Gays in the US military, 'don't ask don't tell,' and other such things

Are we still having this debate?

How dare you belittle the Center for Military Readiness.

"the only way to keep from freezing at night was to get as close as possible for body heat -- which means skin to skin."

"And maybe an occasional handjob!"

b-b-but how can you build team cohesion without using homophobic group humiliation???

I don't mind cohering with a team.

really, does this actually threaten any tradition other than drill sergeants calling recruits faggots?

for the record i'd totally swish it up and lisp and make passes at recruiters just to avoid a draft, unlikely as that might be

xp I'm not sure it even threatens that, except everyone is going to crack up when they say it.

also, it must be a feat of herculean will and self-delusion to assume that our fine men in uniform aren't jerking each other off AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

i mean, aren't we talking about young men and women who would otherwise be experimenting with identical same-sex encounters in college?

Sexual experimentation is so middle class.

America is weird about gays.

we are?

Oh come on.

for the record i'd totally swish it up and lisp and make passes at recruiters just to avoid a draft, unlikely as that might be

man this was totally my plan too when I was draft age

Sexual experimentation is so middle class.

you're joking right - this post was mocking the sort of person who'd say something like this. right?

Fat Freddy tries the swishing it up technique when he gets drafted in a Freak Bros. comic, but the recruiter is this totally S&M swishy guy, too, and it doesn't work...neither does his obesity, extreme failure of drug test, or flat feet.

hmm got the reprint volumes didja now

Sexual experimentation is so middle class.

you're joking right - this post was mocking the sort of person who'd say something like this. right?

Of course, god what do you take me for!

Hell yeah, Shakey, those things are hilarious!

i mean, aren't we talking about young men and women who would otherwise be experimenting with identical same-sex encounters in college?

Gay/Lesbian Until Discharge (no, uh, other meaning intended)

Yikes:

James Pietrangelo II, the former Army infantryman and lawyer whose case the high court declined to review, reserved most of his ire for President Obama instead of the court. "He's a coward, a bigot and a pathological liar," Pietrangelo said in an interview with TIME shortly after the high court declined to hear his appeal. "This is a guy who spent more time picking out his dog, Bo, and playing with him on the White House lawn than he has working for equality for gay people," he added. "If there were millions of black people as second-class citizens, or millions of Jews or Irish, he would have acted immediately" upon taking office to begin working to lift "Don't ask, don't tell."

this is definitely shitty. that said, if dude's legal reasoning made as much logical sense as his invective then maybe his wasn't the best case to bring before the court. regrettable

tbh at this point any kind of invective, logical or not, can prob be forgiven

"obama is a lazy lying bigot" <-- not gonna win support from the voting base obama is (overcautiously) trying to maintain

comparing one's own struggle to other struggles is always a non-starter of an argument - it just makes people who are passionate other struggles angry & argumentative

about other struggles I mean

^like dov hikind and the brooklyn holocaust memorial, right?

i was thinking more along the lines of arguments for animal rights, about which I'm passionate but whose proponents have often alienated more people than they've won over by comparing slaughterhouses to death camps

comparing one's own struggle to other struggles

but this is empathy... it's the obstreperousness and hyperbole that's self-defeating, no?

obstreperousness

ooh you've been waiting to use that one haven't ya

all day

If there were millions of black people as second-class citizens...he would have acted immediately << i mean, wtf

^^^my thoughts exactly

Lady Gaga will rally in Maine to get Snowe and Collins to break filibuster.

So what next?

Ask Dan Savage.

I'm curious what happens if the Obama administration doesn't appeal. Does it leave it up to the discretion of the military to determine if homosexuality is compatible with service as it was prior to '93? Do we revert to Reagan's Defense Directive 1332.14 which explicitly says that homosexuality is no compatible?

nice pre-emptive rage there mr. savage

do we revert to Reagan's Defense Directive 1332.14 which explicitly says that homosexuality is no compatible?

I thought this passed in '94?

Dan Savage appears to me to be the walking embodiment of poor timing

I don't give Obama credit for this except perhaps his DOJ attorneys for presenting a shitty case.

