Are you a different person when you speak a different language?

yes i am different when i speak arabic. so is my mom. language is how we shape thought, so it makes sense.

y

cuz thoughts are such a big part of our lives. if they're framed differently everything changes, including how we feel. i know because I DO OK

oh wait that was your answer...

This is a great thread topic :) I'm not bilingual, sadly, but I've always been fascinated watching those I know who are switch between one or another language when they need to express a thought that they can't in whichever one. A sentence in english, an exclamation or swear in Italian.

And then there's the gorgeous fluid language of sign - something I've learned in the past and always been so fascinated by. It is speech in a 3d space - you can elaborate in ways you just cannot in speech. That changes one's way of thinking completely.

right now I find it tricky to come up with specific examples of changes in my own self perception between fr & en , it's sort of heavy but there must be some , but I have a longstanding confilcted rapport with french liveley culture (like, sounds are up for grab for anyone , why they don't is beyond me - maybe it's a generational thing...nah it isn't) so i probably would be .ruledout. as a test subject in such a study , 2 mch of a freak, idk also i like to think that if mandarin ever catch up with english for the internet lulz content then this is where I'll be/ maybe the semantic web will reconcile with my first language and make me , huh, my Optimal Self

"I know I'm a better person when I'm singing."
-- Frank Sinatra

Nice quote!

Gone out drinking in very English areas two nights in a row after not drinking around much English for a couple of months. I had forgotten how threatening everyone is and how, when I'm speaking English and drinking in English, I just want to kick people's heads in, fight, guzzle beer, etc. And I also find myself oddly attracted to theme pubs. I'm glad it's all over and I can go back to being the only English person in the room.

language is how we shape thought

Language is a factor in how we think, but only a small one. Thoughts exist independently of language, wouldn't you say?

My first language is Dutch, but I guess I speak English almost as well as Flemish. (Yes, I realize it's not perfect, which says a lot about how well I speak proper Dutch.) To say I'm a different person, is not exactly true but I guess I'm a bit more chatty maybe? I should ask my husband maybe.

(I also understand a bit of French, German and Japanese. When I speak those languages I'm a bumbling idiot.)

Language is a factor in how we think, but only a small one. Thoughts exist independently of language, wouldn't you say?

Stuff like Steven Pinker and NLP theory would say it plays a very important role. Think about the number of different ways you can tell someone they have body odour for instance and how the way you say it can affect the way they think about themselves and towards you. The same works for your internal monologue. Obviously there are many factors that can affect the way you think, but language can be important, I'd say. But then again I fucked up my linguistics degree pretty badly.

not the same, but I think it strange that when british actors do an american accent they usually end up sounding more nasally. Kind of like they learned the accent from watching 3 stooges or bugs bunny.

I'm not bilingual, but I've noticed my voice changes when I speak different languages, it's higher and much girlier when I speak Spanish. And yeah, more assertive aswell.

When I speak Spanish I swear like a sailor but when I speak English I don't as much. Maybe this is because my Spanish isn't as good as my English right now, or maybe it's because the first expressions in Spanish I perfected were swears.

I think there is something to this. Japanese for example, is much more indirect than English. People often avoid saying exactly what they mean, and rely on others to interpret their meaning through eye contact, body language or a shared understanding of the "code". Some of that is certainly cultural, but the language itself reflects cultural norms. Similarly, there are different levels of formality in Japanese which don't exist in English, so the way that a person speaks to a either a "superior" or "subordinate" vary greatly, wheras in a lot of western business or social environments - it might not be immediately apparent who is in charge, since communication between people of different "ranks" can still be quite casual.

Fascinating thread! I've thought to myself at different throughout the process of learning Japanese how hard it was to "import" my personality into my second language. Eventually I found it to be impossible.

I wonder, though, if it's a Sapir-Whorf thing, like you guys are saying, or just cultural. I'm going to guess it leans heavily more towards the cultural, because I've noticed a lot more than just language changes when I switch to speaking Japanese--mannerisms, what I'm willing to ask people, etc.--when you switch languages, you 'move' into that language's culture and that's why, for example, Japanese people tend to feel more comfortable expressing themselves in English.

