Is ambition really sexy?

Often when you talk to people about what they look for in a partner they say they want someone
who is ambitious. What I don't understand is why would you care if your partner is ambitious or not?
Of course no one wants someone who sits on their ass all day, but when people say they want someone who is ambitious it feels, to me, like they're saying they want someone successfull, but with nicer words.

I couldn't give a fuck if my girlfriend is "ambitious" or not, I can think of a million things I value more in a partner. If she's ambitious or not is not gonna affect what I feel for her, ambition imo is only important to the individual, yourself.

Just something that has always bugged me.

Ambition can be really sexy, especially when the person in question's ambition is to give me mind-blowing orgasms.

sarah palin is ambitious

lock thread xpost oh god u ruined it velko

ambition is like 'successful' but interpreted more broadly

http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/images_4/BlondeAmbitionMoviePoster.jpg

sarah palin is ambitious

But in a self-serving and transparent way. Sarah the barracuda, indeed.

Pretty much anyone who goes into politics is ambitious.

ambition = energy

Although I do not find overambitious women particularly sexy tbh

People who know what they want can be sexy. People who know what they want can be scary. Sometimes both.

Gonna have to agree with "ambitious" as a pale euphemism for "financially successful" and "making more money is a primary life goal for this person".

I actually think there's a nice side to "ambition," because it's a quality you look for in someone when you acknowledge that you're looking for a partner over the long term -- it means you know that lives change, that you have clear goals for where you want to go with yours, and you want a partner with equally clear goals. It means you're not just interested in someone who works now, you're interested in someone who's on a particular trip with you. I mean, this is usually said by people who consider themselves ambitious, not those who want someone else to be successful for them.

We could be really middle-class about it and say that this is tacky or unseemly, but ... you know, most people in my country are not particularly privileged, and there's a cycle to that, so when someone decides that he/she wants to put forth lots of effort and achieve something greater in life than expected, and wants a partner who feels the same and is on board for that, umm, journey ... surely this is totally admirable?

Sorry for sounding like an earnest politician there, but I think that's all true.

If you put a face and situation to this I don't think any of you would judge everyone the same way. If a spoiled law student in nice clothes wanted "ambition" you'd say it was all about acquisitiveness. If a woman who grew up in inner-city poverty was struggling her way to get a college degree and make something great of herself and said she wanted a boyfriend who shared that "ambition," you'd say hell yes, I hope she finds that.

everyone wants something

they'll take you moneyyyy. and never give up.
/zit remedy

http://lyrics.degrassi.ca/zits.jpg

Ambition isn't always sexy, but lack of ambition is a turn off.

Pretty much anyone who goes into politics is ambitious.

and despite often resembling goblins, politicians do seem to have a lot of affairs. dunno if that tells us anything.

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0703/063003thurmondstrom.jpg

to me, ambition has zero bearing on someone's sexiness

in fact, ambition with no particular effort backing it up is a major turn off, if not flat out pathetic

(so perhaps not zero bearing in that case)

truly ambitious people are usually too preoccupied to really have time for/care about someone else

But what if they ambitious about you?

i'm a truly ambitious person (with a history of it sometimes waning, but currently back to regularly scheduled high-ambition mode) and i care about other people

jim otm. An ambition to get the Guinness World Record for most cigarettes jammed into mouth is not sexy.

ambitious doesn't mean selfish and it doesn't mean money- or power-driven/oriented
xpost exactly

oh and also people who bang on about being successful but do nowt about it are suck jobs.

But what if they ambitious about you?

i think that's called something else

I feel like some of you are working off of a very limited definition of ambition! Jordan, there are a lot of Americans who would probably consider you ambitious for putting a lot of time and energy into playing music. And by "ambitious," they would probably mean something along the lines of what I DIED is saying -- that you want to do something with yourself beyond sitting around, hanging out, watching TV.

A lot of ILXors come from the parts of America where people tend not to even leave their towns -- and in places like that, saying "ambition" can mean something as simple as thinking outside your immediate surroundings, having a sense of the world and goals beyond just working the same job and getting drunk with your friends.

