of the 20 largest american cities, which is THE WORST?

(oops the other info on the baltimore line is statistical stuff i meant to delete. if you're curious, it indicates an 11.5 percent population drop since 1990, dropping from 12th-largest to 18th-largest city. the full list of the top 50 is here.)

phoenix
i imagine jacksonville to be bad, anybody been there???

san diego county is more like 2,000,000.

san jose / san francisco are basically contiguous, there should be a "bay area" of about 2,000,000 people.

yeah, the metro-area thing fuzzes it up. i've been stuck in traffic between san francisco and san jose and there was definitely no sense of leaving one place or entering another.

so anyway, of these, i haven't been to any of the sans except francisco, and also not to indianapolis, jacksonville, austin or fort worth. several others (columbus, detroit, philadelphia) have just been drive-bys for me. nevertheless of the ones i have any real experience with, houston is by far my least favorite. its music notwithstanding. phoenix would probably be 2nd.

(although san francisco proper has a distinct personality, separate from the amorphous region)

you're not from the US, right? the largest cities list is kinda useless given differences in where the political boundaries are drawn. you want the largest metropolitan areas, which are:

1 New York 18,815,988
2 Los Angeles 12,875,587
3 Chicago 9,524,673
4 Dallas-Fort Worth 6,145,037
5 Philadelphia 5,827,962
6 Houston 5,628,101
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale 5,413,212
8 Washington 5,306,565
9 Atlanta 5,278,904
10 Boston 4,482,857
11 Detroit 4,467,592
12 San Francisco 4,203,898
13 Phoenix 4,179,427
14 Riverside-San Bernardino 4,081,371
15 Seattle-Tacoma 3,309,347
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul 3,208,212
17 San Diego 2,974,859
18 St. Louis 2,803,707
19 Tampa-St. Petersburg 2,723,949
20 Baltimore 2,668,056

Jacksonville, which may be the answer to your question, is only #40

actually i was, point of fact, born in the limbo between san francisco and san jose. i know the differences between city limits and msas. i used a list of cities because i like cities. having gone to high school in the suburbs of a city that is not on this list but that claims an msa of close to a million, i can tell you there's a big difference between living in a "city" and living in an msa.

but if you like msas, you can do an msa poll.

these are the 20 largest american cities if we replace numbers 7-10, 14-16 and 18-19 with numbers 28, 31-33, 35, 37 and 40-41

i voted houston, but there are a lot of shitty cities/metro areas in the u.s.

maybe you're swayed by the fact that SF city limits are uniquely water-bounded

fort worth by a mile

FYI, Phoenix passed Philadelphia's population in 2007 (it's at 1.5 million now)

xxpost: not really. i only lived in the bay area until i was 6 months old.

anyway, i'm interested in the characteristics of cities. most msas derive their personalities or their self-image or whatever from the cities they revolve around. (probably a lot of the cities i like least are cities that feel more like an msa than a "city". houston seemed that way to me.)

the los angeles one is weird because of how patchy the actual "city of los angeles" is within l.a. county. does it matter that someone who lives in culver city isn't counted among the 4 million l.a. residents and his neighbor in palms is? it matters in terms of service provision and local leadership, i guess...

I've been to every city on the list and voted for Houston... Pollution, traffic, civic ennui leftover from the early 90s oil bust, and land-use zoning mysteries that have encouraged mega-sprawl.

Houston is the worst, hot dry highways.

On the other hand, I quite liked Galveston.

Just realized that if Atlanta was on the list, I probably would have voted for that.

atl is #9

not fair that dallas-fort worth takes two spots, actually

oh wait no that's the msas

xpost:

galveston seemed like a good place to run away from houston to on the weekend. but not in itself enough to justify living in houston.

i'm kinda partial to atlanta though. it's ugly, but there are some nice niches. (my first impression of houston was that it was like atlanta, but worse.)

know the differences between city limits and msas

but you don't know, or are overlooking the fact, that the only reason places like indianapolis and jacksonville are on your list is because they draw their city limits further out than in-reality-vastly-larger cities like Boston and Atlanta

yeah, rapidly expanding msas often redraw their city boundaries to include the wealthy suburbs and get their tax money

right. and that has a lot to do with the characteristics and culture of those places. there are reasons atlanta's not on the city list but is on the msa list, and those reasons say a lot about atlanta.

like, good luck to atlanta trying to expand its city limits.

then there are places like pdx that have very specific urban growth boundaries to keep the city the city and the suburbs the suburbs (there are MANY arguments out there about whether this is a good idea or not)

portland is like an m.i.t. lab for urban planners.

