Working in the video shop after graduation may be all very well, but what if I want out?

what is yr 'chosen industry'?

I couldn't agree more with Cathy's post to be honest. Let me indulge in a case study. This is my story since leaving university, documenting the right and wrong steps along the way.

For years now I've been looking to do something worthwhile after graduating in English Language & Linguistics back in 2002 (sheesh!). I didn't do fantastically well due to family problems at the time and the fact that in retrospect it was the wrong degree to do, I managed a 2:2. When choosing courses I felt encouraged to do an academic, rather than vocational, subject since I'd always been quite studious at school.

But I was more interested in the creative side of things - music, writing, design etc. I'd spent a lot of my time at university putting together an online web community for electronic musicians, which ended up getting a fair bit of recognition but eventually fizzled out. I left university naively thinking that with an English degree I'd be able to just waltz straight into a well paid position at the NME. Instead I ended up spending the Summer working at the local Wetherspoons and then temping in an office.

I had no money after uni whatsoever so the idea of further study or applying for unpaid work experience was out of the question. Neither could I afford to learn to drive, nor was I very bothered about it. Living in a small town meant that the only jobs around were general office jobs, a ticket on the train to London Kings X costing about £20 a day. I just wanted to escape from my family's home as is the wont of many graduates who return to their parents (especially if they're splitting up, as mine were).

Of course I'd scan the media guardian for jobs but all opportunities required me to have very specific vocational qualifications, to know Mac packages, or to have already worked in a similar role already. I had none of these, just my degree and a bit of experience running a website (which I got someone else to program for me).

Going in and out of jobs in offices and call centres wasn't fulfilling. I found myself struggling with basic things like sending faxes or getting frustrated by databases. I wrote marketing letters in French and backed up an entire filing system onto MS Access in one job that paid £13K (because my employer told me that at 23 I was too young to be paid much more). I felt lucky by 2004 to be working in a large telesales office for an internet provider. It paid fairly well and I found the job quite easy, since I have a natural telephone manner.

Finally after nearly 3 years I was able to leave my Dad's house and start renting with friends. I was so happy to have my freedom back but soon I got tired of my job, just talking on the phone. I'm not a salesman - I never wanted to be a salesman, it just so happened that I was quite good at it. I wrote to my boss explaining that I wanted to move on and would be looking for new work. The very next day a position was advertised on the company intranet for a company trainer. I applied and was succesful out of 25 other applicants.

At last, a job I could actually be proud of doing. Rather than saying "Oh I work in a call centre", I was able to tell people I played a pivotal role in a small team, teaching people using blended learning techniques, designing training material and presentations, analysing results and attending meetings. I lasted a year and then the company got bought up, the call centres were moved to India and I got a generous, but not enormous redundancy cheque. How frustrating to have only just started getting my teeth into a job I loved than I found myself applying again.

I started almost immediately at a large well-known company in another supposed training role. This was my first ever job based in London and I was impressed by the grand offices. They paid me pretty well too, so the daily train journey, while extortionate, wasn't too bad. Sadly after only a week I realised that this training role was a bit beyond me. It was very hands-off and very office based - in fact the physical training involved was minimal and the role seemed to involve sitting through endless meetings and sending out memos to some remote location in Wales. They kept asking me to do things I didn't understand at all and after only two weeks I sat down with my boss and we decided it wasn't the job for me.

After Christmas I took yet another training job at a miserable little electrical installations firm on a horrible little commercial estate that involved taking a train then a bus to get to. I sat alone in a white, windowless room with a single desk and a laptop sifting through endless piles of badly-photocopied documentation about how to climb ladders properly, how to screw in a lightbulb, how to fill out some tedious forms, and basically rewriting these documents so they were legible and made sense. A complete lack of stimuli led to me getting bored and frustrated and I think I remember dossing around on ILX an awful lot during that time. I lasted the three month probationary period but no longer.

Now 2007, and I was subject to a long period of unemployment. I was at a loss. While I'd enjoyed my first training role, I had been disappointed by consequent jobs and I was becoming unsure of my abilities and ambitions. I started thinking back to my original plans as a naive graduate. My mindset led me to believe that if I took the next job off the conveyor belt I might end up being pigeonholed and never get my dream of working in the creative/media/publishing world. I looked back to relevant things I had done - setting up a musician's website, writing the odd article for Stylus, running my own entertainment blog, organising gigs and events, writing presentations and training docs at work etc... but I'd never actually worked in a specific role before, and my CV was full of office and call centre work.

