Summarise Me!

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Inspired by a Pinefox idea on ILM (but we're more cliquey here so I moved it) - write a 'typical post' by another poster of your choice which sums them up. (You can say who it is or make us guess.)

Tom, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think we already covered this in the Who do you do. thread. Though I have to say that Tim Hopkins impersonation of dreamy Stevie T's style left a lot to be desired.

Pete, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's the ass thread Pete - a favourite of mine to be sure but...

Tom, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is ass thread another word for a g-string?

Emma, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Word, Tom! HEH HEH HEH! DJ Summariser is big in my house - a crucial mix of space dub rock, ELO and Kraftwerk. Chillin'! Kinda like obscuring Mr. Blue Sky with a few herbal clouds. HA! HA! HA!

Who's that then?

Dr. C, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You are Omar and I claim my five joints.

Tom, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

... so sad ...

mark s, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

doomintroll, mark?

Nicole, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Cunts.

You just dont get it do you?

Music is (should be) about love and having a good time and getting your rocks off and how it felt the first time.

Your all sitting around pretending to be friends of Jacques Derida.

Sad. Or it would be if it wasn't so funny.

eheheheheheheheheheh.

the pinefox, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

sp: don't

kevan, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

like, pffff, hullo?

[this is cleverer than you think, by the way], Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Once again i have to take my hat off to you people. This Jacques Derida thread, i thought it was going to be about a new kind of chocolate or car. While i am sure you are all quite wonderful people, i cannot fathom what 'i' can 'only' 'assume' is more of 'that' stuff that populates those charts that you all seem to like so much. But when i say 'i' who is the 'i' that is being referred to? Perhaps the inestimable Nick D could clear things up with those blue lines of his.

gareth, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Funnily enough I was thinking about this today while leafing through Paul Muldoon’s collection on poetry & landscape (a bit marred by the usual empty post-Joyceisms – but I have never really Dug P.M.) there’s a phrase in there about how lyric poetry is the ladder over which the artist would escape over the wall of bourgeois society, only to find himself back in the garden of feudalism. nick drake always struck me as being still stuck in that impasse...

Also Camille Paglia has something relevant to say in Sexual Personae (?) but it's about Suzi Quatro so I shall not repeat it :)

Teresa Saurus, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Gareth, you're Mr. Pinefox. Tom - yes I *was* Omar.

Dr. C, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This game sucks ass. Yesterday I was playing a game where hippies held our heads down in the hot tub and we weren't allowed to breathe until the Turbonegro song finished. If we won we got to put our head in a keg next round. But I hate games anyway.

TM, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You're Otis W, and I claim something or other...

Dr. C, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

blurillaz!

gareth, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You're all wrong, even though I'm drunk now at work. And although I look particularly hot today, I have a large ass.

AllyTheMod, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Cor! That's all well and good, but who or what are blurillaz? Sigh. I would love to believe they could write a love song, but sadly I'm forced to accept that they're probably some sort of "house" music "crew" that you would have me listen to.

Stevie T often says (brilliantly, if I may say so), "If it isn't broken, it won't need fixing", and I'm sure that this may indeed be true.

Dr. C, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Shrimp s ar e cool. Als o prawn s on barb e cu e s.

th e pin e shrimp, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

There’s three variants of this game actually: the one where you have to explain what someone else’s schtick is (= quite boring so DUD), the one where you have to adopt another poster’s style (= CLASSIC as above posts prove), and the one where you have to mix the subject matter of one poster with the style of yet another poster (= probably CLASSIC, but very hard).

Really it’s a way of understanding other people’s points of view better by understanding their language I suppose. Not that understanding DJ Martian’s language will help ;)

Foxy Tigger, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

my cock stands up and salutes you all

Geoff, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well I am a horrible misanthrope so I would have to say I hate all things that have to do with cheerful times and the like. I lived in the States for a while and I can tell you albany NY is quite crappy as a town, though.

