Mumbai Terror Attacks

Developing..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7751160.stm

yup

Gunmen have carried out a series of co-ordinated attacks across the Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay), killing at least 80 people and injuring 200 more.

At least seven high-profile locations were hit in India's financial capital, including two luxury hotels where hostages were reported to be held.

A fire is sweeping through the Taj Mahal Palace, Mumbai's most famous hotel, which is now ringed by troops.

Police said four suspected terrorists have been killed and nine arrested.

Attacks leave India reeling
Witnesses tell of violence
In pictures: Mumbai attacks

The situation is still confused but the city's main train station, a hospital, a restaurant and two hotels - locations used by foreigners as well as local businessmen and leaders - are among those places caught up in the violence.

There are reports of gunfire and explosions taking place elsewhere in the city, and reports of a hostage situation at a hospital.

Commandos have now surrounded the two hotels, the Taj Mahal Palace and the Oberoi Trident, where it is believed that the armed men are holding dozens of hostages.

One eyewitness said that the attackers had singled out British and American passport holders.

If this report is true, our security correspondent Frank Gardner says it implies an Islamist motive - attacks inspired or co-ordinated by al-Qaeda.

See detailed map of the area

A claim of responsibility has been made by a previously unknown group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen.

Our correspondent says it could be a hoax or assumed name for another group.

The motive is far from clear - but the attacks come amid elections in several Indian states, including in disputed Kashmir.

In the latest developments:

• Fire crews have been evacuating people from the upper floors of the Taj Mahal Palace, from where flames and smoke could be seen billowing

• The head of Mumbai's anti-terrorism unit and two other senior officers are among those killed, officials say

• The White House holds a meeting of top intelligence and counter-terrorism officials, and pledges to help the Indian government.

Gunmen opened fire at about 2300 local time (1730 GMT) at the sites in southern Mumbai.

Mumbai journalist: "Gunmen were looking for Westerners"
"The terrorists have used automatic weapons and in some places grenades have been lobbed," said AN Roy, police commissioner of Maharashtra state.

Local TV images showed blood-splattered streets, bodies being taken into ambulances and dramatic shots of what appeared to explosions and fire inside the Taj Mahal hotel.

One eyewitness told the BBC he had seen a gunman opening fire in the Taj Mahal's lobby.

He said he had seen people fall before he fled the lobby

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/27/world/asia/27mumbai.html?_r=1&hp

“They were talking about British and Americans specifically,” he recounted. “There was an Italian guy, who, you know, they said: ‘Where are you from?’ and he said he’s from Italy and they said, ‘fine’, and they left him alone.”

my brother was there just recently. this is shitting me up.

we've had CNN on here all day and over the last seven hours it's just been anchors watching four or five feeds from indian TV that show soldiers and civilians milling around aimlessly in the street, looking confused. and correspondents calling in on satellite phone explaining that nobody knows anything.

so i read this on the

sorry, meant to post

so i read this on the times of india website:

The high-profile chief of the anti-terror squad Hemant Karkare was killed; Mumbai's additional commissioner of police (east) Ashok Kamte was gunned down outside the Metro; and celebrated encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar was also killed.

and i'm like, what the heck is an encounter specialist. so i do some reading ...

With Tuesday’s encounter, the number of criminals shot dead by inspector Vijay Salaskar touched 78.

They are dreaded by criminals, loathed by human rights activists and envied by their colleagues.

'In a shootout, no one has time for niceties. You kill or get killed.'

wow ... it's like a john woo movie come to life

40 being held hostage in taj mahal hotel

good photo (not graphic or anything)

why hasn't india deployed the Combat Battalion for Resolute Action (COBRA)?

http://tweetgrid.com/grid?l=0&q1=%23mumbai

wow ... it's like a john woo movie come to life

― moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:01 PM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark

no shit. wow!

i know this is in no way funny but this afternoon cnn's closed caption had it mistyped as "MUM BILE"

i barely have words for this

This is just terrible coming after the already-execrable BJP-inspired (deny it or not) communal violence against Christians in Orissa in the past few months

