Libraries & the homeless: are they "problem patrons" or not?

1. Is it true that libraries are the last respite for the homeless (an idea I have formed) OR can they spend the day in Denny's or retail shops?

2. Should homeless people be allowed to stay all day every day in a library? If so, should they be allowed to sleep in there? Should they be allowed to use the computers?

3. If they don't have an address should they be able to get a library card? (It is the only form of ID owned by a lot of homeless people I know.)

4. Is this a problematic issue for any library employees (or patrons) reading here?

I worked at a university library, where the admin had a policy of letting people sleep on benches/seats all day if they wanted to. I thought that was nice, as it was a secular place to sleep and rest. OTOH we had only four regulars. They were nice, and read/took notes or kept to themselves. (One of them called me Hollywood - ??? ^_^) There was a guy who kept exposing himself who was obviously kicked out & banned eventually after several moths of monitoring his behavior.

This leads me to believe this is more of a problem in urban and/or impoverished areas (Boise wasn't really either of them). For example: all the university libraries here in Cruces recently made their computers require student ID logons. I appreciated this as I was tired of having to ask a homeless person if they could quit playing some Flash flight sim so I could look up journal articles. Sometimes this request was met with grace and gentleness, others with severe hostility.

NB I know these are homeless types bcz I used to be at the homeless shelter a lot (for food).

MAINLY:

I believe all people should be given a fair shake, and if I was down on my luck I would spend all my time in a library. They're sacred to me. This, however, makes me worry for the "problem patrons," as alienating other library patrons is bad.

Essentially any human who isn't harming themselves or others (old saw) is fine in my book. But what is harm in this situation? And how does one figure out these problems & devise solutions for them?

2. Should homeless people be allowed to stay all day every day in a library? If so, should they be allowed to sleep in there? Should they be allowed to use the computers?

A library patron is a library patron, imo. Why differentiate? As a homed person, I can stay there all day and use the computers, but napping is discouraged (esp. if you are a snorer). The downtown Seattle library has public restrooms (an increasingly rare commodity) that are well-kept. I have come upon folks taking sink baths, but thankfully the library has seen fit to have both paper towels and blowdryers so it's not too problematic for people to both dry off and clean up after themselves.

whenever our library had an event (which people could get into for free regardless of institutional affiliation), we would occasionally get one or two homeless people coming in to treat themselves to the post-lecture buffet

this is an interesting question and one i would like to think about more if i didn't have so much work to do

it depends on how you view the purpose of the library: is it a general public space, or is it more specifically for the access of information?

it is a tricky question

It is. I think a lot depends on the homeless person.

At my university library the other day I caught a vagrant, snoring loudly on the window seat, using Richard Ellmann's Joyce bio as a pillow.

at the very least research libraries would probably think of themselves as strictly the latter. "general public space" kind of hard to define - what is/isn't allowed in such a space and who gets to define that, etc

xpost to mmd

Yeah I was thinkng the same thing: research/university/National or State libraries are a diff beast from the local public library.

The latter, I do think anyone should be allowed to comfortably spend all day in, within reason obv (per Abb's comment on the guy exposing himself).

1. Is it true that libraries are the last respite for the homeless (an idea I have formed) OR can they spend the day in Denny's or retail shops?

Yes to the first question.

2. Should homeless people be allowed to stay all day every day in a library? If so, should they be allowed to sleep in there? Should they be allowed to use the computers?

Yes. No. Yes.

3. If they don't have an address should they be able to get a library card? (It is the only form of ID owned by a lot of homeless people I know.)

No.

4. Is this a problematic issue for any library employees (or patrons) reading here?

Yes (well for my father, a librarian, it has been a problem in the past.)

Generally the rule here in SF (AFAICT) is as long as people don't a) disturb other patrons and b) don't loiter/sleep/whatever, homeless vs. non-homeless is pretty much a non-issue.