I love my danny and skinnydrome rock boys. But I hate anything purple . Also, my hair is an attack of blonde sky snakes. Paul, why dont you pick up a nice loaf of tuna when you come home so I can knock your silly arse in with it!

Mike Hanle y, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's so accurate I was about to make a note to buy tuna on the way home! Damn.

Paul Strange, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

|'|| +4k3 +h3 34z`/ \|/4`/ 0|_|+.

|`|. |#., Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This thread sux0r. EvErYoNe will just end up oFfEnDiNg each other, and fIgHtInG, and suchlike. Hang on, maybe it r0x0r after all.

x0x0

kevan, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

>>> Sorry, I think the Stooges are overrated pub-rock, really

Pinefox - I can't believe that you are saying that seriously. *Why* do you say it, Pinefox, *why*? I'm going to have to go away and think about this. Am too busy to read all threads at the moment, which is frustrating, but will try and respond later.

Tackle From Behind, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I really want to join in here, but I'm afraid of being too mean, and I'm trying to be nice.

Sean, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hey Pine! That last one can't be me, can it? I mean it didn't mention the Ramones, or someone obscure from 1981. Did it. Like last week, beer is calling, so I'm too busy to continue with this thread. Will reply later.

Dr. C, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Baran is right. I believe that if you'd refer to the archives, you'd find that we've had a thread that discussed this very subject.

http://www.ilxor.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=005kVp

Nick "No, Not Really" Dastoor, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

nick is lovely, isn't he? but i still don't know how he makes those blue letters; he, of course, knows because he's as intelligent as he is lovely. i, however, do not know.

(again, i'm not really) the pinefox, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This is the very definition of tartiness.

All y, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(waiting sadly = [insert comical adj here])

Clever Cognomen, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ambulance.

Mike Hanle y, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Impressions = Dud if = 'Smart' posters (who are actually NOT Smart at ALL but FULES) making other (equally / more witty and fab) posters feel bad :(. Impressions = Great if they mean everywun is getting their semantik rox off and METAMORPHOSING in LANGWIDGE!! (memory of small mark's 1st experience of Quatermass [repeat] and crazee dissolution of boundaries, oh!! itz the mirrorphaze!!)

('Smart' posters in above absolutely != Josh who is not a fule like mark s but mark has online ninja power so is kewl. :))

Mark II, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

All y in an ambulance holding a big strawberry tart!

Mike Hanle y, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ally crushed by a novelty sized tart? I have a strange sense of humour. The colour brown always makes me laugh!

Dan Perry, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Beef crisps used to make me laugh. The brown thing could have come into it. Sorry, I can't think of anyone to do an impression of and anyway I'm not smart enough to do it an a witty and stylish way. I'm glad it's not just me who has noticed the pinefox's obsessive referencing of me. He's quite odd, the pinefox. I must have it out with him next time I see him IN REAL LIFE.

Nick, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Why is Mike just doing impressions of himself now?

Ally, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dan, I have brown hair. I was the only girl in sixth grade with brown hair. Then I dyed it red. The dye came out and it was brown again.

Nicole, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Real Life. I should get back to it.

Time to stop this crap and watch some footie/shag burds/pound a lager.

Instead of posting lame-arse pseudo-intellectual shite on this muso-infested bitch. AAAAAAAAAGH WHY am I doing this? I must be bored.

Tracer Hand, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's quite alright, Nicole. I have brown hair as well. Should we do a classic or dud on it?

gareth, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Brown!!!!

Dan Perry, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hey, if someone is going to imitate me at least get my email address right. Hmph.

Nicole, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm getting so confused, it should be against the rules to use other people's emails, it makes it way too difficult. GRRRR.

Ally, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Don't worry Nicole. What is a name? I can tell you alot of names, but really, it's a name. Names are varying degrees of differential brouhahas that once associated to a human (such as yourself) (and only if you are accessorizing properly with Paul Frank) that a name, your name, can be understood as a name that is yours and not someone else's.