and that's why conservatives hate it

i didn't want to study planning in portland, even though i love the place -- it just seems too easy. i picked l.a. because it's been so badly planned in the past several decades, and there was a lot of good stuff to work with. plus, there's a general feeling here that things HAVE to change, and enough influential limousine liberalism to make that happen.

i have a lefty-liberal friend who eventually fled portland because he thought it was making him intellectually lazy -- nobody to argue with.

what surprised me most about portland was forest park. huge!

but anyway to gabbneb's point, i think there's a a big experiential difference between a city and an msa. i lived as an adolescent in a quasi-rural suburban area with woods all behind the house. it was within the msa of rochester, n.y., but it didn't feel anything like living in rochester. if i wanted to know what rochester was like, i wouldn't ask people who live and in a lot of cases work 10-15 miles outside the city limits and maybe come downtown for a festival or a minor-league baseball game once a year.

Gabbnet OTM about the "true" outline of the cities, but a poll is a poll.

I'm guessing Indianapolis or Jacksonville is the worst, but I've never been there, so I won't vote for either. That'd be lame.

So my vote goes to San Jose.. for the high high cost of bland shittiness. And no, San Jose/Santa Clara/lower San Mateo is not SF. You can lump East Bay with SF, but noooo, please no Silicon valley.

Houston isn't nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. The city certainly is a roulette wheel. It can either really suck or really be awesome depending on the context, who you're with, who can show you around, etc. Houston is much better than either Dallas or Fort Worth.

Jesus I'd take Houston over DFW any day of the fucking week.

Obv nobody here has been to Charlotte.

Charlotte isn't great, but there is worse on that list.

Charlotte Douglas airport doesn't suck.

i've never been to charlotte but i know they've implemented a complete streets policy so i give them a virtual fist bump.

But my first ever Waffle House experience was in Charlotte, so you know, sentimental reasons and all.

haha, I misread the word after "virtual fist" at first, and uh it was interesting.

i actually think the MSA list would give you a decent ranking of the cities, if you divest some of the more compiled areas of their adjunct cities (dropping them down the list), adjust heavily upward for the more sides of a city that are geographically-bounded, and maybe add an asterisk for the fact that DC is the capital (and has building restrictions).

I hate Charlotte but I suppose every TX city is worse but I dinna know 'cause I am deathly allergic to TX.

population density isn't a bad measure

New York 26,403.8
San Francisco 16,632.4
Cambridge, MA 15,836.7
Chicago 12,752.2
Santa Ana, CA 12,471.5
Boston 12,172.3
Philadelphia 11,232.8
Miami 10,153.2
Berkeley 9,785.0
Providence 9,384.8
Washington 9,316.9
Long Beach 9,157.2
Bridgeport 8,720.6
Baltimore 8,058.8
Los Angeles 7,876.4
Lowell, MA 7,620.8
Buffalo 7,208.1
Oakland 7,120.9
Hartford 7,027.6
Costa Mesa 6,969.5
Minneapolis 6,969.4
Detroit 6,853.5
Oxnard 6,733.5
Seattle 6,714.8
Pomona 6,555.8
New Haven 6,541.1
Milwaukee 6,212.0
Cleveland 6,165.0
Rochester 6,138.9
Allentown, PA 6,024.4
Pittsburgh 6,017.3
Syracuse 5,868.8
St. Louis 5,625.0
St. Paul 5,438.5
San Jose 5,116.9
Fort Lauderdale 4,807.5
Springfield, MA 4,737.8
Erie 4,714.4
Worcester 4,591.7
Stockton 4,456.5
Grand Rapids 4,435.0
Norfolk Virginia 4,365.0
Honolulu 4,336.7
Clearwater, FL 4,299.9
Cincinnati 4,247.2
Ann Arbor 4,223.1
Las Vegas 4,222.7
Sacramento 4,187.4
St. Petersburg 4,165.0
Louisville 4,126.1
Tempe 3,955.7
Portland, OR 3,939.8
Toledo 3,891.1
Tacoma 3,863.4
San Diego 3,772.4
Waterbury, CT 3,750.7
Flint 3,718.5
Santa Rosa, CA 3,680.7
Naperville 3,625.9
Denver 3,615.6
Fontana, CA 3,571.4
Akron 3,495.6
Dallas 3,470.3
Eugene, OR 3,404.8
Spokane 3,384.6
Columbus 3,383.1
Houston 3,371.8
Omaha 3,370.8
Richmond, VA 3,291.0
Riverside 3,267.2
Manchester, NH 3,242.6
Mesa 3,171.0
Atlanta 3,162.3
Stamford 3,105.6
Plano 3,101.0
Irvine 3,096.8
Madison 3,028.4
Lincoln, NE 3,023.9
Evansville 2,987.3
Dayton, OH 2,978.1
Baton Rouge 2,966.4
Boise 2,912.0
Hampton, VA 2,827.0
San Antonio 2,808.3
South Bend 2,785.2
Phoenix 2,781.7
Tampa 2,706.9
New Orleans 2,683.7
Provo 2,655.7
Overland Park 2,629.3
Des Moines 2,621.1
Reno 2,611.9
Austin 2,610.6
Peoria 2,543.6
Wichita 2,535.2
Tucson 2,499.7
Albuquerque 2,484.0
Raleigh, NC 2,409.2
Green Bay 2,330.6
Memphis 2,327.6
Lafayette, LA 2,316.3
Pueblo 2,264.3
El Paso 2,262.8
Laredo 2,249.4
Charlotte 2,232.1
Sioux Falls 2,202.0
Bakersfield 2,184.4
Indianapolis 2,162.8
Tulsa 2,152.5
Greensboro, NC 2,138.4
Springfield, MO 2,070.8
Springfield IL, 2,064.0
Orlando 1,988.8
Durham 1,977.1
Colorado Springs 1,943.4
Amarillo 1,931.3
Cedar Rapids 1,913.8
Knoxville 1,875.8
Fort Worth 1,828.0
Corpus Christi 1,794.7
Savannah 1,760.5
Jackson, MS 1,756.5
Lubbock 1,738.4
Virginia Beach 1,712.7
Winston-Salem 1,705.9
Mobile 1,687.2
Salt Lake City 1,665.8
Birmingham 1,619.9
Little Rock 1,576.0
Tallahassee 1,573.9
Kansas City, MO 1,408.4
Waco 1,350.7
Lancaster, CA 1,263.0
Nashville 1,152.6
Chattanooga 1,150.5
Abilene 1,103.0
Scottsdale 1,100.5
Jacksonville 970.9
Lexington, KY 915.7
Oklahoma City 833.8

