Smoking - so uncool its hella cool?

I cannot believe that the idea of smoking has been sold as "cool" to The Masses, when basically, given the amount of campaign contributions the Tobacco Industry contributes to the right wing, every pack of Marlboros you buy might as well be a vote for Pat Buchannan.

If you want to kill yourself, please do so in a manner that does not affect *my* health. Like, drink yourself to death like a real man.

Oh, I've sooo done that...my mum haad to give me mouth to mouth once as a result...cmoking is faar better because it pisses people off soooo much. pFFF

What really irritates me are the really self-righteous anti- smoking zealots, like "The Truth" commercials that air on US television. They attempt to make smoking seem unhip, but they do so in such a smug and self-righteous fashion it's almost enough to make me take up smoking.

x0x0

The problem is, I really don't give that much of a shit if I'm ruining everyone else's health in a bar or a club. I don't care if that makes me a bitch, because my theory is that if it bothers you that much, either don't go, or stand in an area where people aren't smoking. You know what you're in for when you go and I hate, hate, hate it when people go to a club and then complain about the cigarettes. It's like going to one and complaining about the drunks. It's different in a restaurant - I'll sit in the smoking section if they have one, but I'll wait til someone else lights up around me or has obviously lit up, and I"ll blow the smoke as far away from people as I can. At my own house, I smoke out the window, and if I have visitors I'll ask them if they mind (I've yet to be told yes). Even if I'm sitting with a nonsmoker friend, I'll ask if they mind.

I just hate the anti-smoking zealots, really. It's always the same thing - you're killing me with your smoke! Yes, if you're a fetus, sure. But I've read far too many contradictory studies on the effects of *second-hand* smoke to actually care. And I hate people who feel it's their right to lecture me on what to do with myself.

The difference between being around drunks and being around smokers is that, unless the person is so drunk that they are spilling their beer on you, a drunk does not INFLICT their habit on you the way that smokers do. As they say about free speach, your right to nasty habits ENDS at the tip of my nose.

I don't need any government studies to tell me that when someone is smoking near me, my eyes water, my throat closes up and I cough, I have difficulty breathing, etc. etc. etc. Cigarette smoking MAKES ME ILL. Why should the perverse, disgusting habits of a few people make my life hell? I have as much of a right to be in a restaurant, bar or nightclub as a fucking smoker. Why do their rights outweigh mine?

It bothers me, as a music fan, and as a performer, when I go to a club and the place is thick with cigarette smoke. Do you know how hard it is to SING in that sort of an evironment?

I am not contributing to this thread any more, because it makes me very cross. I think smoking is one of the most inconsiderate and rude things a person can do. When I see someone smoking, all I think is "what a fucking twat, that they think their right to enjoy themself outweighs my rights to be here." FUCK THAT.

Norman - "You are paying a lot of money to some of the scummiest corporations in the world" - I presume you don't buy anything from a supermarket, a major record label, etc. etc.

The high UK tax on fags also helps pays for the NHS, schools, etc. etc.

Book gigs in non smoking nightclubs. They do exist, in the US at least. I mean, I understand your specific point that you personally have a very high sensitivity to something in the smoke, and that's unfortunate and I'm sorry for you if that's the case, and if you were at my house, I wouldn't smoke near you. Most anti-smoking zealots do NOT have that problem - I'm talking in the US here, which seems to be a whole hell of a lot more anti-smoking in general than anywhere in Europe.

As for drunks not impeding on anyone besides themselves, all I can say is then you've either not been around enough drunks or you were too drunk yourself to notice (oh, I'm just kidding, sit down, girl!). I mean, our whole NYC meet was about being impeded upon by vicious drunkenness. In all seriousness though, you haven't seen bloody bar brawls? Men haven't rather ridiculously, irritatingly and threateningly hit on you when drunk? You've never seen someone smash up a glass and cut themselves? No one's thrown mussell shells off a roof at cars around you? Okay, well that last one might be a special kind of drunk stupid, but the rest of them are very common. Drinking most certainly impedes upon other people's right to enjoy themselves because there are a lot of people who don't know when to stop.

I just hate the anti-smoking zealots, really. It's always the same thing - you're killing me with your smoke!