Now off to drink some wine and dance to Stereolab! Weeee!

Nicolas, where are you?

Weeee!!!

suzy, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

As much as it shocks me, personally, on varying degrees of levels, which are inherent in reaching Maslow's Hierachy of Needs, some procedures should be put into place, on this thread to stop what Ally has pointed out vigilantly as the use of others emails.

What about the children?

gareth, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Not really mad, just that using people's emails make this whole imitation beotch a bit confusing.

Nicole, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If anything this thread should be MORE difficult and confusing.

tracer q, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

def: name.s: con. fu. sing. esp. when I am (w)right and leaving out a strict disc.(ourse) on romanian gods and music I must get to gestalt theory of freuds the "uncanny" which is uncarnage with a lovely wink and smile.

this is grate. i a/m about to post my letter to f/riend which is unqualified hans bellmer (obscure german surrealist to those in the know (cheeky wink at syzy, mym*s and kate) which is fabantastic joe orton odyessy. 'nuff talk off to (w)right my fasc. book. (and maybe) bake which is grate.

mark s., Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Satire, I'm afraid, is best left to:

a. people who can actually get a real sense of character (this writer or writer(s) have been off in some significant ways).

b.people with the balls to out themselves instead of covertly being bitter and bitchy.

junichiro, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

OH GAWD!

WILL EVERYONE STOP DOING THIS!!! IT'S FUN AND I HATE IT!!! I *HATE* IT!!!!

I...

I...

*head explodes*

masonic boom, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i've kept my name and email on every post.

ethan, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Def(ine) off: Juno. In defi(e)nding off, when may either be "off" or get "off" or like the song by Prince, appropriately titled "Gett Off". If one leaves and is off. Then what is off? And more appropriately, as discussed in the (circa 1989 piece) 'The writer is off and on'. Does electricity factor into objective/subjective conclusions of evidentiary appeals of feeling that the wor(l)d off is off but not on? What are everyone's feelings on this?

mark s., Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

that reminds me the simpsons where homer eats the lethal japanese fish, and the mst3k where they beat up col.sanders.

ethan, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Umm..

Bugs?

Mike Hanle y, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Descending into self-parody faster than my gran could spot a fake Chanel on rue Cambon (which is in Paris, a city most provincials are scared of). Or so I was telling Tjinder from Cornershop and Gavin Turk over the Asahis earlier. Momus, you say? Name not on list. Not coming in.

Martin Amis = silly little man who wears safari suits to his readings.

suzy, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

you are all making me sick with your scenester ways but i know hwo yuo realy are.

i will actualy punblish a book when suzy blows rupert murdoch while taking it up the jaxy from naomi klein and her dad with the tickler dildo.

i try so hard to be so SOUL but

no buts

this time i'm gone gone gone

i mean it

no really

willie wanka, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Twunt.

suzy, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

sp: "You"

[And yes Mark, I did notice, thank you.]

The PineDG, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I can't believe no one has done Robin.

Patrick, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The terms "fish" and "barrel" spring to mind.

Nicole, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

where you have to mix the subject matter of one poster with the style of yet another poster (= probably CLASSIC, but very hard).

I want Mike Hanle y's subject matter combined with Robin's style.

Patrick, Friday, 27 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

blow

or don't

dave q, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

So I finally check out ILE and within seconds find bloody Dr.C doing an impression of me :)

Omar, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ahem. That will be enough of these impersonations. People may take offense. In the future, please discuss The Critique of Pure Reason instead.

(ILM Moderator mk. II), Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This is ILE: your jurisdiction stops at the county line.

mark s, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame1.html

has a bunch of archetypes of bulletin board users. I'm sure we'll find everybody fits into one of these archetypes (thanks to Nathalie who brought this one to my attention, she claims she's Evil Granny). Contrary to popular belief I'm not Bong but gravitate towards Evil Clown and already have been accused by friends of being Blowhard (indeed said friends are already having fights over this ;).

