Still puzzling over Serenus Zeitblom ...

he fancies Adrain, perhaps?
the ironic distance = mann's own aproach to the leverkuhnian composer, possibly. an ambiguous admiration, but also disgust.

oh i think i interpreted you wrongly, you mean mann's distance from zietblom, not zeitblom to adrain.
well, er, zeitblom is the sensible, politically aware/committed young man who grows up to obediantly serve the nazis and long for german supremacy lol. a comment on petty bourgeios nationalism and bland stupidity.

That's the first war though isn't it? By the second he's had a significant change of mind. Much like Mann himself.

And yes, I did mean the ironic distance from Mann to Zeitblom. Not that Zeitblom isn't a very charming character, well able to see his own flaws as well as the flaws of others, and a much deeper thinker on social issues than his more artistically gifted and glamorous peers.

Aaaaaanyway, one particular consequence of that ironic distance is that Zeitblom never - being too full of care and decorum - allows himself to speculate on Leverkuhn's real state of mind, his real issue with the question of selling one's soul. For it seems to me that the interactions between Leverkuhn and his Devil are the most rich and fertile in the book, and Zeitblom simply relays them, unable, in his genteel horror, to do more than that. Which is a pity as he is just the man for the job. Mann could do all that of course - but Mann, too, has chosen to distance himself from this very difficult matter via the cypher of Zeitblom. It's a little infuriating. A bit of a tease, perhaps? Is the idea that we are supposed to work this stuff out ourselves?

Totally agree with you about the sexual attraction thing too btw. It, also is v. coded, behind the rationaliseation of Z's obsessive need to track his friend's life; but also in the almost complete disregard of Z for his own wife! She is barely there in the text - beyond a shadow. He actually describes her early on, and one senses that he feels that she is adequate for his purposes, not very pretty, but entirely appopriate for bourgeois living. Then again, elsewhere, he sees through the borgeois and doomed aspirations of others with such perspicacity. He's a truly confusing character.

yeah you're probably right with your previous post. cards on the table: i read this two summers ago and moved straight on afterwards, so im going to misremember things.
thinking back, was zeitblom both excited and repelled by the rise of nazism?

I really like Zeitblom, perhaps it's the stage im at in my life where i'd far rather know zeitbloms than leverkuhns, ie those who are aesthetically minded and interested in things, but rational, balanced, not given to extremes.

I think, yeah, we are supposed to experience L's devil exchanges for ourselves, and too much comment would be superfluous. Z indicates what he thinks they are, and i have no reason to deviate from that.

what fascinates me is mann's attitude to leverkuhn, ie his critique of modernist and romantic art and creativity, its motives, its aims, its usefulness or otherwise. i suppose this is the ultimate point of the book for me, regardless of all its other felicities (eg descriptions of provincial german life).

Z thinks they're hallucinations. And they are, obviously. Everything's implied really. L turns his disease, and its comcommitant inevitable effects, into a basis for creating. There are, elsewhere in the book, dissertations on the neeed for the artist to be wounded or damaged in some way - or, perhaps, to make good use of that circumstance. I think the Devil also says it.

I really like Zeitblom, perhaps it's the stage im at in my life where i'd far rather know zeitbloms than leverkuhns, ie those who are aesthetically minded and interested in things, but rational, balanced, not given to extremes.

Yes, I agree.

(x-x-x-post) Yes, I think so, ie, that Z is attracted by the idea of German destiny as the leader of a world revolution in ideas. His attraction slowly turns into repulsion though, slowly, over the course of time, especially in the period intervening between the first and second world wars. But he's not all sweetness and light - witness his digust with Chaim Breisacher, whom one feels he dislikes all the more for his judaism.

How sexually antic was Leverkuhn behind the scenes do you think? Is Nepomuk really the child of an affair he had with his own sister? He says so in his last speech, but by then he's pretty far gone mentally obviously.

From wiki: "Hence Leverkühn and his music are not merely parallel to, but intended actually as an embodiment of, the soul of Germany, because to Zeitblom (or Mann?) his love for his friend and his fatherland are the same thing."

That's pretty spot on isn't it? The Devil actually praises L for his Germnanness (albeit ironically - he makes a big point of L's overly simply, mechanical, stiff rhythms). Plus, there's that wonderful scene where the jewish entrepreneur visits and L doesn't even speak to him - the whole chapter is a monologue from the entrepreneur.

First para is a response to Z's implied view of L's encounter with the Devil.

"one particular consequence of that ironic distance is that Zeitblom never - being too full of care and decorum - allows himself to speculate on Leverkuhn's real state of mind, his real issue with the question of selling one's soul"

L doesn't actually seal the deal, does he? he's angry and disgusted when "presented with the bargain", but it's assumed by the 'dealmaker' that's it's a 'fait accomplit', and so it is. z never actually makes the choice, at least not outwardly and not even in his mind, i think; he just continues to compose, but a faster rate, different emphasis/quality etc. i think mann is saying leverkuhn and his kind have no choice, this is a comment on life and nature rather than human will, i think.

