Are you, or have you ever been, a member of sinister?

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Come on, 'fess up, sinister (the mailing list for people who like belle & sebastian) has now unoffically taken over ILE, after secretly running the UK indie/interweb scene for the past three years*. Is there anyone left who hasn't been on it at some point? also those of you who have, extoll the virtues/point out it's not as good as it used to be/explain how it changed your life to the rest (bonus point for first description of grange hill syndrome).

*It is my hypothesis that there are only 70 UK indie people on the interweb, and certainly all of these have been on sinister at one point...

― CarsmileSteve, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

What do you take me for? No no and thrice no.

― Pete, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

New tweekids answers!

― CarsmileSteve, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

what the ?!>@32#*

― chaki, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

On the contrary Carsmile, it is we who have lured the Sinistah flock into our scary world.

No I have never been a member of Sinister BUT someone pretending to be me signed up and posted that indie kids article and got a bollocking for their impersonatory nefarities. I've never found out who it was.

― Tom, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You ARE kidding, right?

― Andrew L, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I did think about joining for real I have to admit, but partner- swapping isn't my thing, dig?

― Tom, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

For a very very short while back in 97 or 98, but unsubscribed because I was very busy and decided to get rid of all my mailing lists. I had the mistaken impression that it was horrible, but Nick put me right and I guess it was one of my other mailing lists.

― Nicole, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yes. Remember Jasper Buckaroo and Toby Titwank? Although its all this type of crap these days. Needless to say I unsubbed a while back after actively disliking it for a long time. I'm not going to go any deeper into it as although that list brought SHEDLOADS of GRATE things into my life (including some of you lot) it also brought a load of hideous crap which thankfully I can now leave behind.

― Sarah, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yes

ILE = Sinister Sunset Home, innit!

BTW, Welcome Linda/Lulou/Occasional Sinister List Mum :)

― David, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh no Sarah! It has inspired some people to be creative and make things that you don't like!

I know I'm always bloody literal and po-faced, but I think it's great. I've been an active member for 4 years; I went to the first picnic, and have barely missed one since; I set up a club night bascially for the sinister massive, which has been a decent success; I've travelled to America and relied on the comfort of strangers of a sinister nature; I have pulled, including one member of THIS community and also my recently-ex long-term girlfriend. I have made literally dozens of friends, and several very good ones. I have been spurred to do any number of things I wouldn't have done through lazinees, apathy or ignorance, including writing, travelling, playing football, clubbing, sweet lovin' and for that and more Sinister has been a massivley important and positive part of my life.

I'm not going to bang on about the bad things, as I know there are many others who'll do it for me. But don't anyone dare dismiss it - it's been a complete (and very much for the better) life changer.

p.s. Archel's on it too.

― Mark C, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yeah yeah. I'm also a member of the Bilderburg Group. And a Mason.

― Archel, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

yes, I was sinister v. briefly in early '98 and have been there more or less continuously since April 2000. I've met a lot of great (should that be GRATE?) ppl through the list and if it hadn't been for the link to ILM from Carsmile's blog I would never have been on ILE. How many other ppl took that route I wonder? My gig-going (esp. London gig-going) has increased quite substantially since joining sinister. Quite possibly I would never have seen Camera Obscura, Vermont, Ballboy, Baxendale or Sodastream, plus countless other bands I've forgotten, were it not for the list. It's good to see Linda here and Archel and Bappsy...who'll be next.....?

― MarkH, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i are haf NEVAH been on Sinistah as a lot of them (NB. not my grate mates MarkC, Cabbage, the Mell St Boys, G and anyone else i know and love that is also on Sinistah) seemed to be like the indie MAFIA, there definitely seemed to be the prevailing attitude that you COULD NOT criticise anything that B&S ever did and that even Stuart Murdoch's flatulence was like holy wind or something. if you didn't turn up to "do"s in the REGULATION flat shoes and hairgrips and cardigan and hello kitty gear the girls would sneer at you and the boys would snub you. given my healthy disrespect for UNIFORMS, man, and equally healthy lack of reverence for B&S i always felt like i wouldn't fit in (even though i like Hello Kitty but like AFRO KEN more). there were certain people affiliated with the sinister crowd who quite literally made my SKIN CRAWL. having said that if it wasn't for Sinister i wouldn't have met my wuvvly boyfwiend. so there.

