (Neb.) - Pryor - Rockefeller - Salazar - Webb.

this is easily the most disgusting political expedience here. good for webb dropping out of the veep race so he could go ahead and vote the way he wanted.

:(

Mikulski why you brake heart

no wait that's backwards morbs

nevermind. he voted for all three amendments and then voted for cloture. that's basically what he said he would do.

I can't read today

Mikulski voted vs the SPECTER amendment, too

are there people who think that Senators' votes are matters of personal expression rather than constituent representation?

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Feingoldon_on_FISA_A_dark_hour_0709.html

do constituents actually know shit about fisa, gabbneb?

so Clinton talks hawkish national security all during the primaries and Obama pretends he's got Dodd's back on filibustering telco immunity

then when the chips are down, NOT being the nominee frees Clinton to vote correctly but Obama figures he can't vote against this fucked up bill and still be president

fuckshjkglkjfshglkjnfhknfkjnhkjln

are there people who think that Senators' votes are matters of personal expression rather than constituent representation?

There are people who think it's all motherfucking bullshit that often hasn't anything to do with either. And as deej implies, constituents usually don't know much of anything, being too busy holding on to their jobs etc.

"Recent" or not, Obama's position on raising the Pentagon budget, increasing the size of the Army and maintaining the imperial war machine at or above its current level is his most objectionable.

Gail Collins explains Obama's penguin problem.

she also identifies why gabbneb likes him: "if you look at the political fights he’s picked throughout his political career, the main theme is not any ideology. It’s that he hates stupidity."

That's a relatively fair article. It still doesn't assuage my disappointment in some of his positions but it's a reasonable explanation of them.

Another interpretation: "He hates politically stupid decisions."

Gail Collins is fucking terrible.

I was gonna link to that, Collins pretty much OTM (tho I think she glides over some other differences with HillRod, which are admittedly looking smaller every day).

"All About Compromise" sure wouldn't sell many t-shirts or draw Lincoln/Kennedy comparisons, huh?

Dems: DRAFT FEINGOLD

Feingold: Elect Obama, lol

tk: Feingold: Elect Obama-Bayh

yes, HE'S A POLITICIAN

I'm all for political realism, but the FISA bill? I can't get around that right now and I'm keeping my checkbook in my pocket for a while.

I just don't see why his support of the bill was politically necessary.

The only explanations I can see:

- It's a nod to conservatives that says he's willing to work with them.
- It's a reverse-blind intended to scare people into voting for him (ie, the whole "vote for Obama so he can control this awful, awful legislation bits flying around the news channels).

Since the second one is really, really stupid, I doubt that's it. My problem is that I don't think the first one is particularly smart, either.

apparently the Dems DON'T WANT TO LOOK WEAK ON NATIONAL SECURITY. It never occurs to the Dems to make the argument that a bill doesn't shore up national security. Letting the GOP define them perpetually is as weak as it gets.

Or

- Avoid having 10,000 television ads in the next three months saying "Obama voted against being able to see when terrorists are planning to blow up your mom". The thing is, they'll say this anyway.

Obama can always respond that McCain didn't even SHOW UP for the vote.

"Recent" or not, Obama's position on raising the Pentagon budget, increasing the size of the Army and maintaining the imperial war machine at or above its current level is his most objectionable.

This doesn't sound like a fair characterization of his position. I think he is realistic that budget cuts in the near term are going to be difficult to do, given its current over-stretched resources. Of course, pulling out of Iraq will save money in the medium-to-long term, as will Obama's stated desire to increase the role of the State Dept. and reduce the military's role in international affairs. But this will take time.

- Avoid having 10,000 television ads in the next three months saying "Obama voted against being able to see when terrorists are planning to blow up your mom". The thing is, they'll say this anyway.

-- Tracer Hand, Thursday, July 10, 2008 10:47 AM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

nah, what they're trying to say is that he has no principles and is flip-flopping on his promises, since they cant say he actually voted against it

YAH TRICK YAH

if HillRod was the nominee, their FISA votes are reversed -- anyone have any doubt?

such profiles in courage, those two

Um, dare I say Dr Morbius OTM?

(shudders)

But, yeah I do believe that these votes would have been the other way around if Clinton was the presumptive nominee.

ill go as far as to say that obama fans would be bigger jerks about it, had hillz won

but i dont think we expected him to fall on this

and is flip-flopping on his promises

which unfortunately in this case is 100% true

http://www.writeinbush.com/W_Forever.jpg

those disgruntled hillary supporters have gone too far

lol that site is great, follow some of the 'about us' links -- pretty transparent comedy trolling. hopefully it'll attract some good comment box fruit flies but as of a couple days ago i think everyone is in on the joek

http://i35.tinypic.com/eqzbmg.jpg

Theda Skocpol is the most otm person around, per usual

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/11/can_progressives_unite_or_will/

single issue people bashing Obama for moving to the middle or voting a certain way on FISA

"single issue people"

"moving to the middle"

"voting a certain way"

From the TPM link