Lower class Muslim family? Yay expect 1993 in Mumbai all over again.

thank you jihad

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y155/rgin/Picture2.png

this is some really audacious and scary shit. im still awake imagining what getting caught up in this would be like. so depressing that they knew they had to take hostages to get more attention than previous bombings. good luck mumbai

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/11/first-hand-acco.html

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/11/coordinated-car.html

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=18.922445,72.832242&spn=0.007054,0.007864&z=17&msid=105055855763538009401.00045c9d8b16af3ad1008

The 600 room, 105 year old Taj Mahal palace hotel that's on fire right now

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4392/charlesda6.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4392/charlesda6.jpg

I'm traveling from Penn Station tomorrow and I'm suddenly really upset and really worried.

http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/26/mumbai_26_november_attack_terrori_2.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/30iz1c8.jpg

so apparently the Deccan Mujahaideen is okay with Versace

cnn reporting all hostages freed from taj mahal hotel

Oh jesus:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/mumbai-terror-attacks-actor-satchwell-forced-to-hide-in-cupboard-20081127-6j4e.html

"Mumbai terror attacks: actor Satchwell forced to hide in cupboard"

Guess what angle *our* media is now going to have about this awful event for the rest of forever.... gah.

(Brooke Satchwell is a hasbeen ex-Neighbours star, fwiw)

This is unbelievable stuff, attacks are still going on, 8 hours after it first kicked off. Gunmen supposedly cruising city in a commandeered police car, AP saying an Orthodox Jewish centre just been taken. Mumbai is a hell of a city, it's unbelievably densely packed. Getting any sort of lockdown is going to be nigh-on impossible.

has anybody come up with any kind of possible rationale for the timing on this?

Like symbolic significance? I always assume with these attacks that they go when the group is ready to execute the attack.

This isnt exactly an Al-Q thing is it? Its some kind of internal corruption/muslim extremist dudes? I dont think I quite understand the machinations of India/Pakistan.

The subway threat for tomorrow is apparently from Al-Q.

The... wait, what subway threat? In the US or in India?

There's talk that Pakistan secret service is behind it, as Pak govt is trying to reign them in. It's really professional either way: they killed three senior Mumbai police chiefs pretty much out of the gate, and have been well armed to boot.

In the US.

Yikes.

Can we not conflate freshmens'-first-midterms level phone-in bullshit with actual people getting killed please

seriously. unsubstantiated terror "threats" are so 2003.

has anybody come up with any kind of possible rationale for the timing on this?

uh, the transition?

The subway threat for tomorrow is apparently from Al-Q.

There is no "subway threat for tomorrow"

I thought that was odd, theres been v little conflation of this with any islam/Al-Q stuff (apart from speculation that they're targeting brits and americans)

yeah gabbneb the rest of the world totally revolves around change.gov
wtf
anyway next week is the beginning of the hajj is about all I know

there's actually direct accounts that they're targeting US/UK'ers

um, AQ kinda revolves around US

Trayce a group called "deccan mujahideen" is claiming responsibility

"AQ" in 2008 is a group that makes cassette tapes and puts them in the mail

Okay, guys. Take this however you'd like, but my friend's father works with homeland security. And he said it's not just media fearmongering, and that there's a credible threat. So -- take that however you will. If I'm nervous and upset about it, though, I'd think it would be understandable.

Okay, guys. Take this however you'd like, but my friend's father works with homeland security.

i lol'd

Mordy, do you know what the phrase "holiday season" refers to?

Gabbneb, I've got a question for you. Where you you living in 2001? Because I was living in NY. So fuck you.

lol

DHS never downplays anything, and they had the same kind of crap in October 2005. I'm not saying it's chicken little, I'm just saying, it's probably chicken little.

I've read that Mossad funded Hamas (in its earliest days) to foment division with the secular PLO. Certainly the CIA funded groups that later became Taliban and Al Qaeda to foment division with the Afghanistan's secular People's Democratic Party.

I hope the intelligence/covert ops community world wide has figured out that playing with religion is like playing with fire.