Also, and I'm not sure what this adds to the conversation, but I have one Japanese friend who speaks nearly perfect English, and he's the same rude bastard in either language.

Not quite the same as being a different person, but apparently I sound more girly and cutesy when I speak French or German, so I probably come across as a different person (given that I'm usually not either). I'm more girly in Japanese, as well, but then Japanese has a much more defined 'female speech' which you have to use just to maintain normal communication as a woman. By Japanese standards my j-speech isn't super feminine, but by my standards it kind of is. The thing is, though, that I'm not bicultural: I have to pay more attention when speaking Japanese, since I'm not completely fluent, so I 'become' someone who e.g. thinks more carefully before speaking.

I think there's probably an argument that bicultural frame-shifting is a parallel to what happens with people who speak both the standard form of their language and a distinct dialect, as with a Baseldytsch-speaking Swiss German who also speaks Hochdeutsch in official contexts (or someone from Kagoshima who also speaks hyōjungo): is this called diglossia? That the two (or more) ways of speaking you have correspond to different situations, and therefore get tied up in your behaviour in those situations, the reactions you have to those situation, etc.

I don't think I have a different personality when I switch between En + Hebrew. But then again, I generally do so much codeswitching already, that I probably speak a hybrid language (what they used to call Yinglish (Yiddish+Eng, probably, plus Hebrew).

Actually, thinking about it as I write, I think being able to use Yiddish+Hebrew in my speech lets me be much more exact when making distinctions and arguments. But I'm not sure vagueness is a meter of personality.

Yes

I am a different person when I speak English in different contexts, by this meaning of "a different person".

I never felt like a different person when I spoke ASL regularly, but I did feel differently abled, since there were some things I couldn't easily express, and I didn't have whatever way with words I normally have. So I felt less glittery, or something.

There are a lot of different ways to be bilingual, and most folks who would describe themselves as bilingual use the languages in distinct situations -- so this study's authors are dumb if they infer that language itself has any more direct effect on personality than, say, a work uniform -- both are mere tools related to (alienating) work. If English is never used in speaking to people you love, you will treat it differently than you do Spanish -- but it's you doing something to the language, and not vice versa. (and then you're not as bilingual as you think.)

Languages have different strengths and weaknesses, obviously, and methods of teaching languages have built-in biases, so when you're working on learning a language you often find yourself for want of experience and vocabulary and in the interests of comprehensibility expressing things in a different (more direct and cliched, or whatever) manner than you'd want to -- but you can work through that if you stick with it. Took me about ten years to be able to talk about abstract thought in German without sounding like a graduate student in philosophy, but I think I'm there now.

Baseldyytsch isn't a great example for two reasons: it's far enough removed from High German (and other forms of Swiss German, actually) that it would probably be considered a different language if it had a written form (and note the shockingly high levels of functional illiteracy among "German" Swiss adults), and because, in my experience, most Basler who switch to High German do so with the intention of speaking to an idiot foreigner slowly enough to be understood, and I have found that customer service people who do that in response to my Austrian-accented German are best avoided.

i've only had one opportunity to use my ostensible second language, speaking french in quebec, and it was mostly an exercise in abasement. which i don't think is a bad experience -- being thankful when anyone understands anything you say, and vice versa -- but i'm not sure it had much to do with my personality. i mean, apart from learning that i'll abase myself when convenience dictates.

I'm a firm believer that language structures consciousness, so this makes total sense to me.

My husband is bilingual and I swear he makes people laugh more with his stories when they're in Spanish rather than English.

I think I'm more direct (assertive?) when I speak Spanish, but the directness of the language encourages that. It helped my communication/confidence massively when a Spanish teacher told me that it was okay to say "open the door, please" in Spanish (as opposed to something more like "would you mind opening the door for me, please, if it's not too much trouble?") and it wouldn't sound rude. A revelation.