I know this is a very politician-style way of talking about it, but most people in this country struggle to change their situations, including economically, and don't have an automatic ticket to middle-class comfort, and I totally don't fault any of them for wanting mates who have the same level of drive to improve their lot. There are also a lot of places and demographics in the U.S. where some people (often women) put forth a lot of energy on things like education and career development and a quest for success and security, but they're surrounded by dating pools of others who are more inclined to drift around where they are without having much vision about how to change that. I think that sense of "ambition" is a lot more common than some cut-throat upper-class acquisitiveness and lust for power.

I realize I sound totally earnest, scolding, and "I believe in good ol' American bootstrapping," but what I'm saying isn't even that dramatic...

This is reminding me of a relevant quote from George Saunders's "Sea Oak":

Angela had dreams. She had plans. In her notebook she pasted a picture of an office from the J. C. Penney catalogue and under it wrote, My (someday?) office.

anyone who says no is a LOSER

Generally speaking, I find super-ambitious people to be off-putting in the same way that I find "overconfident" people slightly suspect. I'm not talking about what yr going on about, nabisco; I can understand people wanting to get the fuck out of a small town where ain't nothing going on, or who want to rise up out of severely economically-depressed situations. I guess I mean that I don't understand and also tend to be suspicious of people who are lacking in self-doubt on a certain level.

What I mean is, I instinctively steer clear of overly glib sociopaths. I understand, though, that there are various shades of "ambition". For the most part, though, I think I am more drawn towards lazy/impractical people.

i will tell you this: most highly ambitious people are probably doing just fine on the self-doubt-o-metre
xpost

Sure thing. I guess my inclination is to tag the offputting ones with negative words like self-important, egotistical, pompous, cut-throat, etc., in order to leave ambition at least neutral in its connotations.

(I'm also totally aware that once you're in a realm of middle-class college-educated people, you have to be pretty hardcore for other people to really think of you as "ambitious." Outside of that, though...)

hm, if we're talking about class here, then maybe just to complicate our varied definitions of ambition, i wld like to mention the difference between ambition and expectation - where if you had this idea (likely derived from your 'class' upbringing) of where you should be in life, that is, what is expected, then you might go for that because it's a level you're used to. whereas people from a different 'level' might see that person as being ambitious simply because they wish to live as they're accustomed to, even if in their minds there's no ambition to it. like, if you expect to own a house with a yard, as that's just the 'done thing', then it's not ambition, but if you never had a house with a yard and no one you know does either but you dream of having one and work towards it, then maybe it is.

i just see true ambition in a much more positive way, i guess, as something that isn't just good for the person but for everyone. where is that nelson mandela quote, wait...

xpost to nab

See, though, I'm not sure I'm getting your whole characterization of the "middle class" in this context--

e.g., We could be really middle-class about it and say that this is tacky or unseemly, but ...

Like, I always thought one of the hallmarks of the middle class, at least stereotypically through some magical historical lens, is that the middle class program is to strive towards upward mobility.

oh it is not actually a quote from him but has been misattributed to him
this one, it is kinda self-helpy but what else is new:
#Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us.' We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we're liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others." (A Return to Love: Reflections on the Principles of "A Course in Miracles", Harper Collins, 1992. From Chapter 7, Section 3])

xpost

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44184000/jpg/_44184783_julius_caesar_getty.jpg

"as he was fortunate, I rejoice at it; as he was valiant, I honour him; but, as he was ambitious, I slew him."

xpost to rrrobyn - Sometimes, yeah! Although often I think the view from below is more "you were handed these things, never had to work for them, and take them for granted."