Mitya:

No, that's not the question though. We know by whom - just as we knew who had attacked Parliament in December 2001

Remember also the Indian Embassy in Kabul was just destroyed two months ago - http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1828640,00.html?xid=feed-yahoo-full-world-related The goal is to thwart India's influence.

The question is, what to do about it? When you have your own politicians willing to engage in communalism for the almost-predictable majority-minority conflicts to come in your own country, what is attacking the chaos of your next-door neighbor going to accomplish in the wrong run? 1993 in Mumbai all over again?

I understand exactly what you're saying, which is why it's personally hard for me to find the right words to answer my brother without charges of turn-coatism in my family (I come from a v political background in India)

But the "something that has to be done" mindset is not productive if it's only going to exacerbate problems. The only short-term solution I can see to trounce Pakistani forces in a border-skirmish that will be enough red-meat for the masses, and a media "win," - like Kargil in 2002. But this time there are calls for more..not just to launch missiles over Rawalapindi and Karachi but to instigate the separatist movements and dismember Pakistan as a state.

They are advocating nothing less than this:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/11/23/world/23pstan-graf01.jpg

Here: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/23/asia/map.php

waaaht?

On the 'miscalculation of supporting Musharraf', I remember that Pakistan was genuinely on the brink of throwing in its lot with the Taliban immediately post-9/11 and it was Musharraf who got it to change course. Disastrous that may have turned out to be, but it may also have been better than any conceivable alternative.

that wouldve been seriously interesting

May I assume that the expanded Afghan areas in the East and North are Pashtun?

>in the wrong run?

lol, i meant long run, but that's just as apt

it's a very difficult issue. but i just don't think military conflict is any viable solution, as of now...but you're still going to be seen as "soft." and what do you do of the unrest in your own house?

more pedantic articles coming

xpost

I remember that, too, although - as I said above - cynicism in the world is high, including with me. Given that I didn't live in Pakistan at that time, I'm not convinced that the fact that I heard in the media at the time that Pakistan was on the brink of throwing its lot in with the Taliban, necessarily means that it was true.

yes, they're Pashtun and they've had their own separatist movement. Same with the Baloch. Really, what else has held Islamabad together for 60 years but a hatred for India/Kashmir? Which was my response to my brother: your military attack is only going to be counter-productive, as it will unite all Pakistanis and further radicalize different segments of society again

His answer is that India will continue to bleed a death by a thousand cuts, if nothing is done

The most damaging thing - in my opinion - is all the news that there were warnings about the attacks, the subsequent resignations of Indian officials, these reports of heavily armed Indian police initially standing around and not actually doing anything. I still think (more fantasyland) the "reaction" of not reacting is potentiallly a very strong one, and one that has to wrong-foot your opponent. What do you do if your attempts to stir up trouble aren't overtly reacted to?

Musharraf was a confounding double-edged sword: on one hand he was very pragmatic, to the point of ensuring confidence in his control of the military's various rogue elements. On the other, you're just deepening resentment of the Pakistani people against the US by backing an anti-democratic dictator who went so far as to toss out the last vestiges of the rule of law, by attacking the courts to continue his reign

His answer is that India will continue to bleed a death by a thousand cuts, if nothing is done

Can you flesh this out for me? Is he saying no one will respect India as a state unless it attacks Pakistan? Is he saying that India will disintegrate if the authorities don't use this opportunity to unite people against a common enemy (i.e. admitting that India has the exact same problem that you've just attributed to Pakistan)?

Vic, is there any actual confirmation of Britons being involved in these attacks? I've been doing some searching and haven't found any - there seems to have been a general rowing back from the initial reports. It's a total disaster if it's true (it's a total disaster anyway, but you get what I mean)

India will get its 'thousand cuts' if it does the wrong thing(s), too.

Pardon my ignorance, but does India have any policy similar or analagous to devolved sovereignty or semi-autonomy for areas of ethnic or religious majorities?

