Who gets to use the word Fag

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Kathleen Hanna on Femminst Sweepstakes,it sounds cliched and kind of offensive , so are only gay men allowed to use it?

― anthony, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Of course, in Britain it means something much more abominable than an invert. It means a cigarette.

― Momus, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I guess its like that way white guys can't go up to black guys and say "What's up nigger?" Or the way my gay freind said he wanted to open a "hot gay club" named The Gas CHamber to annihilate all the gays in Kansas City. You are only allowed to use a derogatory term or for that matter make dark sick jokes if you belong to the gang. I mean, its not like Mentally Retardted people are rebuked for calling each other retards! As a white hetero male , I am allowed to go up to a whm and say " Hi Honkie!"

― mike hanle y, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No, Mike, you've got to say 'Hi honkie breeder prick'...

― Momus, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why Momus, you flatter me. Er, wait.

― Ned Raggett, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So, the "butt end of a fag" would be something entirely different in the States, eh Momus.

― Miguel, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Or maybe not, both being hot, smelly and wet with saliva.

― Miguel, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

good lord....

can anyone tell me if Kathleen is gay, also carrie brownstein

i dont think the homo pop. have reposessed, owned, reclaimed (whatever) the word faggot to nearly the same degree as the n' word has. Unfortunately it is i think still more acceptable to be bigoted in regards to homosexuals than blacks/ africans. note that i am more comfortable saying one than the other but would likely never say either in real life (ie outside of a theoretical discussion) I think it is for me because i have been point blank asked by my black friends not to ever use the n. so i don't.

― Ron, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I wuv Kathleen. Never much cared for Bikini Kill though. Last night was TOPS. Peaches was so much fun. Le Tigre was poliphunk.

― nathalie, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Some gay men possitively prefer the word fag or faggot to gay or queer. If you know that's the case with your current company, then it's more than acceptably, it's positively polite! My oldest gay friend is considerably less likely to break any of your limbs if you call him a faggot than if you call him gay. If your attitude is right, that is. I've not been stupid enough to try calling any black people, however near and dear, niggers. It seems to me perfectly valid that source and indeed context matters. Postmodernism in action!

― Martin Skidmore, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think it's just not nice to use a word and tell other people they can't use it. It may be repossession but it also seems like exclusion in an unfriendly way. I don't see how that's going to make society more tolerant if a word is still offensive when one group says it but fine when another does - that doesn't fix the problem of its being offensive in the first place does it?

― Maria, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i don't know if kathleen hanna is gay. carrie and corin from s-k used to be a couple. i hope not only gay men are allowed to use it, then i wouldn't be able to call myself a faghag anymore. the word "homo" is better anyway.

― di, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

actually i got called a fag once, and it kind of confused me, until liz told me that its sometimes used to refer to lesbians as well.

― di, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

can anyone tell me if Kathleen is gay, also carrie brownstein

KH is/was dating (married to?) Adam Horovitz of the Beastie Boys, I think.

― rosemary, Sunday, 21 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Use of word can also = attempted act of self-identification. Not only recognizing community of enforced difference or enforcing such, but also attempting to create such.

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what about Ione Skye?? if all this is true, he is smiled down upon by the gods...

― Ron, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

actually i got called a fag once, and it kind of confused me, until liz told me that its sometimes used to refer to lesbians as well.
i don't recall saying this though i could well have just suggested it yeah, though i've never been called that. I thought h settled yr confusion by telling ya just how fagsome you are!!

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I resent when gay people are called " Cigarette". Its just plain rude. I don't go up to heteros and call them " Giraffe Vomit". But then again nor do I like Alpacas.

― mike hanle y, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i use "fag", in various/particular circumstances.
for me it's more to do with a cultural trope or "type" than strictly tied to sex or sexuality.
hey it's the 21st century isn't it? isn't everyone a happy wee bi/herm/trans(cendant/sexual/gender) by now?
p.s. mostly joking, i mean i don't want a different hegemony replacing* what "we" have now, though "fagness" sometimes does fit that, to me, but i am particularly anti-predictability/sameness especially if things are supposed to be subversive when they're not, though i also recognise there's got to be a lot of contextualisation with "the whole fag thing" eg. locations like urban or smalltown and time period oh bla bla god help me, have i made any sense?? i'm sorry anthony if i have misinterpreted or just muddled up what y're trying to get discussion about or whatever.