In short, yes. When I speak German I'm a lot more direct, less subtle, less... kind, perhaps. As mentioned by many others, the relative restrictions/depths of the languages you speak will inevitably have a knmock-on effect on how you frame your thoughts and, as a consequence, your actions and others' perceptions of you.

English seems to have a lot more scope for nuance, which I use freely and with much enthusiasm; I kind of miss that freedom when I'm speaking German, but by the same token I enjoy not feeling obliged to - or rather, feeling obliged not to - beat around the bush!

so the way that a person speaks to a either a "superior" or "subordinate" vary greatly

How do Japanese people speak to subordinates? Can you give examples? This is fascinating.

Personally, my Italian has become so bad that basically I become quiet and timid whenever I have to speak it, and shy away from entering proper discussions. I don't think that's the point of this thread, though. I also can't make jokes in foreign languages, which obviously makes a big difference.

I become quiet and timid whenever I have to speak it

i think this can be true for a lot of people speaking a language they don't feel confident in. they become a shy, tentative - perhaps sweeter? - version of themselves.

when i speak french, the lovely emma b says i sound like "a little boy". i also do a lot of "bof" and shoulder shrugging, it is almost impossible not to.

so the way that a person speaks to a either a "superior" or "subordinate" vary greatly

What happens in (say, workplace) situations where your relative position on the ladder is ambiguous? Or are Japanese workplaces structured so that this never happens?

(For example, if you are new in a "skilled" position, does that make it expected for you to talk down to the guy who's been there 30 years moving stuff around and knows exactly how everything and everyone works around the place?)

I would love to speak another language well enough that my different personality was based on direct translations not existing or being unidiomatic, rather than just not knowing the words.

Charlie's point has much more to do with culture than language -- note that Austrians and Swiss often find Northern Germans rude because of the directness with which they speak. (Direct as in "Open the door, please" as opposed to "could you please . . ." as well as "That's a bad idea" vs. "I'm not sure I agree".) This is not really a language difference for most Austrians, actually -- it's more a cultural sense of what sort of languge is appropriate to use in a given situation. Hell, the tendency of some English folks to avoid direct criticism of ideas (where "well, you could, but . . ." means "stupid idea -- try again" has given me trouble a couple of times, and I doubt many would seriously argue that my American English is a distinct language.

wouldn't identify personhood in this way: so no.

Point taken, TWU - my experience of speaking German for any length of time is confined almost exclusively to Hamburg/Berlin (although I have also been to Vienna), so you may be right. You could equally argue the same for different regions of the UK, cf "everyone's so rude in London" etc.

I agree with those who've said in the thread that they can be more direct in foreign languages. I can definitely relate to that. I wonder, though, if that has more to do with the fact that when speaking foreign, you have less feel for the weight of the words, and less ability to bullshit.

I too agree with TWU, there are cultural elements that shouldn't be confused with language.

I feel there is a tendency to overestimate the influence that language has one one's behaviour.

I'm a firm believer that language structures consciousness, so this makes total sense to me

I beg to differ. As I said upthread, language is one (small) factor in shaping thoughts. Culture has a far greater influence on language than vice versa, IMO.

http://www.challops.com/images/1.gif

I'd say the relationship between culture and language was largely symbiotic, but that, at root, it's language that informs culture rather than the other way around. Culture can't exist without language; culture is the result of communication, language is the tool of communication (be it spoken / written / codified 'linguistic' language or semiotic interpretations of other, more abstruse sign-systems thereof).

one of the curious things about speaking in a language you're not too good in OR if you're speaking with someone for whom your language is difficult:

many things you might have said are, you realize, simply not worth the effort

I'd say the relationship between chicken and eggs was largely symbiotic, but that, at root, it's eggs that create chickens rather than the other way around.

XXpost - you suggested that "language structures consciousness". I would argue that consciousness, thoughts, feelings, etc exist independently of language, i.e. you may not give expression to them without language but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

True, just because you can't find any evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I often feel like a different person depending on who I'm speaking to in my single language.