Alfred, DODT ('93) replaced the language in the Uniform Code of Mil Conduct that had previously explicitly stated that homosexuality was not compatible w/mil service. Prior to that it was 'undesirable', I believe, and cause for discharge and no-one really messed with how the military conducted themselves that much until Truman.

OK.

Obama is catching so much flak from people like Savage 'cause he was under no obligation to stick his neck out so far and promise (as I believe he did in his first SOtU address) that he would work w/congress to repeal it. To do it unilaterally in a time of war looks like politicizing a decision which should be a circumspect institutional one only enacted after a review and since McCain (and his ilk) was ready a month ago to scupper the entire defense appropriation rather than include the (Murphy) DADT related amendment (and no-one called him a bigoted, possibly un-patriotic, but certainly every bit of a showboating, irresponsible demogogue politician as anyone), Obama will reap mostly negatives for the whole thing.

Im mostly curious 'cause American jurisprudence traditionally doesn't try to overreach to much so the default might very well be a reversion to the status quo ante.

he would work w/congress to repeal it.

uh he did do this? is it his fault McCain is a jackass?

Tennessee.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/judge-lesbians-military-turn-straight/

charming

"Shouldn’t the overwhelmingly straight warriors who answer their county’s call be spared the indignity of showering with other men who achieve lascivious enjoyment from the sight of those lithe naked bodies, and who may be tempted to seek more than the view? They are, after all, guys." - I think the judge is trying to tell us something.

yah jeez thats a little steemy

like what happened next judge u got me intrstd

happily married aussie Captain with children wants sex change ~ http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/my-bodys-a-war-zone-and-i-will-not-retreat-20101204-18krq.html

also totally sorry if this wasn't the right thread for this

The training rollout continues -- new blogger at Time has some good detail on his experience with it:

http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2011/05/23/dont-ask-dont-tell-a-gay-officer-witnesses-its-end/

by the way, has anyone mentioned the NYT's special package on Being Young and Gay?

Fin.

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals has ordered the government to stop enforcing the terms of the law that prevents openly gay service members from being in the military.

The Defense Department will comply and is informing commands worldwide of the court’s order, Pentagon spokesman Marine Corps Col. Dave Lapan said.

Though of course that was overturned but anyway, done, dusted, 60 days and out:

President Barack Obama has formally repealed the ban on gays serving openly in the military.

Administration officials say Obama on Friday signed a certification ending the 17-year-old "don't ask don't tell" policy.

The president took the step, as expected, after meeting in the Oval Office with Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Adm. Mike Mullen, the Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman. As laid out in a law passed in December, the repeal will take effect 60 days from now.

Statement from the President, apparently. Not yet formally posted.

I don't have much to add to the conversation right now, but I wanted to say thanks for the posts. I hadn't read those particular ones.

Dead at midnight.

It's over, as Boz Scaggs said.

First time tragedy, second time farce:

Andrea Lafferty, president of the Traditional Values Coalition, which opposed the repeal of DADT, said the Obama administration must address concerns raised by some in Congress that the military still isn’t prepared for the impact of ending “don’t ask.”

“What the average person doesn’t understand is that the president has attacked an institution that cannot defend itself,” she said, referring to political correctness inhibiting a frank discussion about homosexuals in the armed services. “We have these wonderful men and women serving this country … and these people have to keep their mouths shut and they can’t defend themselves from gays in the military.”

Poor souls.

I am not gonna lie, if at midnight every gay in the military yells "GET 'EM!" and starts attacking their straight colleagues my first reaction will be 10 minutes of incredulous laughter.

these people have to keep their mouths shut and they can’t defend themselves from gays in the military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Dfs7jqFI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gays_in_the_military

Among developed nations, you beat Singapore, congrats USA

Love this:

The other side will be heard, too: Elaine Donnelly, a longtime opponent of allowing gay men and lesbians to serve openly in the armed forces, has already said that “as of Tuesday the commander in chief will own the San Francisco military he has created.”

that is terrific

I'm really sad that no Cornerites have dared poke their heads above the ramparts on this today.

Especially Maggie -- given these two:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/20/dont-ask-dont-tell-repeal-wedding_n_971128.html