Not to be a douche, but you might like to know that there are more recent figures available: the US Census releases population estimates on July 1 for the previous year. The 2007 list shows the same cities but in a slightly different order. The most significant change, however, is that Phoenix has assumed the #5 spot, ahead of Philadelphia.

answer the question or start your own poll

xpost to everyone

but especially gabbnebb

(Oh sorry, Elvis T. has already pointed that out.)

or, just the 'top 20' cities

New York 26,403.8
San Francisco 16,632.4
Chicago 12,752.2
Philadelphia 11,232.8
Baltimore 8,058.8
Los Angeles 7,876.4
Detroit 6,853.5
San Jose 5,116.9
San Diego 3,772.4
Columbus 3,383.1
Houston 3,371.8
Atlanta 3,162.3
San Antonio 2,808.3
Phoenix 2,781.7
Austin 2,610.6
Memphis 2,327.6
Charlotte 2,232.1
Indianapolis 2,162.8
Fort Worth 1,828.0
Jacksonville 970.9

i already answered the quesyion, n/a

WE DA WORST

oh sorry, it must have gotten lost in the 9,000 posts of extraneous crap on this thread

Atlanta is just too spread out... the roads make no logical sense and where Atlanta begins is a mystery. I like the place though, since I'm from Georgia and I won't drive anywhere further for clubbing.

atlanta confused the hell out of me the first time i had to drive around it. i would keep thinking i had somehow wandered out into the country, and then i'd turn a corner and be back in an urban neighborhood.

whoa, there are centipedes and scorpions in phoenix.. what about tucson? is it at all possible you'd ever run across those things in the city??

unfortunately yes. Tucson also has tarantulas. Which are scary and big, but not as horrific as scorpions.

I have lived in places with all three of those - there is nothing serious to fear. stop being such pussies.

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/insects/az1223/

in the past 20 years there have been no reported fatalities in the US due to scorpion stings.

Complainant Sub-Zero could not be reached for comment.

I still hate them, they are creepy.

Shakey, there are lots of people with involuntary fears of one or more of spiders, scorpions, snakes, etc. that can't be controlled easily as you suggest

is there a tucson sports team named the tarantulas? there should be.

No one said it was easy to stop being a pussy!