― katie, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

**Camera Obscura, Vermont, Ballboy, Baxendale or Sodastream**

Oh Lord. Someone tell me these bands don't exist!

― Dr. C, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sinister = Britain's largest internet child porn ring (sez FatNick)

― DG, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Mark: I have a right to say what I think about it. Fine, you've not had huge fallout from it, I have and I'm glad to be over it. The good things that I have had from Sinister have all been in the past and I think it's a lot healthier for me, personally, clinging onto something which is not at all good for me, anymore. I would never dismiss what it was, but I couldn't give a monkeys what it is right now apart from the odd gawp in fascinated horror.

― Sarah, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Although this thread is hitting my head with a HUGE HAMMER saying 'dammit mail your ex-sinistah friends who you haf lost contact with' chiz. Awww feel the WUV.

― Sarah, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sinister RoXoR.

― DV, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

a funny thing about sinister is that even my friends on there always had a go at me for liking the "wrong" type of music (in one notable case, Yo La Tengo) and now they all love this music. i just found it cliquey and narrow-minded to a large degree. and my experience of the "creative" side of it was that when a friend of mine started a band and happened to slag off B&S at around the same time, everyone just rounded on him and slated his band. not nice.

― katie, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No. Or not really anyway. Toyed with the idea of subscribing in 97 (maybe 98) after falling in love with The State I'm In, but got the ph34r after browsing through the archives. My memory is a bit fuzzy about this tho, it might have been the case that I subscribed but ran away before I got posting rights rather than just looking at the archives.

― RickyT, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Camera Obscura, Vermont, Ballboy, Baxendale or Sodastream

Ah, but they do. And at least one of them are very fine indeed.

― RickyT, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Who are belle & sebastian? (I didn't click on your link)

― Jeff W, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i ph34r the can of worms that Jeff may have unwittingly opened... they are a twee Scottish band who have made a couple of almost perfect records and also ARGUABLY a big load of old dross. there, that should cover all bases.

― katie, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yes. Either it's not as good as it used to be or I just can't be bothered/don't have the time to read it all anymore, although I do try and keep up infrequently. Though possibly my lack of time is because of all the other directions it has sent me off in.

Basically, I wouldn't have a life if not for Sinister. Sad but true. So I am grateful.

― Ally C, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Aw Ally. I'm sure you would - it would just be very different and poss not as enjoyable (read: 'full of mentalists). Yeah, I see what you mean about being grateful for what it did. Blah. I feel wrong in the head.

― Sarah, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

mmmmm...worms

so there's like 2 of 'em, is there? belle and ...

― Jeff W, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Yes. Maybe I'm a bit thicker skinned than some sinister folk, but the bad things about it bounce off me. You ARE allowed to delete the badly written/boring/obnoxious posts that occasionally get sent. On the plus side I also have 'pulled', had footy matches (one in particular springs to mind!) and spent some lovely afternoons. It's not fair to say that everyone on S is regulation Indie. My little brother joined and he's a townie.

ILE (which I mostly just read and not contribute due to my wordage defficiencies) is a more intimidating place if you ask me, but that's cos it's more growndup.

I'm off back to my dingy bedsit to cry and listen to B&S now....

― bappsy, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

NO! jel = sinister free!

― jel --, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

ILE (which I mostly just read and not contribute due to my wordage defficiencies) is a more intimidating place if you ask me, but that's cos it's more growndup.

ILE growndup????

― Nicole, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I think ILE probably is more intimidating, but that's partly because it's not actively trying to be inclusive or make people feel welcome in the way that a community generally does. It's still in the stage of being a community by happy accident, whereas Sinister has accepted its community-status and is I suspect much more welcoming.

― Tom, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

No never, I own one B&S album, which is pleasant enough.

I had never heard of Sinister until I discovered ILE.

I defend my right to make my own lifestyle and go to the SECOND weekend of All Tomorrow's Parties without jaws hitting the floor at my freakish choice.

― Anna, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nicole - ILE growndup????