Omar, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Crikey. I leave you kids alone for 5 years and I get back to find *this*. It feels like watching a Pro-Celebrity Mixed Trebles match between Hana Mandlikova (and her Sisters [of Mercy]), Mandy Smith (watched with characteristic intentness by husband Mark E.), Penelope Keith Richards, Keith Chegwin, Czech nearly-win man Ivan Lendl, and Stuart Storer (just back from a 3-month loan spell at Chester City). But that’s another Story.

No time or inspiration to contribute properly right now – I think that bleeping noise from the other room may be neither the new microwave nor the latest triple CD from Zebrugge’s Anti-Oedipal Recordings (arrived this am packaged in shiny pink paper with *miniature astronauts* on it; standout track so far: I Am A Movie, Tone/Less by ToenDrift Collective AC), but the chap from Delta Health Systems offering me another chance to make up the numbers on a shortlist. Ta-ta for now...

Michael's Bones, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Richard, when you've finished making generalisations about reggae, perhaps you could tell me which reggae you think is 'tuneless and emotionally dull'. Personally I can think of a lot of reggae that I find neither tuneless nor emotionally dull, but then I happen to like reggae. I get the impression that you're someone who doesn't like reggae, which is fair enough, but I don't see much point in just announcing that personal opinion to everyone. If there was a point that I've missed, though, I'd be happy to have you explain to me what it was.

Robin, I, like you, have spent a lot of time in Wells and my memory of the place is not like the one you describe at all. Of course that could be because one memory is yours and one is mine, but I'm not sure that gets us very far. If we're going to pass judgements on places then I think we should try and discuss things that we can agree are actually there, rather than arguing about descriptions that are unrecognizable to each other. If I've misread your post then I apologize, and I'd like to hear you explain what it was I misread in your post and how I should have read it.

General Manly Hopkins, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

*looks around, squints, scratches head* No impressions of me so far? DEATH TO YOU ALL.

Seriously, though, I have no need of human attention now. My bootlegs of every show from My Bloody Valentine's 1988 European tour just arrived in the mail. *scurries away in expectant glee*

sundar subramanian, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I live in the dullest, dreariest, most provincial city on earth where public transport has been illegalised by the totalitarian socialist government of that bigoted statist Tony Blair. The lefties have banned anyone from getting a bus after 9 pm so you have to go home from a gig walking five miles in freezing July rain every night. All British folk fans are fascists dreaming it was 400 years ago. The only magazine I read is the Spectator which is a liberal right-wing weekly which is the only magazine that believes in freedom of the individual to say Enoch was right. Fuck the ugly young Sussex girls taking up my restaurant space. Anyone with too much hair under their arms should be thrown back into the dirty grey English sea. I wish I was in California again. But I don't have a grudge against anyone!!!!!!

(p.s. Reynard: your imitation of Tim H is genius)

Tarden Q, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I remember Public Enemy seemed incredibly vital and exciting at the time, but it seems so long ago now. I feel my disillusionment is yet another sign of growing old, as I now spend my days dreaming of Pembrokeshire, and dread the grey and cold every winter. What do you mean exactly?

David, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tim H: what and where is this "Wells" of which you speak?

the pinerobin, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Wells is a horribly twee little cathedral city in Somerset where I had the deep and profound misfortune to spend my formative years. There is a boarding school attached to the cathedral which has an even stuffier attitude than the school Tom endured, and that's about it. I am deeply thankful to have escaped. Once every summer I briefly wish I was back for the festival of choral music, and then I look at the lineup and become still more grateful for Bermondsey.