I'm a better person in C++

XXpost - you suggested that "language structures consciousness". I would argue that consciousness, thoughts, feelings, etc exist independently of language, i.e. you may not give expression to them without language but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

sure they exist, but when you try to express them you structure them, force them to fit into the mold of language, necessarily alter them. the rules of the language you use to do this definitely matter. I think you're a somewhat different person depending...

I'm an abrasive and annoying bitch, no matter what language I speak.

but a tad more abrasive when I talk Russkie

I often feel like a different person depending on who I'm speaking to in my single language.

Em saw this thread when she nipped into my office at lunchtime and said the exact same thing

sonderborg - as I said, it's a factor, just not the major one in my view. There's far more at work than just language when it comes to forming consciousness, collective or individual.

The short answer to the question of the thread title is no. There are minor differences in the way I might choose to express myself when I'm speaking a foreing language but essentially I'm the same bloke, for better or worse. For example, my sense of humour 'in foreign' is (pretty much) the same.

I don't feel like a different person when I speak Russian, but I wouldn't call myself fluent and definitely not "bicultural" (not a native speaker), so that may make a difference.

Language may shape thought, but I don't think there are things you can say in some languages that are impossible to say in others, you just have to say them in different ways...I think the main differences are cultural, and language is more a trivial player in terms of shaping how those differences are expressed than explaining why they exist at all.

i think this can be true for a lot of people speaking a language they don't feel confident in. they become a shy, tentative - perhaps sweeter? - version of themselves.

yeah totally. i remember when i was in a french immersion program a few years ago and we were all supposed to speak only french all the time but after a few days we spoke a little english at night and everyone was surprised at how crass and sweary i was lol

as my french has improved, even in the past two months via regular conversations, i'm much more myself when speaking it yaay :)

(For example, if you are new in a "skilled" position, does that make it expected for you to talk down to the guy who's been there 30 years moving stuff around and knows exactly how everything and everyone works around the place?)

Mistakes have been deadly. In 1975, two workers, Kunihiro Fukuda, 30, and Tomohiko Okabe, 27, were having a drink in a Tokyo bar, according to magazine reports at the time. Although Mr. Okabe was younger, he had entered the company first and had taken to addressing his colleague in a manner usually reserved for someone younger, calling him Fukuda instead of Fukuda-san. Mr. Fukuda protested. But Mr. Okabe said, ''What's wrong if a senior guy calls his junior in this way?'' Enraged, Mr. Fukuda grabbed his colleague by the neck and beat him to death, the magazines reported. (article)

this is a fascinating topic.
daniel can you explain more about what you think shapes consciousness to a greater degree than language? i can only imagine (ha) the simplest of thoughts (or rather, feelings) being possible without language.

As I said above, ideas, surely thoughts, ideas etc exist even if you don't give them expression.

I dunno, I've just been reading Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct. He gives numerous examples of people who've lost the power of speech, or who never had language in the first place, and yet still have intelligence.

On the other side of the coin, he also talks about how we spew out words and say things without meaning them, quoting Chomsky and his absurd sentence about colourless green trees, or whatever it was.

He has this theory that thoughts, creative works etc are based not on words but on mental images, which leads him to conclude that babies are born with the instinct of language even though they don't yet have words.

That's about as much as I've taken in!

I don't agree with everything he says, but he makes a very persuasive case against the idea that language shapes thought.

How do Japanese people speak to subordinates? Can you give examples? This is fascinating.

It depends on how nice of a superior he or she is, but they're more free to use direct, familiar language with subordinates. For example, to make verbs more polite you conjugate them differently, so to a superior or unfamiliar person you would say "ikimasu" for 'to go,' but to close friends, family members, or subordinates you would say "iku."

Vague situations occur, but Japanese society is VERY focused on setting up these relationships. In school and workplaces, etc., you know who your seniors are and who are your subordinates. It's very supportive of the argument that culture and language are symbiotic; culture dictates well defined social strata and the language helps reinforce that.