At my university library the other day I caught a vagrant, snoring loudly on the window seat, using Richard Ellmann's Joyce bio as a pillow.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Tuesday, November 11, 2008 12:27 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lolololololololol so perfect

re: "can they spend the day in Denny's" - i was once at a white castle where, over the loudspeaker, the manager threatened to call the police if the homeless guy who was sitting there and not eating didn't leave immediately. so not too sure about that one. (i mean, maybe dude had a history with that place or something, i dunno)

Alex's description is OTM, and can be easily encapsulated into a pretty obvious rule: if you are using the library and appropriately and for the intended purposes of a library, then what should it matter to anyone whether you have a fixed address or not?

P.S. One reason lots of places are very open and liberal on this point is that it's just a basic part of the culture and animating principles of public libraries to be accessible to all, and maybe even especially the "least" among us, etc.

At my university library the other day I caught a vagrant, snoring loudly on the window seat, using Richard Ellmann's Joyce bio as a pillow.

Sure you did.

I think public libraries are amazing because they're one of the few places you can access services, or even just come in out of the rain, for free. Regarding Abbott's computer issue, I've been to a lot of libraries that have time limits for computer use per patron per day, and that makes distribution of access more fair than first-come-first-serve.

Yes, I concur. I love libraries and think they should be free to all. There are a few lines that are tricky to draw (tricky BECAUSE of the generosity and egalitarianism behind libraries!).

At the main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library, especially in the winter, there are a lot of homeless people who chill there and sit at the cube desks. the often read newspapers, magazines, books. they don't bother me at all, as another library patron. of course IANAL, and don't doubt that occasionally unpleasant or uncomfortable situations do crop up. i think that as long as a person obeys the same general guidelines as everyone else, there's no reason to discriminate.

there have been cases on this, i think the general rule is that homeless can be in public libraries, but the local library can enforce some reasonable rules like shoes/shirts required. the ALA is officially very pro-homeless but the rank and file librarians out there have more mixed feelings (this according to my sister, a librarian)

Should they be allowed in if they can't read?

re: "can they spend the day in Denny's" - i was once at a white castle where, over the loudspeaker, the manager threatened to call the police if the homeless guy who was sitting there and not eating didn't leave immediately. so not too sure about that one. (i mean, maybe dude had a history with that place or something, i dunno)

A buddy in college got kicked out of a Denny's before he reached his goal of 24 straight hours.

Should they be allowed in if they can't read?

Well, what about art books?

the central library in downtown l.a. is a HUGE hangout for homeless people. the librarians there hate them. i'm happy to co-exist peacefully as long as the patrons are pleasant and polite. usually they are.

i've been wondering about something for a long time, as someone who has lived in cities with large homeless populations: obviously stellar hygiene is hard to come by if you're living on the streets, but what about if the homeless person smells particularly bad -- at what point does it cross the line when he's in a public place? could a bus driver kick someone with horrible body odor (etc) off the bus? or is that grounds for a lawsuit?

sometimes i smell bad and it would be humiliating to be kicked off a bus, especially one i had to pay to get on.

yeah, it's a sensitive issue for sure

this is the major legal case w/r/t homeless & libraries
http://impagination.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/revisiting-kreimer-v-morristown-implications-for-public-library-policies/

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/citydesk/2008/11/12/dc-libraries-not-a-homeless-shelter/

Interesting article dealing with this very subject.

there are lots in the memphis public library main branch. i think it's cool as long as they don't sleep and don't try to look at porn on the public pc's. which i've seen happen.

i mean, i think it's cool with the library...

Whoa, velko, that is a pretty crazy little bonus in the comments!

could a bus driver kick someone with horrible body odor (etc) off the bus?

i've witnessed this happen twice in london - both times it wasn't just someone being a bit smelly or sweaty, it was full-on stanking the joint out, such that there was an empty radius of a couple of seats around the tramp in question (and this was in rush hour, too) - i've rarely smelt anything as bad as that and people were retching. the tramp was passed out though so the bus was evacuated and abandoned. really no one would have gone anywhere near that seat anyway even if he was kicked off.