I don't actually care abt the health issue, because I have rheumatoid arthritis, so old age is something I'm not planning on staying around for, IT'S THE GODDAMN FUCKING DISGUSTING SMELL I object to. You don't notice it because yr used to it, but trust me, picking up yer clothes after a night out w/smokers - the way it smells, U may as well have dipped them in dogshit.....

aNDReW L sez:

Norman - "You are paying a lot of money to some of the scummiest corporations in the world" - I presume you don't buy anything from a supermarket, a major record label, etc. etc.

The high UK tax on fags also helps pays for the NHS, schools, etc. etc.

Sorry Andrew, but that's really fucking lame. If you can't see that there's a big, big difference between Asda, Tesco, Sony/whoever, etc and big tobacco, then you really need to take a closer look at the world around you. Last time I checked, no supermarket chain made itself extremely wealthy selling a single highly addictive product which comprehensively fux0rs the heath of its users, whilst delivering no great reward that I can see. And, no record company that I know of regularly attempts to supress research showing that its products are harmful to one's health, whilst sponsoring quasi-research which surprise! shows that its products aren't that bad really. Coming out with that line abt taxes contributing to health & education just makes you sound like a phillip morris shill. Do you know any health industry workers by any chance? Would you like to ask them about the cost of health care to an emphysema (SP?) sufferer? or a lung cancer sufferer? Or do you actually give a shit? Go on, fckng light another up......

I don't know, it makes me laugh, this lot - I see a bunch of smokers getting all antsy and calling out "health fascist!" How obvious does it have to be? If I don't smoke in your vicinity IT DOES NOT AFFECT YOU IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. If you smoke in my vicinity you are effectively FORCING me to inhale poison. That's all there is to it, I mean what the fck is this, cognitive dissonance thread, or something? If you don't care about that, well, OK, but don't start calling me, or non-smokers like me fascist/authoritarian/whatever just because we object to that. From my point of view, I have a perfect right to object to it, more so than you have to object to my objecting, or something.

x0x0

Don't hang out with smokers if you don't like the smell. Simple as that. Quite frankly, there's nothing I like less than self-righteous blubbering about smoking, so you might be giving us a break by leaving us alone for the night out.

And one last thing: I suppose you never watch all the news reports on how dirty supermarkets are and how half of their meat/dairy is contaminated at certain chains? You don't think they go about surpressing that? That's the most foolish statement I've ever heard anyone say. If you think that tobacco companies are the only ones supressing info - sometimes more dangerous and wide reaching info - then you are extrodinarily naive.

"Do you know any health industry workers by any chance?" Well, quite a few as it happens, including a doctor who smokes more than me. And yes, the cost of treating smoking-related diseases is hellishly expensive. As is the cost of treating people who drink too much, who eat too many doughnuts, who like fighting, who sustain injuries playing sports, who contract STDS from unsafe sex etc. etc. If we were to limit healthcare to those people who hadn't done something unhealthy/dangerous all the NHS waiting lists would vanish overnight. My point is, smokers are one of the few 'burdens' on the NHS who also (materially) contribute something as well.

And again, of course the tobacco companies are unscrupulous scumbags, but so are ALL corporations. The products that they sell may not be as obviously harmful and addictive as cigs, but many of the methods used to sell them and make profit can contribute to human misery just as much (cf Nestle selling milk powder to the Third World). Visit www.boycottindex.com for a long list of shitty, rotten business practises on the part of large corporations that have a negative impact on human happiness (including your example, Sony.)

Now, can't we talk abt prog or something...

Right,

I don't actually care abt the health issue, because I have rheumatoid arthritis, so old age is something I'm not planning on staying around for, IT'S THE GODDAMN FUCKING DISGUSTING SMELL I object to. You don't notice it because yr used to it, but trust me, picking up yer clothes after a night out w/smokers - the way it smells, U may as well have dipped them in dogshit.....