Yeah, in it's willingness to discuss E!V!E!R!Y!T!H!I!N!G, and stimulate the mind, as opposed to the *sometimes* introverted insecure tendancies of sinister. ILE is still erm playful, but it has got over itself if you know what I mean? I don't think sinister has.

― bappsy, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That sounded a bit harsh. Too tired. Sinister conversation often gives me the feeling of having missed a week of school and not being quite able to catch up.

― Anna, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

the lizards reveal themselves!! blimery that was quick i bought a book by chomsky on 9-11 only LAST NIGHT!!

― mark s, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But but but ILE has Simpsons porn! And I do not say that as any sort of recommendation or compliment, either...

― Nicole, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Tis okay Sarah. You got the bad side, I never did (excepting the odd ANNOYING CRETIN not any of you lot I hasten to add), so I live in ignorant bliss. Mmmmm.....ignorant.

― Ally C, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I was on the Sinister list from Jan '98 until late summer 2000. It played host to a bunch of fantastic comic writers during much of that time (and possibly still does), which was my main reason for hanging around; many of them are now here. The discussions, when they centred on B&S at all (which wasn't often), were scurrilous, irreverent, and sometimes downright filthy (hello Susannah, wherever you are).

I suspect that the sort of stuff I couldn't really stand to read (and, which, towards the end, I was deleting without even skimming) is now in the ascendancy and, to be honest, has possibly always defined the list (and B&S fans in general) in the eyes of the casual observer. Or maybe it's still full of hilarious folks, all too young for me to understand.

I'll always be eternally grateful to the Edinburgh McCartneys for keeping it going - it did, after all, provide me with an instant social circle upon moving to London in '98. Some of these people even still talk to me.

― Michael Jones, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The lizards live under sinister sub-sinister stones, as it happens.

Sinister brought me all kinds of good things, including some of my best friends. I met at least five certifiable (in one sense or another) pop geniuses through my involvement with that list. For a while it seemed a surprisingly broadminded group of variously benign and malign nutters, and the funniest / most exciting place on the ENTIRE INTERWEB! Now, I feel much the same way about it as the lying cur Ally C does.

Katie: your friend publicly criticises B&S / "they all" (really?) publicly criticise your friend's band. Who was supposed to be in the wrong in this exchange?

― Tim, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I meant, uh, what Jonesy said. I think Susannah might like ILE.

― Tim, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Mr Hopkings: well my point was really that the Sinisterites involved couldn't stand to see their darling slagged off (though to be fair my friend, who was a member for ages and then left about a year ago, was probably being deliberately inflammatory) and so instead of being reasonable just slagged off his band WHO THEY HAD NEVER HEARD... it's just that kind of indie crap that i can't be bothered with. "my band's better than yours" it's sooooooo ugh.

― katie, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

um also, when i say "slagged off" probably just gave a bad review of Jonathon David or something...

― katie, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sarah, I was just referring to the link you provided rather than to your attitude to Sinister as a whole. I wholly agree you have the right to think whatever you like - and I also agree that there are people on sinister who don't even understand that concept. However (and I seem to make this excuse increasingly often) the average age on sinister is probably a good decde younger than that of the active posters here, and they have a lot to experience, many of them.

But regardless of the chaff, as Tim, Mike and others have said, the good stuff that's come out of Sinister is Very Good Indeed. It's a bit of a shame that many of the amazing scribes and comic geniuses of the list have moved on - there is a slight feeling of self-fulfilling prophesy when many of the naysayers no longer posting contributed hugely to making it what it is/was at its peak, and are sadly missed as a result.

If I had my way, Tim, Mike, N., Sarah, Edna and Ally would all post regularly and make my little heart bounce for joy*. Peter Miller IS back, though, so if that's a reason to re-subscribe...

*see, this wonderful metaphor is a reason I are now a pro writx0r.

― Mark C, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh - quick meta-question - those on Sinister, do you by and large allow your Sinister chums to meet your non-Sinister ones? And if so, does it work?

― Mark C, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Is there any other kind of review of Jonathon David?

― Pete, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Are Jonathan and David in this band too then? I'm confused.

― Jeff W, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

ISTR Starry saying something nice about it in the last focus group, but otherwise no.