I wish I knew how to put this stuff in terms that wasn't strictly about class and economics, too, which is partly why I brought up the leaving-town thing. There are plenty of other examples...

dell -- I just meant that among some of the comfortably middle-class, it can be seen as somehow gauche to fixate on life-plans of grand success -- because we don't have to be hardcore strivers to do okay, and can afford to go on about how "ambition" isn't as important as fulfillment or creativity of happiness. But if you grow up in abject poverty amid horrible education and you decide you're going to become a doctor, that is going to require a level of focus, striving, and wound-up ambition that might be totally embarrassing coming from a well-off med student whose parents are radiologists.

xpost robyn

Yeah, I dunno how I feel about Marianne Williams, to say nothing of ACIM...and that ambivalence stems more from ignorance than anything else.

I feel comfortable aligning myself along the lines of the basic sentiment of that quote. I mean, I'm inclined to think that more cultural-wide ills come as the result of people not appreciating themselves and their potentials, than they do from some strand of unfettered ambition coupled with narcissism. I think, anyhow. I must say though, the caveat for me lies in the case of ppl whom I am most inclined to demonize-- the people who freak me out the most are those who are:
a. gifted with great charisma-- intelligence, charm, good looks, whatever...
b. err on the wrong side of introspection
c. through whatever mechanisms of fate, fall into positions of potential great influence/power

those people genuinely scare me

how do you know what someone has done and what they plan to do

ppl whom I am most inclined to demonize-- the people who freak me out the most are those who are:
a. gifted with great charisma-- intelligence, charm, good looks, whatever...

please tell me i'm reading this wrong cuz i'm a bit tired? smart, good-looking, charming people freak you out? what? that must be so depressing.

i definitely find ambition totally sexy, i acknowledge that w/ambition can come any number of character flaws but a) this isn't necessarily so, b) a lack of ambition is one of the hugest character flaws for me. i don't think i conceptualise "ambition" as a purely status- or finance-related matter, it's more about recognising your own potential, and the need to work to attain it.

Ok, nabisco. I guess what threw me about yr use of the term "middle class", is just that, from my perspective, anyhow, if I knew people in college who were ambitious in that sense, I'm not sure that I would have held it against them or looked askance at them for having those sorts of life goals. I think my nineteen year-old self would have just shrugged his shoulders and been like, "eh, whatever..."

Not to turn this into a huge thread about class issues, but I grew up under semi-weird circumstances...I was raised by a single parent who was bringing up three kids and at certain points was unsure how we were all going to get fed/clothed within the next year. There was no small of anxiety concerning those issues. I know other people who grew up under similar situations (living in some suburban tract reeking of affluence in the eighties' U.S., but eh, how to put food on the table after the mortgage was covered?)...at the same time, my dad ended up earning six figures at one point, so it wasn't like we would have actually starved to death or whatever. I've no doubt that I was lucky, relatively speaking. I have an ex-gf whose mom had to go on food stamps, etc., in order to feed her kids. So, it's weird. I did not have to live in a hovel with three other families and no privacy, and as a kid, I feel like I never wanted for anything, but still, I find the whole issue of class to be confusing somewhat...

please tell me i'm reading this wrong cuz i'm a bit tired? smart, good-looking, charming people freak you out? what? that must be so depressing.

Ha, no, yr reading it wrong, and/or I wrote it clumsily. It's a+b+c (the whole enchilada of the equation) that are disturbing to me.

I don't feel threatened by charming people, but rather am nonplussed and freaked out by the combination of people who possess qualities like that and who "use their powers for evil", as it were. I think its part of some religious upbringing, wherein I assume that people who do sinister things should have an ugly face, if that makes any sense.

Like, I wrongly tend to think that it follows somehow that people who are particularly witty or good-looking or whatever will naturally exhibit commensurate qualities of virtue...which is obviously a gravely naive mistake from my end

In the context of life-partner desiderata listings, ambitious doesn't mean wealthy; it means very interested in becoming wealthy and starting a family. Anyone who admits this to be on their "list" is clearly attempting to insider trade on the emotional/fiscal commitment market.

I hear you.