Of course you can have intelligence without language, and conversely string together words that make no sense, but the idea is that when you use a certain language constantly you tend to use the same thought patterns, think in the same concepts.

I mean, you can have a mental image of "tree" but what about the mental image of the word "basic"? It's much more complex and abstract, and for instance in Japanese where there are a few different words that map to 'basic' in English, but each represent their own distinct idea. I remember learning these, the teacher had to draw different diagrams, give example sentences, etc., and obviously I still am not able to use them to the same extent a native speaker can.

That's kind of a roundabout explanation but the point is, Japanese speakers and English speakers use different mental images because of the language they are using, and I don't see how this type of thing wouldn't have a profound effect on thought in general.

This has all turned into conjecture!

Haha yeah, oops, I even think this is all way off-topic! Like I said way upthread I think that personal identity, as well as how you perceive the behavior of other people, is very much a cultural issue and not a linguistic one.

i'm in the process of moving and don't have much time to spend tonight, but this is a very well-covered topic - those interested might borrow a copy of Language in Mind: Advances in the Study of Language and Thought, the text we used in a class i took on the sapir-whorf hypothesis last year

a few interesting papers to check out:

Lea Boroditsky, Schmidt, & Philips' Sex, Syntax, & Semantics

Berlin & Kay's Color Naming Across Languages

Munnich & Landau's Spatial language and spatial representation: a cross-linguistic comparison

part of Sex, Syntax, & Semantics (c+p'd from somewhere):

Boroditsky, Schmidt, and Philips (2002) created a list of 24 object names that had opposite grammatical gender in Spanish and German and then asked native Spanish and German speakers to write down the first three adjectives that came to mind to describe each object - in English. English speakers then rated the adjectives as masculine or feminine.

i don't remember the exact findings but obv there was a direct correlation - ie (again c+p'd)

"For instance, the word “key”, which takes the masculine form in German but the feminine form in Spanish, was described as hard and heavy by the German speakers, but as shiny, tiny, and golden by the Spanish speakers. These adjectives were rated as stereotypically masculine and feminine, respectively, by a group of English speakers"

but do read munnich & landau's explanations/rebuttals (don't know if they're in the linked paper but they should be available), which dampen these findings considerably. they maintain something like: language used as a tool for linguistic activities (ie stuff you do where language is on your mind for whatever reason) can affect thought, while it's doubtful that non-linguistic processes are affected

That paper about the characteristics of nouns is weird and also there have been other studies that tried to replicate it and were far more fuzzy. But it is an interesting line of thought.

the boroditsky? yeah i meant to add that it's pretty controversial and has been called out a few times, plus what you said about others not being able to replicate it - as of my class abt a year ago she hadn't responded to critics yet either, so don't take its results as gospel

adamj blows it in a half second by moving from "concept" to "image". Not nearly the same thing.

Also that Boroditsky paper (which I have just read for the first time) i appallingly dumbassed, and is best printed out and used for kindling.

is appallingly dumbassed.

I often feel like a different person depending on who I'm speaking to in my single language.

^^^this. I've long said i have as many personalities as i have friends, and not at a self-criticism (although when i've said it about other people they've more than once been offended).

i can only think of one friend with whom i have had a close friendship in both english and german - i'm going to ask her if she thinks i'm any "different" when i speak each language.

i'm pretty sure she's exactly the same person whichever language she speaks (she's totally fluent in english and german, although a native speaker of the latter), which may give credence to the idea that it's simple lack of vocabulary that alters perceptions.

and not as a self-criticism

TWU, I guess 'mental representation' would have been a more accurate word, but it doesn't change my argument much. What do you see as wrong there?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1265433/Croatian-teenager-wakes-coma-speaking-fluent-German.html

fluent GERMAN

Interesting question in this thread. I don't think I'm that different, but my sister and my brother are both far more expansive when speaking in English. They feel like different people. This may be because I'm less outgoing and extrovert and switching languages doesn't really change that.