I don't actually care abt the health issue

IT'S THE GODDAMN FUCKING DISGUSTING SMELL

I have to like someone who smokes a LOT before I put up with the stench. As far as contaminated dairy produce and meat goes, for fuxake, I'm british. Don't you think I'm WELL AWARE that our meat & milk is contaminated? If our supermarkets did try to supress this information, then they did a pretty fckng lame job, judging by the pics of burning foot & mouth infected cattle in all of our newspapers for most of this year, and the fact that in the wake of BSE, our meat products are as like leprosy to foreign markets. It's also fairly well known that milk suppliers do such dandy things as mix past its sell by date milk back into bulk quantities of good milk, rather than chuck it out. Mmmm.

I get round this by:

1/ being VERY choosy abt where I buy milk, and not using very much of it.

2/ not eating meat at all.

Easy really. Anyway, spare me the snidey comments re self righteous blubbering. You can be pretty self righteous yourself. Smoke all the fuck you want, seeing as yer thousands of miles away. Smoke ten king-size @ once, if U like. Actually, I don't give a shit. If U think I'm going to waste online time hunting fer case studies RE passive smoking so U can just shoot 'em down in some snidey manner, then you've got a wait ahead of U. I'll just continue to socialise with those smokers who are considerate in their use of tobacco, which, ironically enough, going on yer previous post, includes people like you.....

now, go ahead and have the last word, if it doth please you to do so.

x0x0

blah. Enough for this evening....

See, I wouldn't smoke around Kate. I WOULD smoke around you, to piss you off.

Mark, you are so totally right. Drugs should be sold in the supermarket with cigarettes anyhow, it's the only way to get around the whole shebang. The government could tax it and use it to pay off things (that's the funniest thing about the whole "Tobacco companies are evil" bullshit - it's a mutually productive relationship), drug addicts could get safe(r), clean doses, plus it'd probably lessen the amount of kids starting up since it'd not be a cool, screwing-the-man thing to do. It is a sham concocted to keep government officials in business and to keep down certain groups of people.

I used to smoke two, maybe three cigarettes a day in college. I only smoked when I was with people who were themselves smokers or by myself. If I was walking down the street smoking and saw someone coming towards me, I would hold off on inhaling so that this person would not get a cloud full of second-hand smoke in their faces. Basically, I recognized that my habit was considered to be spectauclarly invase by some and tried to go out of my way to keep it from impeding other people.

This did not prevent people from running across the street as if I had leprocy while giving me levil looks if they turned a corner and saw me holding a cigarette at the end of the block. Or, even better, the person who crossed the street specifically to yell at me for killing children with my disgusting destrucitve habit (never mind that there were no children in sight and I never EVER smoked when I knew that I was around kids). I was unbelievable. When I finally quit, it was partially because my girlfriend was deeply allergic to the smoke, but also because people were such aggressive pricks about the whole thing and I didn't enjoy it enough to put up with the bullshit.

Don't think for a second that non-smokers hold the asshole monopoly on this issue, because they quite clearly DO NOT.

Smoking if someone's asked you not to = rude.

Rudeness = endemic.

Agreed re. self-righteousness of both sides. Something about the whole argument makes everyone sound like either the guy from Consolidated or like Fred Durst. Best counter-argument to "You dont have to go where people smoke" is "You don't have to smoke", surely? And then nobody gets anywhere. Also by similar logic anyone Ally's age doesn't have a leg to stand on complaining about health fascism since they could have seen which way things were going when they started up.

I don't understand your comment re: health facism, Tom - what does being well aware that smoking is unhealthy for a smoker have to do with anything?

On one hand, it's a vile, disgusting habit. Being around my father 8 hours a day (chronic colds, coughs from the vats of Hell, phlegm, phlegm, and teeth the color of 70s flatware, but still smokes in our fucking office) doesn't dissuade me from my stance. I know for a fact that my health has gotten shittier since I started working in that office 3 years ago, mostly due to being around cigarette smoke (about 3-4 cigs worth) every single day. (Not that I'm getting cancer or losing limbs; my allergies kick up more often, though, and I get sick with much more ease than I did in the past.)