Yes, it is assumed to be a fait accompli. The Devil does say, however, that the deal had already been sealed earlier in word and deed, and L doesn't contradict this. There's also references to independent, devilish studies undertaken by L in secret on his own behalf (I think? I am not sure about that, it's a half-memory).

Perhaps Nepomuk, the charmed and charming child with an archaic German turn of phrase, utterly beguiling to everyone, but doomed, is, at least metaphorically, the incestuous offspring of German high art and German provincial practicality - inbred because both worlds are inward looking, with an implicit sense of superiority, and both look to Germany, and nowhere else, for their provenance and future.

At the risk of throwing too many ideas into the blender, L imlicitly indicates he's happy with the bargain when he asks what to expect in hell. And, incidentally, how nice is that description he's given, one of the best I've encountered in English literature. Really creepy.

"L turns his disease, and its comcommitant inevitable effects, into a basis for creating. There are, elsewhere in the book, dissertations on the neeed for the artist to be wounded or damaged in some way - or, perhaps, to make good use of that circumstance. I think the Devil also says it"

ah, so this is a good point. in many ways then, the 'faustian pact' is z's way of providing excuses for composing and creating, to rationalise his guilt and deal with his sublimated sexuality. i mean, yes, he's slowly becoming mentally deranged, so in a sense the hallucinations are symptoms of the disease as much perhaps are they are a normal psychocogical pathology, but we can see the role his creativity plays for him in his life, and how because of it, he doesn't do other, normal activities. it provides a good raison-d'etre, and allows him to accept his disgust at other accepts of life, rather than turning on himself in an accusatory fashion.

Yes, that makes sense. I wonder if Z would agree.

i'm very hesitant to come up with my own thoughts about the various metaphors for german history in the book, purely because, and im not being disingenuous here, im not german, and know relatively little about it! i mean im not suggesting you have to be german to understand those aspects, im only talking with regards to myself - if someone else/wiki says these things represent these things, yeah, i'll go with that, cos im sure they know more about it than me!

Ha well I am assuming a lot of this novel is Mann giving us a window into salon discussions and other events to which he himself was witness. I'm a jew and a songwriter of sorts so this whole world is obviously interesting to me.

I came across the Mann book after reading Alex Ross's history of 20th century composition, 'The rest Is Noise'. From that excellent history it emerged that a great number of composers had read Dr Faustus and it made made quite an impression in that world.

On a more personal level, it's interesting to me that the faustian pact is usually understood as being for riches, fame and rewards in this life. L gets none of these and does not want them either. He wants creative abandon - his reward is total creative license, with all the highs and lows. He wants to be brilliant and he wants the ultimate artistic ride. He doesn't care for company and he openly and actively ignores those who try to propagate his name in the marketplace. He is very, very aloof - the kind of person one would think would be beyond faustian bargains. And yet, his maintenance of that privileged artistic position - to be isolated, inspired and driven - is itself a faustian bargain of sorts. No escape!

"How sexually antic was Leverkuhn behind the scenes do you think? Is Nepomuk really the child of an affair he had with his own sister? He says so in his last speech, but by then he's pretty far gone mentally obviously."

due to the speech i doubted it, but now, thinking on it, perhaps it did happen, it makes 'sense' after all; L has been, i think, celibate for most of his adult life, there's the tragedy of his attempted marraige, and you feel that one day he went mad with desperation and sickness and raped her.
As to Nepomuk, i think the scenes with him are some of the most grotesque, exaggerated comedy/satire in the book, though the child seems quite plausible at the same time.

Grotesque and surreal, with an eerie magic - not dissimilar to L's music, perhaps? When L chilling describes the children who appear to him to sing him melodies, craftily looking at each other, and smoothing down their hair which rises of its own accord, those diabolical images are, in retrospect, only slightly more disturbing than the vignettes with little Nepomuk, who also beguiles Z, in spite of the latter's gruff, clumsy attempts to assert himself as a conventional adult in the child's company. Neopmuk appears as if out of a dream - an 'ambassador of childhood', as Z says. It's a very disturbing eposide in the story.

I'm very much enjoying your insights btw Frogman! Much appreciated.

cool, it's great to talk about this! i think anyone interested in music should read it.

"Grotesque and surreal, with an eerie magic - not dissimilar to L's music, perhaps?"

yes - enchanting, mockingly so.

"I came across the Mann book after reading Alex Ross's history of 20th century composition, 'The rest Is Noise'. From that excellent history it emerged that a great number of composers had read Dr Faustus and it made made quite an impression in that world."

this is fascinating, and i'd love to know more ( i will read ross's book when it comes out in pb). when i read the book, apart from those namechecked and discussed (eg beethoven, palestrina, bach)the composers i thought of were schoenberg (obviously), webern, pfitzner, hindemith, reger, mahler, and hummel because of the unforgettably named nepomuk.
now wikipedia has reminded me of the 'nepo' part in hios name which is a good gag on his supposed origin!