― RickyT, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I like it! So does Fred Solinger, who was nice about it on NYLPM.

― Tom, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Nope.

― Samantha, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I liked it - and I still do! I thought it woz a possible return to some kind of form but sadly not. I still think it's a very good pop song, but then again it does have some emotional context to me now so perhaps without that I'd see it as the same old mimble.

― Sarah, Friday, 12 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Skipping 473 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I met my first internet crush on Sinister!

I wonder what today's equivalent is?

― .stet., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:20 (seventeen years ago) link

A slushy comment on facebook? Customising a special "i wuv j00" lolcat?

(I am really quite embarassed about my negative attitude up there - must have been time of the month innit).

― Sarah, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:23 (seventeen years ago) link

Someone please make a sinister lolcat!!

― Sarah, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:24 (seventeen years ago) link

or indeed alex ~~huntley~~ kapranos

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:55 (seventeen years ago) link

or the guy who played Elliot in ET (allegedly).

― Grandpont Genie, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 11:57 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe Mrs Murdoch will turn up!!!

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:10 (seventeen years ago) link

Rupert's wife?

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:12 (seventeen years ago) link

I am going to see Camera Obscura at the Zodiac next month so I might ask Carey if she's up for it.

― Grandpont Genie, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:17 (seventeen years ago) link

I THINK YOU ARE GREAT CHRONIC UGLY-FACE GIRL. PLEASE DON'T DIE IN A WELL.

Ally C on Friday, 12 April 2002 01:00 (4 years ago)

still one of the top ten posts on ILE ever.

YES i am rereading the whole thread, WHAT OF IT???

― CarsmileSteve, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I hope I will be sufficiently recovered to be able to attend with child, and maybe I'll manage to drag my curmudgeonly husband along too! (can't help feeling that I'm being a bit optimistic though, depending on delivery date) Can't see me making the after picnic party though.

― Vicky, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:34 (seventeen years ago) link

I can't believe I never posted on it before!

― Vicky, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:35 (seventeen years ago) link

i was a member for about a month when i was seventeen. i had discovered belle and sebastian five or six months before and to be honest it was kind of changing my world. (i was essentially on the road to indie-fuxxorism). i guess this was about 1998-99? but despite the warnings on the Sinister website thingy it was just too closed and baffling a conversation for me, so i left!

happy birthday

― sean gramophone, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:36 (seventeen years ago) link

I remember seeing it, but it had a "wait 2 weeks to register" so I wandered off...

― Mark G, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:37 (seventeen years ago) link

i think that is the feature/rule i like best about s-n-st-r

― ken c, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:35 (seventeen years ago) link

It keeps the Random Googlers away, certainly.

― Forest Pines, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:36 (seventeen years ago) link

Lucky old Random Googlers!

― Tom D., Wednesday, 7 March 2007 13:38 (seventeen years ago) link

LOL @ DYING IN WELL
i went to 5th anniversary, pretty great! only time i've ever been to primrose hill, too.

― homosexual II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:13 (seventeen years ago) link

i miss RJG, ally c, and kirsten.
i had a dream about genevieve a few weeks ago--weird.

― homosexual II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 14:24 (seventeen years ago) link

I want to be at big fuck-off party!!! What am I doing in August, let's see....

― Laurel, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:54 (seventeen years ago) link

; )

― RJG, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Laurel in London? Make it so!

― marianna lcl, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:03 (seventeen years ago) link

i would go to this, but i was just in london it seems. maybe in 2009 when i am even older.

― homosexual II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:08 (seventeen years ago) link

maybe Mrs Murdoch will turn up!!!

my first-firm teacher? now that would be a turn-up.

I'm well up for this, heady memories of Sinister picnics past in my head. It is Reading weekend though, which might be something of a problem.

I can't believe I never posted on it before!

Vicky on Wednesday, 7 March 2007 12:35 (4 hours ago)

huh?! that cert...oh, wait - you mean this thread, don't you? heh.

― CharlieNo4, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

first fOrm teacher obv. my first firm teacher was miss gibson.

― CharlieNo4, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I want to be at big fuck-off party!!! What am I doing in August, let's see....

Hmm. Me too!