Robin, I have the feeling that you're currently listening to the Pentangle or similar automatically Tory English folk music. I know that you consider this music to have profound left-wing origins, but all the historical accounts prove otherwise, and anyway William Morris would have been horrified by everything else you listen to. For all your championing of Common Ground, I can find on their website no acceptance of urban areas, in which the vast majority of British people live, and their activities are based on a false, deluded dream of what people want to do in their spare time, the culturology of the pre-Raphaelites ludicrously applied to the modern, flexible, mobile society of the Blair era.

There is an old punk slogan I am very close to rehashing here.

Tim H, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tim H: I don't understand most of what you say, as usual, but I take exception to your reference to "automatically Tory English folk music" that Robin supposedly listens to. Robin, though his posts often go above my head, is a clever young man with admirable liberal views, and I cannot believe that he would buy into such ideas. An apology is due, I think.

the pinerobin, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tim: have you ever seen the 1963 BTF film "Omnibus For All"? When it jumpcuts straight from the optimistic post-war New Britain of Stevenage town centre to the ancient winding streets of Wells, it really seems like a journey of a century within a year. I'm sure you'd be fascinated, Tim.

Pinefox: I couldn't have put it better myself.

Thanks for support as ever, David. I hope you enjoy your holiday in Pembrokeshire. Will you be going to North Norfolk again next year?

(p.s. I am sending myself up here)

Robin Carmody, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i just remembered that robin has tried to turn other threads into this thread before.

ethan, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Obviously Profundus Maximus.

Nitsuh, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i love p diddy. rofl. he haw. rap is real music..serious. they gots like some guys talkin bout bitches and fat beats!

ethan, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i've always loved people who say 'rofl' because i mentally hear it as 'roffle' and it reminds of the hamburglar (robble robble robble!).

ethan craig padgett, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

sp: hamburger. ya bloody wankers

the pinefox, Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Nooooooo HAMBURGLAR. The character. From McDonald's. Ass.

Now someone paodiddyize me.

JM (No, really. It's me), Saturday, 28 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

thay have a mad cow in bloody england! a mad cow.

the pinefox, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

To repeat what others have said: using someone else's e-mail address = major DUD. Anyway, in what way is that last post meant to resemble my writing? Ya bloody wanker (another phrase we don't use where I come from).

the pinefox, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

On ILM it's grounds for instant deletion (I think quite properly, even when it's NOT being done maliciously): unfortunately the ILE Moderator has not yet arisen from his slumbers.

mark s, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What's wrong with Enoch Light?

dave q, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Not to be confused with Enoch-Lite, eh?

mark s, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Was the 'eh' supposed to be me, or Anthony?

dave q, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

>>> walking five miles in freezing July rain every night.

Nice absurdist touch.

the pinefox, Sunday, 29 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I would come into this far too late. And does anyone even *try* to imitate me? FEH on you all! All you need to do is have me grouse about the need to create the board in the first place. ;-)

Ned Raggett, Monday, 30 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

about 20 posts up. compare to your actual post.

sundar subramanian, Monday, 30 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Viva! ;-)

Ally Raggett, Tuesday, 31 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Zing!

Greg, Tuesday, 31 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

*flounces off*

fred raggett, Tuesday, 31 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I apologize to Sundar for not reading closely enough. But I heard that tour was a bit terrible. ;-)

As for the rest, you have made my day and I can go swan off and pretend I'm Lord Alfred Douglas or something. Ah, the virtues of being a kept boy.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

two years pass...
!

jeremy jordan (cruisy), Monday, 19 April 2004 05:02 (twenty-one years ago)

It's true you know.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 19 April 2004 05:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Pimp me!

Oh, that's a different thread.

Skottie, Monday, 19 April 2004 05:14 (twenty-one years ago)

four years pass...

I just read Tim Hopkins' impression of Robin C, and I thought it was me doing an impression of Tim H, or maybe me doing an impression of Tim H doing an impression of Robin C (honestly), until I realized I hadn't written it at all.

Some stunning material here, but still not the classic Dr C.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 15:14 (seventeen years ago)


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