And let it be known that I don't think that being ambitious or wanting to be wealthy or much of whatever the concept of ambition in and of itself may entail is somehow "wrong". I would like to own up to my own historical abject laziness, and also to my own sympathies with similar lost souls or wotever.

ambition is crippling, i'm gonna spend my life watching dreams compromise and burn

I should really be watching the Phils' dreams compromise and burn, but I already know that they will win tonight.

an ambitious lover is likely to make me feel bad about my own lack of ambition, so no, not sexy.

odd, I was thinking about this earlier today.
there must be some type of sexy ambition but it probably doesn't have that much to do with your career if that's what's intended.

i don't really like "ambitious" people either. i am an ambitious person, i guess, but i would like someone who is more avg and who does not fetishize my ambitiousness.

"litigate me! litigate me until the bailiffs come!"

does anyone FETISHIZE ambition??? that's some extreme shit.

i don't like the eyes-glazed-over "i'm gonna steamroll through life en route to money and fortune" kind of ambition, which i feel like i see a lot of in various forms. ambition along the lines of "i'm going to do more with myself and i'm taking steps to get there" is totally okay with me. i think it depends on what people are aspiring towards, for the most part. or at least what their motives are. narcissitic ambition is lame.

ian i didn't mean it that way

fetishized like made into an object. i mean i don't like people who think ambition is sexy i guess. those people are kinda ridiculous.

It's difficult for me to be attracted to someone who isn't ambitious about their work - if they're not excited about and don't have goals for something they've chosen to spend a good amount of their life doing then it's hard for me see myself being interested in them over the long term. I'm not talking about a need to accumulate money or power - it's about knowing the person I'm with is putting their time and effort into a field they find satisfying.

Maybe it's because I'm very passionate about my job, but in the past when I've dated people with no professional ambition it's fallen apart very quickly. OTOH, I get freaked out by people with relationship ambition/goals like "I want to get married by 30 and have two kids by 34" or whatever and try to avoid them like the plague.

i haven't read this whole thread (i'm unambitious lolz; i also have to go downstairs in a minute and check on my laundry) but here's my take:

ambition on its own can be sexy, but it's the accompanying cokeheaded type-a coffee-achiever psycho behavior that always ruins it. some people get the devil in their eyes when they really want something. i'm more sympathetic when the ambition is directed toward a good cause (mother theresa was ambitious, but definitely not an asshole about it).

i actually think i am ambitious... i'd love to be more driven, but i'm also fairly comfortable with who i am and like going at my own pace with things.

Ambition in the sense of seeking power = not sexy
Ambition in the personal-ad sense of seeking someone who makes a lot of money = totally not sexy
Ambition in the sense of being constantly looking for opportunities to do cool stuff, improve oneself, challenge oneself, etc. = sexy
Ambition in the sense of wanting to build, create, or otherwise make something that's challenging and demanding ("an ambitious project") and will contribute to the world = sexy
Ambition in the sense of feeling like spending all your time watching TV and going out to pubs is a waste = possibly sexy
Ambition in the sense of being totally unable to relax and let yourself off the hook for a while = not sexy

Very ambitious people, even those who like to challenge themselves in a self-helpy kind of way, can sometimes be draining, especially where they cannot drop an obsession of some kind. They don't always have much time for enjoying their lives and don't seem to deal with death, futility and random good or bad fortune so well. Many of them are clearly unhappy.

So, speaking for the opposition, I enjoy the company of unambitious types, mainly for their sense of humour and love of simple pleasures. I am thinking in particular of two gentle, gentle souls who are quite happy to roll with the punches. They are, unsurprisingly, the ones to whom relatively more ambitious types like me turn to when we need cheering up.

When we criticise unambitious people for being lazy, perhaps we are thinking of those bitter, harried souls who feel their ambitions have been thwarted, and are 'giving up', or 'going on strike' in a very ostentatious way to express their resentment.

I would just like to say that I'm very grateful to rrobyn for that (incorrectly attributed) "Nelson Mandela" quote - I remember seeing a bit of that once on someone's office wall at an old job I had years ago and I kinda thought I'd never be able to find it again. Thanks!

In the context of life-partner desiderata listings, ambitious doesn't mean wealthy; it means very interested in becoming wealthy and starting a family. Anyone who admits this to be on their "list" is clearly attempting to insider trade on the emotional/fiscal commitment market.