― molly mummenschanz, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:16 (seventeen years ago) link

what's happened to the PF?

― ken c, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:17 (seventeen years ago) link

i was just wondering that myself.

― homosexual II, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 17:18 (seventeen years ago) link

hi dere!
laurel, let's go to london omg!

― rrrobyn, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 18:12 (seventeen years ago) link

oh man

― ken c, Wednesday, 7 March 2007 18:20 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, even though i was half joking, mostly b/c i don't know whether i will have the $$ or not, i now really really want to come over now b/c there is also this:
SONIC YOUTH August 31 London, England Roundhouse performing Daydream Nation
!!!!!!!!!!

― rrrobyn, Thursday, 8 March 2007 06:09 (seventeen years ago) link

oh, except it is sold out :( hm

― rrrobyn, Thursday, 8 March 2007 06:11 (seventeen years ago) link

I'm going to see Sonic Youth performing Daydream Nation on the Friday at the Roundhouse! i will also be seeing them perform it at the Primavera Sound festival in Barcelona.

My Pines compilation cd was delivered to my house yesterday. There's a Young Marble Giants cover on it.

― Grandpont Genie, Thursday, 8 March 2007 10:25 (seventeen years ago) link

I am against all this bands performing classic albums nonsense. Don't look back, that's what I say.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Thursday, 8 March 2007 11:04 (seventeen years ago) link

you just hate fun.

― Grandpont Genie, Thursday, 8 March 2007 11:05 (seventeen years ago) link

BOOM BOOM xpost.

― Mark G, Thursday, 8 March 2007 11:10 (seventeen years ago) link

okay, but the thing about daydream nation is that it is awesome
xpost

― rrrobyn, Thursday, 8 March 2007 14:52 (seventeen years ago) link

― Steve Shasta, Thursday, 8 March 2007 17:04 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh man, I want to be in London for this! And it is likely to be the only weekend that month when I won't be in furren so...

― Madchen, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:25 (seventeen years ago) link

Be in London! All of you! Yesssssssssss!

― Sarah, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Alexis Petridis should know that he would be very welcome.

― PJ Miller, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link

If I divert funds from my 5k charity run, maybe, just maybe, I can be there.

― JPB, Friday, 9 March 2007 17:53 (seventeen years ago) link

i guess this was about 1998-99? but despite the warnings on the Sinister website thingy it was just too closed and baffling a conversation for me, so i left!

Haha! Sorry Sean.

― Keith, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:12 (seventeen years ago) link

or indeed alex huntley kapranos

IIRC, Alex's sole contribution was to try and flog his copy of Tigermilk was it not!

― Keith, Friday, 9 March 2007 18:17 (seventeen years ago) link

three months pass...

I'd forgotten about this:

Sinister village.

I don't really understand it, even! What was the plan?

― Alba, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 00:27 (seventeen years ago) link

I've never seen it before...

― Keith, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 00:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Oh dear lord. Never saw it, either, and I can't figure it out...?

― Laurel, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 00:55 (seventeen years ago) link

Lolz at Koogy on that list :-)

Yep, that whole thing is a Grate Big Mystery to me too. No wonder people think Sinister people are weird though.

Who's letting me kip on their couch for Sinister picnic weekend then? Sorry, PLEASE someone, can I kip on your couch for Sinister picnic weekend? I have been a house guest of several of you lot before, and appear to still be friends with you all, therefore can recommend myself as OK. I can reward you with booze, if that helps?

― ailsa, Wednesday, 13 June 2007 06:47 (seventeen years ago) link

two months pass...

With a fine disregard for deadlines in honour of Tony Wilson, two days before the event, we has a flyer...

http://idisk.mac.com/stephentrousse/Public/acdof.gif

― Stevie T, Thursday, 23 August 2007 12:46 (seventeen years ago) link

eight years pass...

https://newrepublic.com/article/128497/sinister-history-belle-sebastian-email-list

― i like to CH4 CH4 and i am crazy (jaymc), Monday, 14 March 2016 16:29 (eight years ago) link

Sinister posts by (former) ILXors appear as pull quotes.

― i like to CH4 CH4 and i am crazy (jaymc), Monday, 14 March 2016 16:33 (eight years ago) link

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