Charlie's point has much more to do with culture than language -- note that Austrians and Swiss often find Northern Germans rude because of the directness with which they speak. (Direct as in "Open the door, please" as opposed to "could you please . . ." as well as "That's a bad idea" vs. "I'm not sure I agree".) This is not really a language difference for most Austrians, actually -- it's more a cultural sense of what sort of languge is appropriate to use in a given situation. Hell, the tendency of some English folks to avoid direct criticism of ideas (where "well, you could, but . . ." means "stupid idea -- try again" has given me trouble a couple of times, and I doubt many would seriously argue that my American English is a distinct language.

TTTHHHHHIIIISSSSSSSS. I live with a Northern German now and the number of times he's told me flatly that I'm wrong, or something I like is bad, and his inability to differentiate opinion from fact in his speech.........it fucking stresses me out. Having someone always ready to snap is making me tired, like I'm carrying this shit around all day.

nios cairdiul as gaeilge

I mean I had a feeling linguistics & culture were involved; he is kind of an asshole but not nearly as much as he sounds like, and anyway I'm one too and that's one of the things we like about each other. But the abrasiveness, it's driving me crazy.

If I say something that the lovely Emma B doesn't quite see the relevance of, and she wants me to add more she says..

"And?"

I have explained that this is impertinence bordering on rudeness..

However this isn't quite what the thread question is about. When I speak French I am much less talkative (naturally) and do a hell of a lot more shrugging. Also I am really sing-songy. I become more devil-may-care and kid-like.

Oh dear god, he accuses ME of being "rude" all the time, oh yeah us rude Americans, and I'm like UGHOWIURRRRHGHGHGH YOU JUST TOLD ME I MAKE THE BED WRONG AND ANY NORMAL PERSON WOULD KNOW HOW TO DO IT, CLEARLY I AM A FREAK OF NATURE so basically I may as well just be rude then!

Also that if I think a woman on tv is pretty, and he thinks she isn't pretty, I'm "wrong".

No one is going to blame me for losing my shit when it happens, right?

It depends on the woman, Laurel. Maybe you really are WRONG.

There's a cast iron frying pan out there with your name on it too, Tracer Hand.

Ive always wondered what language do people who speak more than one think in, like if your french but speaking in english do you think what you're saying in english of french :x

say what?

i think in english, then frame it in irish/french before speaking.

but my 'uh' noise while framing depends on the language....

I'd say I behave slightly differently if all the communication is in French. It's easier to get angry in French I think.

Haha yes - but somehow the anger is more comical

more of a performance?

Yeah, probably

People don't take anger quite so seriously in France. Everyone gets angry, then it blows over very quickly. In Anglo-Saxon culture if someone gets angry and starts shouting, it's much more serious. Probably someone's just about to hit someone else.

When I'm speaking french I feel like I'm always winging it a bit, in that there isn't really a distinction between the thought and the saying of it. So I suppose I'm thinking in French, but it's kind of automatic - I'm not really thinking at all, if that makes any sense. It takes so much more mental effort to converse (and I speak quite well) that thinking feels like a luxury - if I have to take care then I need to slow right down so as to gain capacity for other mental processes beyond forming words. As a result I usually have no memory of even quite full-on conversations immediately afterwards.

I'm not bilingual though, I imagine that's quite different.

As a result I usually have no memory of even quite full-on conversations immediately afterwards.

Interesting. I don't speak any other languages well enough to have had any full-on conversations in them, but on the few occasions I've exchanged more than a sentence or two in a foreign language I've definitely wanted to think through it again afterwards (to remember the response, to congratulate myself or to worry that I used the wrong word or missed some nuance) and been unable to remember any of what was said.

(I have had English conversations where I was too busy worrying about how I was coming across to remember the information I wanted out of the conversation, too - I don't know if this is the same thing or not)

When I speak English or French, I think in English or French. With Spanish however, which I speak but not too well, I think a little bit in Spanish and a little bit in French or English. I don't really know how to explain it but it's like I have the sentence in Spanish and the equivalent sentence is taking form at the same time in my mind in English or French.