*(or even subsuming in some circles...but i'm not sure about that exactly, sexuality and subcultures are complex things i know and i am just a crazy rambler and would always consider myself a failure at university gender studies, even if i got a doctorate in it, which i won't and don't want to anyway)

― bisupremacist but still clinging to "cultural dykedom, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Use of word can also = attempted act of self-identification. Not only recognizing community of enforced difference or enforcing such, but also attempting to create such

i definately "relate" to this, probably on several levels or in different ways, like with dyke stuff. But i think it's important to recognise, and try to avoid, that when this self-identification formed partly (or perhaps even mainly?) in response to abusive/hateful/harmful definition from other people/sources, the new (and of course not fixed) identity should be super wary of and try so hard to avoid creating and/or partaking in something which itself becomes (/has become) hegemonic.*
i mean, just for example, there's the whole "fag"/campy humour thing which is now common on tv for example and can be really boring and end up pretty patronising (like fat people, you know, oh those funny jolly fat people --- oh those adorable funny fashionable fags). And just the general sameyness and perkyness - like in New Zealand there's a programme called "Queer Nation" a doco about queer stuff/people/issues etc and the presenters and the whole approach to the programme i feel takes too much from "fag" culture, extending it to dyke stuff as well (and yes i know there's heaps of problems with dyke/lesbo cultures as well, and i'm sure some of the perky/campy crossover into dyke-ic stuff comes from queer women's friendships/associations with queer men, and also that since i'm talking about tv, it tends to be what alot of tv, especially with presenters, favours anyway - you know, very upbeat and perky). Perhaps i strayed from the topic or never got anywhere near it or just said obvious things. Sorry, i lost it a bit.

[And, since anthony raised kathleen hanna from the start, i think this is a big problem with current music&art related/based feminism especially the whole grrrl thing/ punk rock.]

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

queer women's friendships/associations with queer men

since queer politics is a big part of that feminist sweepstakes album, i assume that this was the reasoning behind le tigre's use of the word "fag".

― di, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And, since anthony raised kathleen hanna from the start, i think this is a big problem with current music&art related/based feminism especially the whole grrrl thing/ punk rock

liz do you mean that they use "fag" in a cliched way or do you just mean that riot grrl is hegemonic or what?

― di, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

sorry i am aware that my posts are quite muddy as usual.
i have no problem with k hanna / queer women/ heaps of diff people using "fag", so yeah, i meant my big problem with punkrockish associated feminism is the hegemonic and hence predictableness of it - similar to "fag" culture as a defensive/affirmative cultural identity thing when it becomes hegemonic or just stupid (for example, the big trend for gay men to have gone for hyper- masculinity/ "buffness" in response - whether conscious or not and i think it usually wasn't or isn't, for the main part - to being viewed as not man enough/too feminine and ie weak etc, and in response to AIDS)

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why say 'fag' when you can say UPHILL GARDENER? It's much more perplexing. Or as Hanle y sez: HONKIE. Actually this only goes to prove how OUT OF DATE ha ha Kathleen Hanna is as she should only be using the terms "birds" and "geezers" CF the STREETS!

― Sarah, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Simple really, a 'fag' is anyone with a dick who would rather do anything else with it than stick it in the nearest pussy

― dave q, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, i bet she doesn't even get any action "topping" sexy pillow- biter queerz. i'm sorry but just this year i have realised how astonishingly suck-ass and stupid kat hanna's politics (and hence much of her lyrics) are and it disturbs me since she's reasonably well known and seems to be getting worse (cf. some Le Tigre stuff, which is even more infuriating 4 me 'cause i find some of the tunes real catchy and great on some of the worst lyrics - eg that one about "you just don't understand what it's like to be a woman and have your life dominated by fear of rape" - something like that - "i'll be gone before y're home" and it has a man acting the vocal part of a supposedly typical dumbass doesn't-get-what-women-are-all- wound-up-about man)

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dave q you are joking eh? i am 95% thinking y're jokin but i just want to really make sure, 'cause i am a bit dumbish

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

can anyone tell me if Kathleen is gay, also carrie brownstein

I've never seen Kathleen linked with a girl, just guys, which seems to go completely against her image. I've been totally in love with her ever since seeing LT a few months ago, which I realize is rather sad, but there's just something about her odd little pseudo-surfer chick look...

Carrie's gay but I think Corin is actually married now.

― Justyn Dillingham, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Kathleen is straight and has been with AdRock from the Beastie Boys for a few years now.

Corin recently had a baby.

― Samantha, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that one about "you just don't understand what it's like to be a woman and have your life dominated by fear of rape" - something like that -

she says she's had to move like three times to escape stalkers, maybe that's what she is refeffing to, which if so would qualify as more than politics

― Ron, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

referring, my god i just woke up

― Ron, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Would you rather be called a fag or an invert?