I read up on the roles I was interested in working in (God knows why I hadn't researched this before) - journalism, editorial, advertising/creative, music, and marketing/promotions. All these seemed to require a great deal of unpaid work to get into. I applied for a job I saw on the Gumtree writing for an events listings website, but it turned out to be an internship paying £100 a week and literally working around the clock. I wasn't afraid of the hard work, but the practicalities of going to London every day on that kind of money proved impossible, plus the way the trains worked, I could see that I'd have to do an awful lot of sofa surfing to get by. It could have been a great way to get experience in journalism and the music industry, but it would have been impossible.

After 7 months of hopelessness I ended up taking another telesales job round the corner from me in the hope of earning enough money to pay back the debt I'd racked up in my unemployment and to save up a bit so that I could do an internship if I wanted to. I also had an itch to go travelling and see the world a bit.

I'm now approaching my 28th birthday. I speak to other graduates my age and they all seem to be doing significant things with their lives - finishing PHDs, getting ready to travel before taking the next steps in their careers, slowly making their ways in journalism, studying for their MAs, looking into doing Law courses, making their ways in teaching. They're buying their own houses, saving up money, working the property ladder.

I, however, am still working the telesales job which isn't paying half as much as I need to save anything at the end of the month, still renting a flat with mates, still coming to the end of my overdraft every single month and just not progressing. I've never been travelling, have little actual experience in anything that doesn't involve working with call centres. Often I feel like I missed the boat long ago to go and intern for a year in the media sector, and neither have I the resources to fund that kind of thing.

There are plus sides to all this though. I'm currently organising and promoting my own club nights at a large venue, with opportunities to work with the NME. I wonder if this could lead to possible "real work" in the future? I'm trying to scrape together enough money each month to learn to drive (finally) which I hope'll help to broaden my horizons and get me a better job. My Mum has also offered to loan me a bit of money to pay for a course if necessary, but I would need to support myself during that time.

Is it really too late in my life to be thinking about courses and gaining experience? Is it even worth doing, for instance, an intensive journalism course and then trying to get work that way? I'd probably need to intern for a while too and I don't know how I'd survive on this without working.

I'm thinking about maybe doing an MA while I telesale myself into oblivion, but I don't know how people go about doing courses and working full time as well - what are your experiences in this?

The sales job isn't paying me enough as they cocked up the commission structure - should I try for another one of these tempting roles that say they pay £40K OTE and keep on with my plan to save? Or should I look into applying for loans/funding to do this and just get on with a course/internship?

Or should I just save up and go travelling, find myself etc? It would be great to do this but I'm a bit worried about returning from this penniless again and not having gained the right type of experience in the fields that interest me.

I feel as though the last five years (other than when I worked the training role) have been all but wasted, career-wise. Is there anything I can do? What experience do you Ilxors have in furthering your careers? Am I too old to suddenly be trying to get into fields that most people already take a lot of time and dedication getting into? Are there alternatives?

without wishing to discourage you, Grozart, i just want to say that freelance journalism, especially in the pop realm, is a very hard to make a living at. i'm sure you alrweady know this, but working in that industry might well also not earn you enough to run a car, etc, just as working in telesales, or a video shop. i have no real regrets myself, but i do sometimes wonder if i'd have been wiser to opt for another field and pursue the writing part-time; i'd certainly be richer, even if i comfort myself that my life might not have been as rich, in terms of experience and travel.

Is it really too late in my life to be thinking about courses and gaining experience?

dude. of course it fucking isn't. i'm five years older than you and i'm starting a part-time MSc conversion course in september with a view to a spectacular change of career/direction (see threads passim). i'm looking at about another seven years of toil to this end. you are never too late to do this kind of thing.

HOWEVER ...

Is it even worth doing, for instance, an intensive journalism course and then trying to get work that way? I'd probably need to intern for a while too and I don't know how I'd survive on this without working

without wishing to sound like a stuck record: journalism is now a fucking appalling career and i really wouldn't recommend it to *anyone*. you sound like you have the same kind of ideals i had when i was a student; the difference is i slogged my guts out doing unpaid work experience and managed to get a junior sub's job shortly after graduating. "WOAH, THIS IS FUCKING GREAT!" i thought. 11 years later, i look back at the toil and sweat and misery and penury and i think: i went through all that to end up here?

and i speak as someone who was, until last month, a departmental manager earning a decent whack (i've now resigned my managerial post and gone part-time, and couldn't be happier). put it this way: if you'd told me 10 years ago where i'd be working in 2008 and what i'd be doing, i'd have shot my load in my pants. if you'd added: "and you'll hate it, and everyone you work with will be miserable, and almost everyone with any talent whatsoever is leaving to do something else," i'd never have believed it. but it's true.