HAHA

yeah, if you're not one of these people or don't know one of these people, i imagine it would be difficult to understand

lol gabbneb is afraid of spiders

presumptuous gabbneb is presumptuous

hey don't get me wrong I totally jumped the handful of times I was surprised by a scorpion - but I was never hurt, and the shock certainly wasn't enough for me to say "holy shit I'm never going there!" Christ don't get me started about the UBERGARGANTUAN insects in India...

Being scorpion-stung twice and waking up to a centipede in the bed is enough to make me say "holy shit I'm never living here again". But then I'm a girl.

stop being such pussies.

-- Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:33 PM (Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:33 PM) Bookmark Link

calling girls pussies, stay classy shakes!

my mom got stung by a scorpion once, in santa fe. it took her a few minutes to figure out what had happened (it was hiding in a shoe). when they called the local hospital, a nurse asked "is she still breathing? still conscious? ok, she'll be fine. if it was poisonous she'd by dying by now."

She called the hospital. What a pussy.

(NB this story has undoubtedly been exaggerated in the family lore. i don't think people really die scorpion stings that quickly.)

Yeah, true. I had some paralysis for a few days (stung on the shoulder, it was in a bath towel) the first time.

Mosquitos scare me more than centipedes which are basically harmless. I can understand being uncomfortable around poisonous scorpions and snakes cuz THEY ARE POISONOUS!

lolz like I know who the girls are on here

(x-post)

fwiw, most people who die do so from anaphalactic reactions, which can be awfully quick. (xpost)

"Mosquitos scare me more than centipedes which are basically harmless."

You can cross New Jersey off your list of vacation destinations then.

I voted San Jose more because it's the worst city for the cost. There are a few worse cities on the list, sure, but greater Santa Clara Co. metro being as expensive as SF = wtf. (It makes sense for the demand, but you get Google, Apple, and CNet employees instead of, you know, San Francisco.)

When my youngest brother was eight, he asked me to draw him a picture of a scorpion with Mickey Mouse's head. He still has it framed on his wall.

The frame is a nice touch.

(Mackro, CNet is based in SF)

Anyway the amusing thing about San Francisco is actually that the population is basically EXACTLY the same. I doubt there are too many cities anywhere where the population has stayed within a thousand people over the course of the last 50 or so years.

-- Alex in SF, Tuesday, 15 July 2008 19:26

740,000 immortal vampires

Jacksonville fucking rotted away nearly 20 years of my life.

On the plus side, Dennis Yost & The Classics IV are from there.

I once slept on the dirt floor of a half-built adobe hut about an hour outside of Taos, NM, on the opposite side of where we were told there was a black widow's nest. A life moment that in hindsight occurs to me as really really dangerous and stupid. And then I go, "IN HINDSIGHT!?!?!?!!" and feel paralyzed with astonishment for a few minutes.

Also, the only other things in the entire "building" apart from the nest and us were a) one of those love seats with a pull out mattress, but the mattresses that have no frame, just like a sleeping pad that pulls out onto the ground, and b) a half empty bottle of peach scented hand lotion, both of which belonging to someone called "Critter", who we were told had just been kicked out by his wife.

I slept in a sleeping bag many feet from the lotion-- I did one thing right.

Classics IV!

Even hearing that band's name makes me happy.

Other Jax highlights:

CC Orange of 95 South/69 Boyz/Quad City DJs

Uh, unless you count Limp Bizkit, Lynard Skynard, Molly Hatchet, or .38 Special, we're done here.

And yeah, Chamblin's Bookmine is as awesome of a used bookstore as mentioned here.

skynyrd and proximity to the beach are the only good things i can imagine about jacksonville

And then I met my ex.
-He had this band. Skeeter Meter.
-Like a rock band?
They were big around Tampa.
You listen to the Allman Brothers?
Lynyrd Skynyrd?
Then you've heard Skeeter Meter.
He was Greek and good-looking.
His daddy was a sponge diver
before they died out.
-What did they die of?
-Boredom.

LA. For international tourists, it never improves after the shithole Bradley International at LAX.

i voted houston, but there are a lot of shitty cities/metro areas in the u.s.

-- get bent, Tuesday, July 15, 2008 4:58 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

hell yeah dude

pro-tip: houston eats shit

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

just glad to know jax will win

Hah NEW YORK 6!

jax >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indianapolis

Los Angeles (3,844,829) 8
New York (8,143,197) 6
Detroit (886,671) 6

lol

I've never been to Texas or LA (or a few of these other spots), but I can't imagine any reasonable set of criteria by which Jacksonville could be ranked as generally superior to NYC, Detroit, San Fran, Philly, Boston, or even Baltimore. Jacksonville is a wretched place.

works for me: http://www.walkscore.com/rankings/most-walkable-cities.php