That said, smokers have rights, too. If you go to a club that allows smoking, you have to deal with it. When someone sparks up near you, either ask them to move, or move yourself. Idiots that take time out of their day to chastize people for deigning to indulge in a cigarette deserve to be used as ashtrays. Grandstanding & preaching should be saved for family members, good friends, & lovers, and only then in moderation (unless you WANT to start a fight). (Of course, my ex-gal rarely respected my request to not smoke when around me, and one time even kissed me after an inhale. Mmmm. Tar & lip gloss - mighty fine bouquet. Hence, ex-gal.)

Personally, the occasional clove is OK. (I think I've had, like, 3 in the past 2 years.) Regular cigarettes are ass, though. Never mind the carcinogenic factors - what about BURNS? Your clothes, your car upholstery, yourself? As far as relieving stress, I find ranting & raving like a potty-mouthed asylum patient does wonders. And is often somewhat amusing.

When my friends smoke, I just give them a wide berth, and offer a piece of chewing gum afterwards.

And my real problem isn't so much with the smoking itself, but the assholes that I seem to run into that can't respect my right to object.

As for cloves - argh! Those are horrible for you, they're worse than newports :)

As far as me dad (AKA The Boss), he got his karmic come-uppance at the office yesterday. He usually uses an emptied Coke can as his ashtray. Well, he drank his Coke (while watching TV - don't ask), then started ashing his ciggy in the can, and then inadvertently took a swig of said ashtray. Ah, if only I hadn't been sequestering myself in my office when it happened. Ah, yes.

David: EEEEEEW that's sick as fuck. I hate that, I won't even drink at a bar if I leave my drink unattended for a minute cos I know drunk assholes will accidentally(or purposefully, depending on the drunk asshole) ash in my drink. We had to use cups filled with water as ashtrays in the hotel, and the look of it turned my stomach to the point where I mad hunted for the stupid ashtray (which was inexplicably hidden).

For an illustration of just how different attitudes used to be, though, you should see the 1964 British TV adverts I was watching yesterday. The portrayal of smoking as something totally glamorous, aspirational, and sexy, makes me retrospectively vom.

Nothing to do with smoking making you unhealthy - so does lots of stuff. I was just saying that your argument of "well you know these places are going to be smoky and you went so dont complain when they are" seems pretty much on a level with someone saying "well you knew you were going to get grief from health fascists and you started smoking so dont complain when you do"

Whereas I reckon it is possible for you to know a thing has consequences, do the thing and still be allowed to complain about the consequences.

However the real menace here is Smoke Machines. I was at a club last night and got a faceful of CO2. I had to have two pints before my body could get enough oxygen back into the system for me to start dancing. Oh - and for the DJ to stop playing that fucking Mr Mister Tupac track.

I only think smoking is cool cos our landlord is an air steward and gets me cheap duty frees which my so-called friends steal.

However I generally try not to cause offence by smoking. What irritates me is when people claim not to mind me smoking near them then proceed to make an elaborate show of waving away any smoke that comes in a 10 foot radius of them. If you don't want me to smoke say so!

Drinking - now there's something that makes you a total freak from Mars if you don't do it, especially when you're 18 or so. Reactions to this from otherwise intelligent people are sometimes remarkably stupid.

"those alerts will bounce back to us if the address you type isn't valid." - Cool can i flood ya bitches?

as for smoking, seems here that posters should cite their nationality when making a point, cos as this thread shows attitudes/expectations/experiences of british and american people are a million miles apart...... out of interest, why did smokers here start up?

no, because we already know it's a problem, we just don't actually care

What's the consensus on outrageous b.o.?

probably not carcinogenic? just guessing.

But you enjoy the smell, yes?

As long as it's not American Spirits -- that shit is nasty.

I didn't realize American Spirits was b.o.

Me, I like to mist the air everywhere I go. If people don't like it, they can kiss my ass! It's very refreshing and a little water never hurt nobody!

deej, are you saying there are no public health issues related to drink? i wouldn't deny that smoking in underventilated bars causes some problems for staff that need to be managed. i still think an outright ban is not the right idea.

-- That one guy that quit, Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:22 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

of course there are but its a totally separate issue and bringing it into this debate is disingenuous and clouds the actual issue being discussed

-- deej, Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:25 PM (Yesterday)

it's not a totally separate issue at all - it's the original reason i revived this thread!

cf, my original final para:

Staff a pub entirely with smokers! Only allow bands who smoke to perform! Make the non-puffers sign an “I will not whinge like a petulant milquetoast” waiver on entry! Purge this blanket ban nonsense – and for god’s sake treat us like adults.