granted, the situation in scotland is worse than elsewhere, for various reasons. but what's happened here is slowly being replicated in london newsrooms. it's going to get a lot worse before it gets any better at all.

my mate retrained as a hack when he was > 30. he now does one of my old jobs. he applied for a journalism postgrad (they like mature students, so you should be OK -- you will need some more experience, though, which will obviously be unpaid), toiled for a couple of years on some shitty local rag (you seem blissfully unaware that this is pretty much mandatory) and now ... er, fucking hates his job and, i can tell, blames me for everything :)

i'm not trying to burst your bubble, but you're being enormously unrealistic about this. of all the millions of wannabe hacks out there, how many are working for the NME? of those that are, how many are earning anything like a living wage, as opposed to just being thrown the odd scrap for the odd live review? how many are happy? do you really think the NME is a secure place to work, let alone freelance? because i don't. i work for the oldest still-published english-language newspaper in the world (fact) and i don't think that's secure.

dr grimly's advice, in a nutshell: go and see a careers adviser. if you want to do some writing on the side, do it -- this place is hoaching with potential contacts. but really, seriously: journalism as a career is fucking rotten right now. take it from one who knows.

but anyway: what's the big deal with a career anyway? job for life? i don't think so -- you've been burned already by the flaming shite of capitalism. a pension? hahahah, yeh, like that's going to be worth anything when i retire.

i think my/our generation is starting to wake up to the fact that, really, it's not about ploughing the little furrow that society expects; about making a choice and sticking to it. (again, you remind me of how i felt a few years back -- "shit, i've made this bed for myself and i have to lie on it". chatting for a couple of hours to a careers adviser made me realise that we create these ruts for ourself and no-one else really gives a shit.) you're young and enthusiastic. there's a tonne you could be doing. maybe do lots of things at once. stop trying to create a box for yourself. of course there are "alternatives".

journalism is one thing, yeh. but fuck me, i couldn't recommend it less.

but i'd also say, in terms of this:

I feel as though the last five years (other than when I worked the training role) have been all but wasted, career-wise.

that you might not discover the value of what you learned in these years until much later, and that spending too much time bemoaning that you haven't done 'enough' in the past might come at the expense of doing 'enough' in the present and the future. don't dwell on it, just try not to repeat it. most of all, don't beat yourself up.

^^^ yes, abso-fucking-lutely.

I hear you Stevie, and I'm very aware that music journalism tends to be the kind of thing people get into as a freelancer and doesn't really pay the bills itself until you get a particularly prestigious gig.

Journalism does interest me, publishing maybe more so, but I am wondering if this is a good idea. Is it better to go and do a course and get an NCTJ if my eventual goal were to work as a sub/copy editor? Or is it better to apply directly for an editorial assistant's role? Or try and find unpaid experience somehow?

Part of me thinks maybe I should go and do a course in something utterly different... I've always been good at graphic design-y type stuff, although the only qualification I have is an A* at GCSE. Would one be able to do, for instance a masters or similar in that kind of thing? Something that teaches the Adobe packages and similar, or is this crazy talk?

Would it be worth approaching events companies to see if they have any work? I have been involved with gig and club nights most of my adult life and these take a lot of organisation and planning and managing people - would this be an idea?

OR is getting into management an option? Not very creative, but it would be using my work experience to date quite well cos god knows I've met enough shitty middle managers in my time.

Really I'd just like to do a "proper job" that means something to me and gives me a bit more satisfaction than doing menial office/call centre work. I guess this thread isn't necessarily asking for practical advice (although it's all recommended), but I would be interested in hearing about people who have been in a similar situation, or have changed job sectors or gone on and done further education midway through their lives so as to get those jobs, and how they went about it.

xpost

these threads scare me to death. i'm due to graduate in March and have no.fucking.idea what I want to do. :(

Who was it that said work was best left to slaves?

