taking sides: libraries vs. bookshops

Library, definitely, because you can hang around in there and just read the books without thinking about all the smudgy fingerprints you're putting all over the books. Plus, it's much easier to take chances on books you might never think of buying.

And, cool as bookshops may or may not be, the coolest shop on the block is the record shop.

2nd hand bookshops, get the right one, and its supacheap. usually spend about £2-3 tops on a book. and you get as long to read it as you want. i mean if yr reading some goddamn pynchon or dfw, its going to take a while, no?

Libraries do let you renew you know. I don't think I have bought a book for myself that I haven't already read for about three years. I know so many people who buy books constantly - they clutter up their lives and rarely get re-read. Its pretty much the same reason why I don't buy videos. Unless there is something outstanding about the film/book the fact that I have completed the narrative will pretty much stop me returning to it. I have a good memory and I will know what happens.

However this may merely be due to my predilictation for fiction - especially crime fiction and science fiction where the unknown is a key factor. I wouldn't be without my reference shelf.

I'm with Gareth. Second hand bookshops = lending library where you don't feel guilty if you keep the books when you're done with them. The thing I miss most about Swiss Cottage was the Book Market. And Library Book Sales = ACEST OF THEM ALL!!! The NY Public Library on 40th Street is responsible for some of the weirdest and best books I've ever read.

Is Borders a library? I mean, has anyone ever actually bought anything from there? I only ever seem to use the bathrooms, read the books, and then buy anything I liked somewhere else... Hmmmm...

Oh, and the smell of second hand bookshops = one of the best smells on earth. My favourite second hand bookshop (I couldn't take The Strand, it just used to drive me insane) was Argosy books on 59th and Lexington. They're one of those rare booksellers who have obscure medieval books in their back room that you think only exists in horror films and stuf...

pete: I know so many people who buy books constantly - they clutter up their lives and rarely get re-read

exactly. i only really started going to the library for books when the limited shelf space in the house ran out. now i wonder whether buying books has been a huge waste of money. the trouble is that the local waterstones has a better selection than the local library.

so, what are the cheapest bookshops with the best selections (i'm going to have to get some barthelme and kalfus soon, i think)? so far ,church street books, stoke newington has been difficult to beat

second hand, that is

There's not enough good independant bookshops left. Border's is the worst invention ever. All that other crap doesn't belong in bookshops, it all knocks out selection. (also I resent them taking over books etc. which was a reasnoble chain). Dillons suffered by being bought by waterstones but waterstones does seem to be improving little by little.

I want a bookshop like my favorite record shop, (I can go in get given a cup of tea, (well actually get asked to make the tea), and get a selcetion of tunes played to me from which I can make my selection).

On the actual debate: I like ownership of books because invaribly I'll go back and read them or want to lend them to someone. Well organised second hand bookshops rule.

There are some cute little secondhand bookshops down Charing Cross road. Sometimes they have too much antiquarian stuff, but you can find a few gems, if you're prepared to do some searching.

I love buying books. I just like having them. Sure, they take up loads of space, but there's something comforting about them. Except for my law books, which I use as doorstops and to keep windows open.

Libraries: I take out ten grate-looking books, then don't read em untiu lthe fine is big enough that I should have bought em.
Bookshops: I buy ten books (well, five), take em home, put em in a pile to gather dust, and reread Moominvalley Midwinter.

Well, you can't underline stuff or make notes in library books, without feeling guilty...I prefer to get my own copies of books, as I'm not so bothered about them getting damaged.

Theoretically, libraries roX0r. Loads of books you can read for no pence, providing you take them back in time. However, most local lending libraries have very limited range of books and even some bigger ones (yes,I'm talking about you, York Central) don't seem to go much past scads of Military History and C.Cookson. And I like owning books, officially for being able to re-read and deface them at will, but really just because I like being surrounded by big piles of books.

Bookshops. Hmmm. Big secondhand ones are best, everything less than 3 quid = hurrah! Plus bonus of reading other people's notes in the books and the odd bookmarks that fall out of them. Otherwise: Waterstones does its job pretty well, Borders is shit for books and interior (brightly lit + low pale shelves != proper bookshop), grate for Kristin Hersh gigs, Blackwells in Xoford is top banana for having every book written about obscure bits of CompSci ever.