Make the non-puffers sign an “I will not whinge like a petulant milquetoast” waiver on entry!

or just ban them from the place ala 'no team shirts'

i guess i'm in favour of smoking pubs and non-smoking pubs (would be interesting to see which places opt for what and differences to business) - esp. as it wouldn't really affect my social life either way.

if it's someone you know well, definitely take em aside and let em know its a problem. if you don't know them that well, complain loudly and move.

really? You "complain loudly" at, like, homeless people on the bus? "You STINK! Also, GET A JOB!"

just because one is a smoker doesnt mean that they should have to work in an environment blanketed with tobacco smoke.

lots of people are willing to work in unsafe conditions for money but the government still regulates it.

i mean because so few people i know smoke as it is so i could be in the non-smoking places with most of my friends most of the time. (xpost x2)

deej, the thing is that basically one person is arguing with you at all and everyone else is advocating things like smoking licenses for clubs to apply for and other available options rather than blanket bans, so you kind of sound like a broken record douchebag. barely anyone is trying to claim you as being "selfish" or anything else yet you keep rambling on about how bitter and whiny everyone on this thread is. HI STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE, THE "EVERYONE WINS" ZING WAS BASICALLY IN REGARDS TO YOU, SPECIFICALLY YOU, STAYING HOME AND NOT COMING OUT, EVER.

yes i got the 'zing' and i think its corny and uh i actually am arguing with the idea that there should be 'smoking bars' or whatever

i guess i'm in favour of smoking pubs and non-smoking pubs (would be interesting to see which places opt for what and differences to business) - esp. as it wouldn't really affect my social life either way.

was directly responding to this

Now he feels singled out.

in what way was "waaah waah waah" a direct response to that?

he should feel singled out

no teddy bear? come on.

the teddy bear is only for you.

i started off responding to 'that one guy who quit' and you started getting all aggy about it, excuse me

i mean am i wrong or did i not start the 'wah wah' until you called me the 'most obnoxious person in the thread' for actually discussing the issue with 'one guy'

I love it when Ally calls people obnoxious. It's like jaymc calling someone defensive.

hugs, ally.

deej, nobody likes someone telling them they shouldn't be able to do what they want to do. Look at NAMBLA!

Best to just sit in smug silence as the USA goes totally smoke-free. Then, when they all start saying, "ya know, I actually feel better! Fuck them all! I'm glad I quit! Haha, I win!" you can pull out your gun and shoot them.

jesus fucking christ

too much?

yeah yeah i'll back off now, didnt really want this to be playing the
http://pics.vintagepostcards.com/f/f4153.jpg

about this but i was sensing a weird persecution complex or something i dunno

really? You "complain loudly" at, like, homeless people on the bus? "You STINK! Also, GET A JOB!"

absolutely. i consider it one of my many free public services.

Even though I'm a smoker and have had this stance in the past I have to admit, the 'but drinkers!' argument doesn't really wash, being as it doesn't really affect other people's health (aggresive drunks bashing ppl etc notwithstanding, but thats a strawman). I've always also argued for smoker's bars... I can't see why not. I'm ok with it all, but I'm going to find nightclubs weird to handle next month when our bans come in.

Pubs here, not a problem. We have a lot of beer gardens here; outdoor areas you can drink in, sometimes even heated/covered but outside. So a lot of places will still be fine. Just not actual clubs, which is the one I will have to deal with.

smoking in bars, cafes, restaurants, workplaces etc. is completely banned in NZ, since a couple of years ago. before that, there was this one smoke-free bar... it lasted a few months before going bust, 'cos everyone knows the cool kids are all smokers :). personally, i was gutted when i first found out about the smoking bans, but guess what? now i only go to bars (in winter) that feature covered outside smoking areas. and then i stay out there all night. it surely is the best way to meet new people.

the 'but drinkers!' argument doesn't really wash, being as it doesn't really affect other people's health (aggresive drunks bashing ppl etc notwithstanding, but thats a strawman).

alcohol abuse is possibly a bigger problem in binge-drinking britain than wherever you are. because we have publicly funded health, the question of whether it 'only' affects the person who drinks is moot: we all have to pay for people who abuse their bodies.* and the effects of alcohol abuse are much more widespread than aggressive drunks. it fucks up families.