Look, I graduate this time next year but my degree will be in Painting.

people who have been in a similar situation, or have changed job sectors or gone on and done further education midway through their lives so as to get those jobs, and how they went about it

for what it's worth: i just went for it. in june or july last year, i found myself on strike: enormously liberating and so on, but at the same time profoundly depressing.

this was post-careers-adviser chat and i'd been looking at doing voluntary work etc but was also aware that, fundamentally, all paths were leading to a return to university. it was mrs fiendish who basically said, look, stop moping about and make some phone calls.

so i did. really, that's all i can recommend. see all the things where you say: "is it worth this?" or "is this an option?" the answer is yes to all of it. indeed: why not try exploring a few of those avenues simultaneously? it's not like you're making a life commitment (see my witterings above about a career). just pick up the phone, make calls, go for it.

if my eventual goal were to work as a sub/copy editor

don't do this. whatever you do, don't do this. yes, i know: i'm cynical and bile-filled. and i still love the fundamentals of what i do as a sub. but you do realise that we're now seen as an expensive and unnecessary frill, and our days -- at least, in terms of doing what we do now -- are surely numbered?

it'd be like your eventual goal being a chimney sweep. or a VHS engineer. or a gas-lamp-wick-trimmer.

just pick up the phone, make calls, go for it

and i'm aware how long it took me to do this, of course. i appreciate it doesn't feel as easy as i say it is.

but it is. trust me.

grimly - i actually am aware of what you're saying here with regards to the perils of journalism. every hack from local rag workers to people like yourselves have warned me that it's incredibly hard to get into and the returns are minimal and you get really fucking sick of writing about village fetes. And no, I don't legitimately see myself working for the NME - that, as I say was a naivety on my part as a student.

That said, a lot of jobs i see in the paper that i would like to apply for do ask for some kind of journalism qualification, without necessarily being journo roles.

Accomplishment is becoming important to me. I work with people who dossed around at school and left with no qualifications. Without wanting to seem elitist, I tried very hard at school and college, and I don't believe letting my guard down during my degree has really affected my employability too much - so I can't help feeling grounded and rut-holed.

People love to boast about their achievements, but I sometimes feel embarassed when I have to admit to people who are achieving at least SOMETHING with their lives, that I've been in call centre work in all this time.

Grimly - okay, I hear you. You're right, there is nothing to lose by picking up the phone. Who exactly did you ring though to get careers advice?

Just out of interest also - what are you studying and what are you looking to do?

Or is it better to apply directly for an editorial assistant's role? Or try and find unpaid experience somehow?

Without experience, you will NOT get an editorial assistant role. How many journalism grads do you think are going down this route right now, knocking you right down the bottom of the pile of potential candidates? This is not meant to sound patronising, but at installing a sense of realism into you. People who have paid their dues in the local press. Were you involved in the student paper? Do any editing there? Do some voluntary work, maybe with a local charity newsletter or something? Maybe explain to temping agencies that you would like to gain experience in some sort of relevant field and see if they can place you in something more interesting than a call centre? Though, tbh, if you are struggling with faxes and the like, perhaps you might want to pay your office dues a bit more first.

btw, if you hated rewriting illegible copy at that electrical installation firm, maybe subediting isn't the route for you?

I don't believe letting my guard down during my degree has really affected my employability too much

Are you able to convince employers of this? As more and more people come sailing out of higher education with all-singing, all-dancing degrees, you have to have something which proves this. A hotch-potch CV of half-assed attempts at doing stuff isn't the way of doing this without something else there as well. Do voluntary work, or find something tolerable and relevant and stick at it for a while so that when you go applying you can say "yes, I made some wrong choices, but I'm working at rectifying that, look, this is what I've done" rather than "I know I can do better than this" - everyone says that, the trick is proving it.

voluntary work: yes, yes and thrice yes. (which reminds me: i'm waiting on an interview from a voluntary organisation. hmm. i should maybe prod, gently.)

Who exactly did you ring though to get careers advice?

careers scotland ... yeh, i know, that's not a great deal of use to you. but have a look at their website anyway. and then ring your local citizens advice bureau, who should be able to help.

i'm studying psychology. why? because, for about five years, i've wanted to. i'm fascinated by people and groups. i want to know what makes them tick. what do i want to do with it? we'll see. for now, i'm keeping my options as wide open as possible. ultimately, though: i don't have a particular goal in mind other than the study itself.

i earn just enough from my new part-time gig at work to keep the wolf from the door. we'll see how it goes. if it doesn't work out, or i fuck up: i'll start again with something else.

finishing PHDs...studying for their MAs...

putting off going through what you already have

grrr... stupid internet just lost me a big reply post.

gist:

how do people afford this voluntary work? I did two weeks at the local paper (the only place I can think of in the locale who does anything related) back when i lived at my dad's, but they didn't offer people longer placements than that. Courses too - how do people study and work full time, is it just a matter of sorting things out with your boss? what if they say "no way"? internships - are they just for people who are still living off their folks and can afford to travel up to work with no pay?

Dole money. Surviving within your means. That's how I did my stint a few years back. A lot of voluntary placements pay your expenses so you aren't left out of pocket.