I once worked in a bookshop that was in a library. It was a very stupid idea: we had like five customers a day, and at least two of those were tea-leafing the stock. On the plus side, I had all the time in the world to read the books on the shelves, argue about eco-anarchism with my boss, write reviews, do interviews using the work phones ("Can't help you now, love, I'm talking to someone who used to be in The Fall...")

Librarybooks w. teeny-tiny passionate biro margin-notes written by INSANE MADMEN w.no place to go prior to invention of modern interweb = TOTALLY GRATE!! Esp. if others have replied. THE TRUE AND GENUINE ORIGINS OF FLAMEWARS!!

My mother is a librarian. She's not very pleased that I haven't set foot inside of a library since the spring of 1995.

Marginalia as revolutionary paratextualism indeed! I think there is a new book on this subject, saw Sansom reviewing it in the Guardian the other week.

My favourite marginalia:

i) in a 2nd hand bookshop in San Francisco, in a copy of a Richard Brautigan novel, key paragraphs had been underlined with additional comments such as: "Oh my darling, this reminds me of that time when we made love and you were wearing your new Rod Laver tennis shoes". The details of this affair, sprinkled throughout the text, were a lot more engrossing than the Brautigan, let me tell you. But what sad circumstances led to it winding up in the 2nd hand shop?

ii) Stevenage in the mid-80s was a hotbed of Militant Tendencies (indeed I myself once appeared on the front cover of Militant! in 1986 in one of the grate misquotes of all time, but that is for another thread). This resulted in ANY book on ANY SUBJECT AT ALL in Stevenage Library being detourned with such inspiring marginal comments as "YOU, COMRADE, WILL BE FIRST AGAINST THE WALL WHEN THE REVOLUTION COMES!".

But anyway, the decline of the library depresses me greatly. When I was a nipper, there were no bookshops in Stevenage at all. As far as I know, there still aren't. If it hadn't been for the eccentric collection at the local library I would have turned out a very different creature. For my money, the determined destruction of local libraries by successive administrations over the last 30 years is the greatest of many crimes against the idea of common access to information and education, and the idea of swanky Metropolitan Borders for all is the Antoinettism de nos jours. Excuse me, I seem to be turning into Nicky Wire...

London local libraries - whilst generally underfunded and full of quality tramps reading the Financial Times ("I used to be a stockbroker y'know" - "yeah?" I said in my clallow youth - "Obviously not a very good one") have hugely idiosyncratic selections and there's always one within the mile.

Marginalia is top fun. Especially detective novels where you underline the murderer when they first appear. Ho ho.

Libraries *have* to be great, since I work in one -- but more to the point:

LIBRARY PAYROLL: "Here is your money."

LIBRARY WORKER: "I thank you."

(Worker leads happy, prosperous life.)

----

BOOKSTORE PAYROLL: "Here is your money."

BOOKSTORE WORKER: "Can I just get that amount in books, please?"

(Worker eventually starves.)

Oi! Stop being so nasty to Borders! What have we ever done to you? :) On second thoughts don't answer that... In "our" defence (though views expressed are correspondent's own and should not, etc, etc):

1. UK Borders not the same as US Borders - different ownership and management. 2. We have not absorbed Books Etc - they are still managed and staffed independently of Borders. 3. We have the largest selection of periodicals in the UK and it is POLICY that you are allowed to read these, enjoying a tall skinny latte at the same time if you like, without paying for them. 4. Same goes for the books - nicest library in town? 5. We stock a far wider and more eclectic selection of music than any other major. 6. When was the last time you saw Patti Smith or John Cale doing gigs in your local library?

So don't feel bad about reading the Wire and Mojo or whatever and then leaving, you are allowed to. Advert over.

Oh shit, I've got the sack for spending all my time on the interent... now where's the number for that library...

Oh, I don't know about that, Ned --- I have a friend who is a manager at borders that makes lots of $$$. The problem is, the working conditions (at least at this branch) are horrific. It wouldn't be worth the hassle and irritation, plus Borders is so eeevil.

I like both. Lots. I would be lying if I said I liked libraries over bookstores -- they both have their uses. It's just like with record or clothing shops; where you go often depends on what you are looking for on that particular day.

Have you really been sacked? I know some employment lawyers...

nah, I haven't really got the sack... at the same time, I certainly don't make lots of $$$, hmmm... maybe I should go work for the library anyway...