*i don't really think it's productive going down that path; but i think the smoking ban opens the door to a lot more legislation of this kind, limiting healthcare access to people if they're fatteys/extreme sports people/drunks/addicts/etc.

Hahaha god, I can assure you heartily it is a BIG PROBLEM in Australia too.

Also, I agree with you abt booze.

let battle commence! http://blogs.orange.co.uk/news/health/index.html

the comments on the anti-ban thread are hilarious, to whit:

We are on the way down the road to Nazism,since it was Hitler and his gang of thugs who FIRST brought in this totally discriminating law in...I say to the anti freedom trash...If you don`t like the smell of smoke..,GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN...Our Fathers and Fore-Fathers fought and died in a couple of World wars,and other so called smaller wars,all in the NAME OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY..Shame on you Westminister

and

who said smoking is a killer? how do they know that for sure, have they implanted a set amount of babies in 2 rooms for 50 years or more cos that is the only way u know for sure. they only go on statistics cos more people died who smoked but remember there used to be nearly about 80% of the country smoking so u would get a higher figure, all the nasties in fags are in your food 2 and basicaly in your everyday life, there are more dangers in pollution from cars and lorry's than fags. did you know theres over 1000 chemicals in coffee alone most likely the same that r in fags.drink is a bigger killer than smoking

and my favourite

i would like to no why i can not smoke in my own work van who the hell is that hurting i have checked under the seat for do gooders non found this law is an ass,they are going to waist millions trying to enforce this pile of crap i agree not smoking in pubs ect but my personal space is rubish , so if i fancy a fag its just pull on the hard shoulder on the m25 then is it.

gawd bless England.

the 'hard shoulder' bit makes it art.

there used to be nearly about 80% of the country smoking

uh?

during the war you got em for free. a LOT of people smoked.

i agree with deej

They showed this program on, I think it was, Blackpool and the problem of smoking. I don't know why they lumped those together, maybe some twisted fucked up guy thought it was a great idea, who knows. Anyway as much as I miss spmoking, it was kinda sad to see what the long term effects are of smoking and how smokers can really block that out.

it was kinda sad to see what the long term effects are of smoking and how smokers can really block that out.

It's funny!
http://www.perpetualkid.com/productimages/lg/ASHT-0645.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42449000/jpg/_42449836_smokeban203pa.jpg

8080:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2119888,00.html

I'm a smoker who lives in California. I moved out here from the mid-west, and it was a real shock at first not to be able to smoke in bars. I thought it would really bother me, but the weather is so mild here that I almost like it.

There are a few bars that manage to get around the smoking rules somehow, and when I go to them I find that I feel shittier the next day from chain smoking.

All in all, I'd say I like the camaraderie of the "smoke pit" (which unfortunately for some neighborhoods, is the sidewalk out in front of the bar), but really I tend to go out less than I did before. Maybe it's because I'm just getting old and would rather hang out with my cat and my girl than a bunch of poon-chasing "bros", or maybe it's because at home the beer is cheaper, the music better, and I can enjoy both with a smoke, the way it's meant to be.

All in all, I live a pretty isolated life. Non-smokers are fine, but anti-smokers can fuck right off. When smoking is illegal everywhere, they'll find some other thing to cry about. I've no room in my life for those types.

a bunch of poon-chasing "bros"

I want to be one of their number

lol

They must imitate the early Quakers, retreat to a hut in the hills, and light a pipe of peace with the world. But the big clunking fist will get them in the end.

pwned.

it's ok, i get it, you hate our freedom.

ally, you have really good skin for a smoker!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6912900.stm

"A former British heavyweight boxer was shot when he asked customers at a club to stop smoking."

that's the mean streets of, er, Fulham for ya.

the guy is SIX FEET NINE as well!

but apparently the smokers were actually outside, so frankly (according to my flatmate's gf last night) he should've just shut up.