― N., Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"more than politics"?
i assume, and got this from feminism actually (non-surprising: "the personal is political" and vice-versa slogan/idea came from or was at least strongly put forward by feminists). so no i wasn't dissing her like "politics" is some theoretical thing so she was coming across empty sounding. not at all. however i think there are very wrong ideas in that song, unfortunately i'm gonna dodge it for the time being 'cause i been up way too many hours (sorry).
but did you know, she was in an issue of "Out" that glossy see-we're- just-like-good-wee-heteros and we love having $500 trousers and 700 pounds sterling boots advertised to us (plus that mag always gives me papercuts! - and no i don't buy it, except for 20cents a few copies once they were selling ex-library copies; and i won a year's subscrition to it once). Oh yeah and in her one page bit in Out she said some crap like now that she's older she's dressing more appropriately, like tidier and more "respectable" or whatever. There was a quote that made me sick, something like "yeah i want to wear the chanel suits and have that power as well" oh i know, i should look it up, i'm sure there's thousands of adoring sites out there. Another thing that pissed me off was that they (the members of le tigre who aren't the one called JT or something) acted indignant/fucked off when some media people interpreted JD or JT or whatever as male - as if they didn't expect that! they coulda made some kinda point with it or given other people some more leeway with it (this band member has a moustache and does look very masculine), but i suspect self-righteous anger or just plain self- righteousness is more familiar and appealing and easy for them.

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

she says she's had to move like three times to escape stalkers

well, just one point; she is quite famous.

― elizabeth anne marjorie, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

in the future we will all be uranians for 15 minutes

― mark s, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

liz, i hear what you're saying, and i didn't make the comment to try to invalidate yr opinion :-) Kathleen is very vocal about her activism, politics, etc. and she is über-P.C. to boot so i can definitely sympathize with anyone who finds her annoying. What i respect about her is that she honestly seems to get a lot done! I personally have a hard time with being critical of someone like that because i am lazy bum.

ps it took me a bit of research to verify that jd samson was woman. Here is funny quote from letters section of latest Venus mag:

"Thank you sooo much for the hot, hot 'pin-up' style photos of Le Tigre in Venus No. 11. J.D. Samson, in particular, is a hottie - and all my friends think so... even the straight guys! I think mustaches are making a comeback for the ladies."

And let me offer a disclaimer on calling that 'funny'. I dont intend to make fun of her appearance, but honestly when did androgyny become attractive to the straight male population??

I think Kathleen focuses on being strong for those in society who have been victimized and need a role model, and cares less about what the rest of us think.

― Ron, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i read her say in an interview once about how she doesn't care thats she's preaching to the converted... i thought that was a little sad.

― di, Monday, 22 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You got to feel out a room and the clued-in-ness of the people to know what's kosher up in the bitch.......reclamation of slurs is totally relative to surroundings.......anyone who says it isn't needs to test that shit out in public.....and I hope your cold theorizing ass gets beats, which will happen......it's like those nerdy shut-in white guys you still see nowadays that think they're being all ballsy and original and they try to 'drop a bomb' on a message board by going, "why can't I say nigger?....all the rappers call each other that, why can't I?.....'nigga'?....what's the diff?"......they are so far behind on things, I mean 1993 out-of-touch-ness levels, it's not even worth explaining again.....shit, people need to keep their slurs kooky, lighthearted and morphologically softened enough to be harmless and use them only with down ass people that know you got nothing but love.....examples.

I enjoy calling gay people: knob gobblers. white people: bleachies. black people: clingheads. brown people: "sonny gill"

― Ramosi, Tuesday, 23 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Sometimes the choir needs preaching, too.

― Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 23 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

but honestly when did androgyny become attractive to the straight male population??

the early 1920s? them pinstriped, flat-chested, chummy chicks we call 'flappers'.

moreover, the media representation of ideal woman is slowly - insidiously, even - becoming less feminine and more...vaguely pre- pubescent boygirl thing. Not to say that chick 'tashes are hot, but from what cursory glances i get of TV and pop music these days, it's evident that curvy, jiggly girly bits are a definite NOT.

― petra jane, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

[according to media dictations of taste, anyway. personally, curvy jiggly girly bits are great on girls, but i'm not a major-label rekkid exec or fashion guru]

― petra jane, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i wuv boygirl things!! esp wiv all-over humanbody funfur and chameleonic chitinous mating crest!! media types please note!!

― mark s, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hey lets bitch about kathleen hanna some more. she won't let trannies attend le tigre shows, is that fukked up or what?

― di, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Wha? Men and women allowed, but no transgender freaks? EH?

― RickyT, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Transvestite is very different to transgender)

Then again the sight of a big BROOSER squeezing hisself into a sequinned frock can sometimes get too much for you - p'raps Kathween just COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!

― Sarah, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you guys are such fags

(shuffles off to suck some smokers cock)

― Queen G, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Transvestite is very different to transgender)

I know.

― RickyT, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So do I.

― Sarah, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

SO THERE!!

― Sarah, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

NERRRRR!

― RickyT, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fag! (and thus the thread comes full circle).

― Sarah, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark C's Mum once notably described her son as "faggy, but nice"

― David, Thursday, 25 April 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

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