Library becasue boook s cost too forking much and you cant take em with you when you go

I don't mind Borders. Bookshops tend to relish in their dinginess - this one seems to say come in and don't be embarressed about browsing the graphic novel section. And certainly for magazines they are fantastic (the best place in London to get THAT edition of Entertainment Weekly). They stay open late, do interesting book related things (readings have really taken off). If that's corporate culture then is it all bad?

And also the competition inherent in the Waterstone / Blackwells / Borders three pronged attack on Foyle's has finally made that place start thinking about bucking up its ideas. Why i believe you can even pay for your books when you take them to the counter now - without having to go up to the cashier of doom on the fifth floor.

I are not liking Foyle's. Except the bloke on the top floor, he's the uber book geek!

Of course I agree with Stevie re. the decimation of the library. That hardly even needs saying.

But what was the Greatest Misquotation Of All Time?

Foyles began pulling its finger out when Christina F. dropped dead. She was insane.

Working in libraries totally rocks. You spend your day chatting to old women about Bette Davis and eating jelly babies. Sometimes old ladies come in and give you cakes they've made. There's a nice, quaint feel to the whole thing, refering to people as Mrs Suchandsuch or Mr Whoever.

You get loads of little kids coming in as well and their parents always say things like "Give your books to the nice man" and I never realise their talking about me". I used to have a Pokemon watch and I used to hear kids saying "Mummy, look, that librarian's got the same watch as Jack"

The stock in the libraries is pretty crap, I'm forever taking books from home into work to read in my lunchbreak. That said, they have quite an odd selection of CDs in the branch where I work (Endless Soul by Josef K?)

Any way, libraries rock. Secondhand bookshops are extremely cool but I don't like the smell. Remainder bookshops are quite useful if, like me, you have a habit of cutting pictures out of books to make cool photomontages. Little independant bookshops - ace. Big chain stores - not too bad.

libraries never have enough comic books. whereas i read two boondocks collections and clowes' david boring last time i was at borders.

But anyway, the decline of the library depresses me greatly. When I was a nipper, there were no bookshops in Stevenage at all. As far as I know, there still aren't. If it hadn't been for the eccentric collection at the local library I would have turned out a very different creature. For my money, the determined destruction of local libraries by successive administrations over the last 30 years is the greatest of many crimes against the idea of common access to information and education, and the idea of swanky Metropolitan Borders for all is the Antoinettism de nos jours. Excuse me, I seem to be turning into Nicky Wire...

That'd be like way better a song than Wattsville Blues.

Anyhow, I like to buy books. I like to spend money. You can only spend money in a library by being late with books, and late fees annoy me.

I guess you can burn books for fuel after you read them

I've worked in some really baaad libraries. One was at a snooty academic institution, where we were forbidden to "chit chat" with one another or read e-mail. The other place had bosses who would write down every mistake you made and save it for evaluation time, and your salary was tied to your evaluation. The tech work in larger libraries is oppressively boring. The library I work in now is not so bad, but the other two were shitholes. The only problem is that we have a lot of self-satisfied arts faculty who think they are incredibly liberal but who treat the staff like shit. Not all of them are like that, but there are a fair number of them who think that you're their personal assistant.

Second Hand bookshops are perfect. The people are interesting, the books are cheap, walkign into one is like a random scavange. I do not like libraries except for the huge art books, free internet acess and quiet places

oh and i trade or sell SHBs after i finished reading them. I only keep about 1/10th of the books i buy.

Libraries rock. Bookshops rock. Books in general, rock. The major shift in my lifestyle over the last few years has been from spending as much of my income as I could afford on CDs to spending it on books, while trying to get into the only career where a future partner would not be able to complain about how many books I buy and in which I *might* actually have time to read some of them. I mainly buy the books I can't get in libraries (and Edinburgh has a copyright library), either because they're US presses, or because I need to / want to read them NOW, not in 6 months time.

I have to say I like Borders (UK). The range of titles carried seems to be much wider than Waterstones; and they carry some interesting periodicals. The percentage they take off publishers is high, but I had less problems, running a small literary magazine, dealing with them than I did with Waterstones. My only concern is that based on the only Borders store I have been visting regularly (Glasgow) I do get the impression that it opened with an extraordinary range of books, but that as these sell out, the replacements are far less imaginative. This may be a store-based rather than chain-wide phenomena.

I love librarians too. Many people, especially students it seems, complain about them, but I find that not asking damn-fool questions, smiling a lot, and generally treating a librarian like a human being, gets a great response, and they're often willing to bend the rules for a regular...