"On a more personal level, it's interesting to me that the faustian pact is usually understood as being for riches, fame and rewards in this life. L gets none of these and does not want them either. He wants creative abandon - his reward is total creative license, with all the highs and lows. He wants to be brilliant and he wants the ultimate artistic ride. He doesn't care for company and he openly and actively ignores those who try to propagate his name in the marketplace. He is very, very aloof - the kind of person one would think would be beyond faustian bargains. And yet, his maintenance of that privileged artistic position - to be isolated, inspired and driven - is itself a faustian bargain of sorts. No escape!"

yes, i find all this very amusingly pertinent to artisic creativity and the leverkuhnian character, because ive known it in myself and can see the grim humour of it. yes lots of writers wish for greater ease and facility in writing, and do things to 'help' that - drugs, drink, cloistering themselves, being arsy to others. with L you feel it is because he can't (or feels he can't) exist in normal life, amongst other people, so he wishes to stop himself thinking about it all, as it distracts his mind and emotions. so through this invented dialogue, that's what he manages to effect in himself - it's also a teling example of the artist's feeling/fear that the work comes from somewhere else, and that we only get it/are given it by pleading, begging for it.
the sacrifice, in other words, of our humanity, dignity, maturity - soul?

so yes, i think it comes bacck to mann's attitude to creativity and modern art, what he sees as its justifications and disturbances.

of course, depite the humour of it, that he wishes for less pleasure not more, L's faustian pact isn't that much different from others - they always involve wanting something that's ultimately theologically/morally bad for you, satisfying desire.
don't forget goethe's faust wants to know the secrets of nature.

Yes, the wish for the creative process to be one of direct instruction or revelation - to have the whole thing flow, ready made, from the mind or pen, and not have to struggle, muddle through, and edit, etc, but to simply transcribe what one sees or hears. This really is a very seductive dream for many, even most, artists. One could well imagine selling one's soul for it.

It's an interesting wish, as it places one in a very vulnerable position towards one's own fantasies or dreams. One could become controlled by a nightmare of one's own creation, in a living dream. That really is a large portion of madness after all isn't it? It's probably better to insure one's mind against being led into hallucinatory confusion by retaining a bit of sketicism about one's own mental constructions, even if it does make creativity so much harder. Perhaps the faustian bargain, in these terms, is simply to allow oneself to fall into a state of mind where one seeks guidance from dreams and hallucinations. No doubt that makes creating a lot easier, but at a long-term cost to one's sanity.

You could say L knowing entered this world by deliberately giving himself syphilis, knowing it would lead to vivid hallucinations prior to a complete mental breakdown - that was the moment he contracted with the Devil, psychologically speaking.

yes, i almost said that myself, but without remembering about the contract (good pun on catching a disease).

"It's an interesting wish, as it places one in a very vulnerable position towards one's own fantasies or dreams. One could become controlled by a nightmare of one's own creation, in a living dream. That really is a large portion of madness after all isn't it? It's probably better to insure one's mind against being led into hallucinatory confusion by retaining a bit of sketicism about one's own mental constructions, even if it does make creativity so much harder. Perhaps the faustian bargain, in these terms, is simply to allow oneself to fall into a state of mind where one seeks guidance from dreams and hallucinations. No doubt that makes creating a lot easier, but at a long-term cost to one's sanity."

yes, exactly, and this is a large part of mann's critique i think, the problem of the liberated artist in modern society (since 1800s), without patronage, belief-structure (the Church), with a goal often tending to messianic overtones. it's a problem for all of us, especially when you get frustrated artists entering politics. but he indicates its eternal application down through musical history too.
and, as you say, the personal element, how to live as a decent human being, while also obeying artistic instincts - the dichotomy (zeitblom and leverkuhn?), the problems, the questions: rein in your impulses or give in to them, the art or the life, how to combine both.

Many artists take hallucinogens etc, in preference to L's path, but the intent is more or less the same. The idea is to hotwire or soup up the creative process by giving it a deranged twist. The Devil says as much - he describes L (if I recall correctly, but I'm using my own words)as being ready for his best work, but still too conventional. To date something has been lacking, some kind of fever, and to 'remedy' this, either consciously or unconsciously, L has 'contracted' syphilis.

the personal element, how to live as a decent human being, while also obeying artistic instincts - the dichotomy (zeitblom and leverkuhn?), the problems, the questions: rein in your impulses or give in to them, the art or the life, how to combine both.

Yes - because Z may not seem to be the ideal solution either, to many artists. He's a bit bloodless and colourless, and lives life through other people. His attraction to L is a tacit acknowledgement that he's a little incomplete on the dionysian level. How to combine the two characters of rational and visionary life is a very, very big question.

I think Zeitblom is Mann's attempt to understand Nazi Germany. The choices that Leverkuhn makes result in greater and greater tragedies, just as the choices that Germany made resulted in greater and greater horrors. Z has many opportunities to intervene in L's life and the lives of others in the story, but he always holds back. And the rational, humanistic Germans had many chances to stop the spread of Nazism, but they held back.