Studying + working = find a job with flexible hours. It might be another call-centre, but you know you can do the work, and at least you'll have a better qualification at the end of it and not JUST another stint in a job. I worked in a shop and a call-centre and as a cleaner when I was a student. Investigate your local volunteer centre for suitable opportunities that you can fit in round another job that you do for money instead of experience.

I can't contribute much here given the UK specifics of grozart's situation but to quote grimly:

it's not about ploughing the little furrow that society expects; about making a choice and sticking to it

This is very true. I'm still somewhat surprised to be working at the library job I got after I left grad school precipitously in late 1996; however, what I've been able to do over the years is to not let that job be my be-all and end-all -- trite advice, perhaps, but important to remember nonetheless. I tend to think of myself as much happier than many people I could name who got stuck in that furrow (or even worse, embraced it willingly).

what I've been able to do over the years is to not let that job be my be-all and end-all

not trite advice at all. just ... utterly sensible.

It also takes your mind off the 'main' job to have those other things going on in your life, personally, professionally, whatever. Otherwise it eats away at you if there's something to cause you stress, whatever it might be. A few times I've been asked about my seeming patience with situations that have cropped up, for instance, but I've always pointed out I had other things to do and enjoy -- writing work most obviously when it came to other income, but then there's everything else I like to do and enjoy. You know, life!

But I speak from a position of security that grozart isn't feeling right now -- I will say this, though: grozart, if you measure yourself against colleagues doing what seems like the 'mature' thing (those folks with the PhDs, on the property ladder, whatever), you are doing so in a way that places the emphasis on their outside trappings. Are you seeing them in a full light -- or could you ever see them in a full light? -- or are you stopping there? Many friends my age are living 'the American dream' as stereotypically described -- marriage, kids, house, etc. -- but the variety in their many individual personal situations ranges from the content and blissful to the stressed, nervous and completely wrecked. I wouldn't want to be in the latter's shoes at all, no matter what they else they had. So be careful about feeling a keep-up-with-the-Joneses feeling -- you want to aim for your own happiness and sense of place, not one conditionally determined by that which surrounds you and which skews your perceptions.

Ned, this is all true. On the surface it looks like I haven't done much, but extra-vocational stuff has seen me successfully organising fairly large events in my locale. I put on a night at a new large nightclub in town. The club staff were dubious until I proved I could pull a crowd in on my first night (a week night). They now ring me all the time asking me to do more events and now they want us to help in hosting a monthly Club NME night, which is all exciting stuff. I play in bands and have music projects. I organise daft gatherings and bbqs for friends and locals. I started a multi-contributor blogzine too (which has admittedly fallen by the wayside but I'm going to get it back up).

Plus-side I've just managed to get a tentative foot in the door through a friend of a friend possibly contributing to Cl45h magazine, which could be profitable.

So far I've actually been fairly happy in just working the 9-5 and doing more interesting things outside of that. What has shocked me is that because I do live in a town where young people are generally younger than me and tend to move away soon after graduating, I now meet graduated people my age and they seem to be doing a lot more with their work and lives in general. It makes me feel like a loser, or that I'm stuck in the life of a twenty-year old which is depressing for me because, well, I feel I have the brains, drive, talent and the ambition but I have always suffered from a lack of direction. It feels that many people are able to intuitise their ways into their chosen area - like they're receiving memos or have some kind of untapped oracle as to what to do, or they receive support and backing from others which I never had.

Hmm...well, I'd say this -- my own opportunities have come about through a combination of luck and asking after things. Luck you can't control (a lot of it always has to do with networking, though, and you *can* control that!), but asking after things, hey, ball's in your court.

So be careful about feeling a keep-up-with-the-Joneses feeling -- you want to aim for your own happiness and sense of place, not one conditionally determined by that which surrounds you and which skews your perceptions.

This is so OTM. Maybe this is all culture shock or just silly Jonesesing, but at the same time it may all be quite natural to get to a point in your life and think "Oh fuck, I've achieved nothing and that's how people see me, and dammit it's time I grew up a bit". Living the way I do is great as I have no family, few commitments, a bit of debt but nothing tragic, great friends, lots of extra-vocational activities, and at least I have a job.

But it's getting to a point where I'll maybe meet someone or I'll want to buy a house or raise a family or be able to travel around a bit without the fear of coming back to deadbeatness. It also feels that if I'm to achieve a goal, it's time to lay down the groundwork and stick to it and get started on it before all the responsibilities start racking up and I'm stuck parroting stuff down the telling bone for the rest of my days.