Second-hand bookshops/cheap bookshops full of discount stock: classic. I like Oxford central library's cd selection but very rarely get books out; on the other hand, I did borrow "Energy Flash" from them before deciding I was so reluctant to give it - and its cd - back that I'd buy it myself, so I'm grateful for that. I just like owning things and knowing that I can enjoy them at my leisure and not worry about losing them or leaving them lying around where they might get trodden on or whatever. I tend to buy cheap books all the time but feel too busy to read them for ages and then have a huge reading binge. On the other hand, only buying cheap books does mean I end up reading a lot of crap and not reading a lot of things I'd like to have read.

And I feel I should put in a good word for Borders, since they gave me a free Stephen Malkmus poster, which is a quick way to win my adoration, even if I am too embarrassed by the glossy Boyzone-esque pose to put it on my wall. Plus they stock magazines you wouldn't find in Smiths, like Comes With A Smile and Maximumrocknroll.

I think Alex's concerns about Borders replacement stock being less interesting (or at least less varied) than the initial stock do seem to be accurate, though, based on the Oxford branch. I have little evidence to back this up, however.

Each of these fine places has its own charm. In a book store you can get a shiny slick virginal copy for you and only you.

A library is communal. Borrow this book that countless other people read while sitting on the pot and please enjoy.

as much as i love bookshops, for the ability to enhance my own book collection, i would have to go for libraries on this one, as i am in one now and it has lots of computers. it also has an AVSC, with good records and movies. and it has more books that i would actually read than a bookshop.

just reviving this thread to see if anyone can add in any good 2nd hand bookshops in london, other than church st books stokenewington.

the ones on charing cross road aren't very good really are they? and the ones in greenwich are rubbish and overpriced.

Judd Books & Judd 2 Books on Marchmont Street & Judd Street are little troves of treasure.

There's a smashing one on Coldharbour Lane as well. I try not to go in there too much else I would buy so much argh. My room is packed enough. I need more storage before more books. I still have Infinite Jest to read and that's a MUTHA!

I've been wondering similar things, Gareth. Aside from Judd, which seems to have an inexhaustible supply of delightful short Harvill stuff, I've had some good luck at Skoob (in the same complex as the Renoir Cinema in Bloomsbury there), the one just opposite Farringdon Station and the one on the ground floor of the Elephant & Castle shopping centre. The Oxfam bookshop on Marylebone High Street is generally worth a visit (as is the record store across the road). I'm sure I'm missing some gems. Recommendations always gratefully received.

i want to read Bridget Jones but i OUTRIGHT REFUSE to buy a new copy. there must be bleddy millions of the buggers out there, but can I find one in the caner research/oxfam/etc in chiswick. can i ARSE.

I don't know the answer to either of those questions, Alan.

have come up trumps in Charidee shops many a time, don't forget your local humble charidee shop! also the Amnesty International bookshop in Hammersmith is good. plus, that huge book market on the South Bank in front of the theatre complex. and the NOtting Hill Book and Comic Exchange. and Brighton.

Sarah you must take me to this amazing Brixton 2nd hand bookshop - and Pete and Tim i'll be following your suggestions too :)

Tim, i can't arse as such. i just are one.

Fired by Katie's Brighton bookshop recommendation (amongst other things), I'm thinking about hazarding a trip to Camden-on-Sea this weekend. So tell me: where are the absolute stonkingly unmissable s/h bookshops in Brighton, please?

Oh crikey, I remember going to a superb second hand bookshop in Brighton, unfortunately it was many moons ago, all I remember is that you turned right off the road that leads into town fromt the railway station and that it's massive, with about three rooms piled to the ceiling with books.

arrrgh, Tim! now my k-lame knowledge of Brighton will be exposed! Um, OK well, there's Gardner Street which is where the Vegetarian Shoeshop is, mmmm. at the bottom of that there's a kind of crossroads - you're standing opposite a guitar shop. you wanna just go straight over, into the road opposite Infinity Foods (mmmm infinity foods). then you're on the road with all the bookshops! there's an Oxfam bookshop and another second hand one which has a very cute black cat living there. i should imagine that there's loads of other bookshops as well, you'll just have to have a walky round the Lanes.

sorry for lame directions. i don't know the names of any Brighton roads apart from Gardner Street!

Vegetarian shoes? Infinity foods? GUITAR SHOP?? Sweet Lord, I have contracted to enter hell itself.