This is like the most verbose, inscrutable way of saying "ambition is sexy" that I could imagine.

an ambitious lover is likely to make me feel bad about my own lack of ambition, so no, not sexy.

― ian, Friday, October 24, 2008 2:11 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

Dell, you are supposed to say "OTM" to this.

isn't it a verbose, inscrutable way of saying "ambitious is not sexy"? i guess that's inscrutability for you.

anyway, i would probably say no, because someone ambitious is likely to be someone energetic, tense, driven...and i need someone pretty mellow to bring out the best in me. i wouldn't condemn ambition in itself, though.

Ambition is sexy. Accomplishments are sexy. Climbing over others and rationalising you're entitled to do so because your ambition is more important or they're somehow undeserving of fair treatment never should be.

Using either the cutthroat, money-hungry definition or the good ol' bootstrapping one, it's not sexy. Admirable, sure. I tend to get annoyed with people who aren't satisfied with what they have currently because almost always they're the type of person who is NEVER satisfied with what they have.

an ambitious lover is likely to make me feel bad about my own lack of ambition, so no, not sexy.

― ian, Friday, October 24, 2008 2:11 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

Dell, you are supposed to say "OTM" to this.

― Roasted Ghost (Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You), Friday, October 24, 2008 7:20 AM (10 hours ago) Bookmark

Nah, b/c I benefit from being in the company of more ambitious people, much in the same way that I enjoy being in the company of loquacious people who can complement or offset my habitual taciturnity. Everyone could likely benefit from some re-dialing here and there as far as their temperaments go-- that's part of the beauty of being the social creatures that we are, I think. One just hopes the the ecology of different human personalities is brought into some healthy balance ultimately.

I like what Maria and Dainger said just above. I think that ambition can be something of a red herring that distracts people from enjoying their lives, and can take a toll on physical and mental health, relationships, etc.

Part of my kneejerk reaction to AMBITIOUS people stems from thinking of the culture I live in and all of the wreckage that has resulted from ambitious people. Say what you will about the abject lazy, but it's unlikely that they will end up conducting wars or torturing people or what have you.

I think there is a difs between "ambitious" and "over-ambitious." BECAUSE:

Of course no one wants someone who sits on their ass all day, but when people say they want someone who is ambitious it feels, to me, like they're saying they want someone successfull, but with nicer words.

When I was looking for a new kind of person, an "ambitious" person to date after 5 years of dating peeps, I meant basically someone who doesn't sit on their ass all day. Someone who has more of a goal than maybe trying to play at a coffee shop Saturday night if someone else sets up the gig for them. Someone who has more of a goal than finding a weed connection when things are "dry." Like, maybe someone who wants to try and learn and maybe move out of a basement and maybe try not to work as a barrista their whole lives? Maybe?

As a person with hilarious crippling depression, I have to have SOME form of ambition, and trying to enact shit I want to happen in the future and in the present. I have to give myself a reason to go on and I've worked enough high-school-diploma jobs to know I would be really unhappy with that kind of stasis (and poverty). If I told myself it was foolish or presumptuous or elitist or basically anything else to be ambitious, I would sleep on my couch all day, and not eat, and start to think maybe there is no point in being alive so why keep trying? And I am sure ambition gives non-depressed people that kind of good motivation, too. But if it takes ambition to get out of bed, it is a fucking need.

So being able to struggle through life and try and make shit happen and not being passive is pretty sexy to me. Sexy in that it exudes life, or desire for life, and that is about the sexiest thing ever.

Sorry, I missed the end of this thread before, but that was a really outstanding cluster of posts, there, Abbott, and I couldn't agree more. There is indeed a difference between ambitious and over-ambitious, and ambition does not necessarily equal "evil" or "unattractive". To some extent, everyone has their own hurdles to overcome in life, and it's all about how we view those hurdles and whether we want to try and overcome them or not. Wealth/social status is a very one-dimensional view of ambition, I think.