Ismael: I don't know if the Indian gov't has released that evidence..it's widespread in the media over there though

MW: Most of India is filled with Hindus wherever you go, they are dominant (and number more than a billion!). Religious minorities are scattered throughout (well, Sikhs remain in Punjab), but ethnic minorities are in specific areas, such as in the North East provinces like Assam and Arunachal- and they do have their own separatist movements. From my understanding they don't have political autonomy, but go through the perils of the messy and corrupt democracy like elsewhere in the country

But- and this is to answer Mitya - most of India is united beyond any fear of disintegration now with the Hindu populace putting aside their regional/casteist differences for the sake of the state. Kashmir remains a sticking point, since the collective unconscious still remembers the carving-up aspect of the Partition, and resents losing any more land. His point is not that there should be an attack for "respect," in as much as to thwart the Pakistani-ISI intentions to impede India once and for all - or else, as with Israel, these attacks will continue non-stop

i might as well paste the emails. it started with my fear of pakistan's nuclear status now - this is not 1965 or '71. You don't know who controls what, you don't even know who's controlling the gov't within the military

I said: The point is this: you can fly some low level missiles over Pakistani cities for now and not deal with anything for a few months (or weeks). Fine. Before the attacks return and increase with intensity

But where you're erring is in understanding the fundamentalist Islamic mind

What does every Jihadi want? To be "Shaheed" - marytrdom.

Now that you have nuclear weapons, and so do your irrational next-door neighbors, you think that they'd be dismayed at getting "wiped out" by the larger amount of your radioactive warheads? Haha

NO - they would welcome it. They want you to use all your nukes on them ( and then invite the Afghanis and Wahabis and A-Qaeda to fight you too). They want to die and enter the Garden of Allah - and nothing would make them happier if in death the nuclear waste your entire arsenal unleashed would destroy your country's ecology for decades

Thats not a solution, that's giving them what they want. Just think

Another example: Israel knows Iran is attacking them all the time via Hezbollah, it's proxy. But it can't go and launch missiles over Tehran - that's suicide, since Iran likely has the h-bomb. But it can go into Lebanon and kick Hezbollah there; tere's no risk

Pakistan doesn't "likely" - it definitely has nukes. And how does Shalini's father know what sort of warheads China has supplied it with? Sorry, I don't really trust the efficacy of Indian military intelligence right now

You can't play bluff with paagal fanatics that glorify death - your own as well as theirs, and attacking a destabilized nuclear-laden Islamic fundamentalist country that is your next door neighbor is just not the smartest thing to do, and if that isn't self-evident, then I'm sorry that Fox News fried the remnants of your mind

He responded:

The fundies don't control the N bomb.
The moment after they do--- India, Israel and the USA are all blowing up. God forbid.
The people in charge of the N bomb are logical Pakjabis---the pak armed forces is nearly all from the old Punjab.
To end most of international terrorism, Pakistan has to be dis-membered.
Think---like Yugoslavia---Baluchistan, greater Afghanistan, choota defanged de-nuked pakistan, and Pak occupied Kashmir back to India. That is the only long term solution.
The Pak military will not use N bombs---Jaan sabko pyari hai---(except the drugged out brainwashed kids that did this--all younger than you by the way---OBL and his crazy crew want the N bomb but do not have it and hopefully will not get it---Americans and Israelis know where the Pak N bombs are and will never let them be used.)
And yes Israel wil take out Iran's N bomb before it is viable --- within the next 5 years.
India is not a little girl.
India has to act.
The Indian people demand it.

China and Pakis are very happy tonight.
Indian politicians are weak-lings,
Let us see what happens.
By the way, Obama seems to understand that Pakistan is the problem. But he does not realize that he and the US have no role in deciding the Kashmir issue.

And you think everybody in Pakistan is a fundamentalist and wants to die.
Why wasn't obl among the suiciders?
Because he doesn't want to die yet.
He wants to fool young brainwashed kids to die for his plans.
This was done by ISI with LET. Paki military wants to slow Indian economy.
Because Pakiland is being destroyed, they want India destroyed too--equal equal.
No cricket in Paki---so no cricket in India.

If India does nothing, this type of terrorist action will happen every month.
Kill the crazies while they are still in Pakiland.
Send some cruise missiles into Rawalpindi. These terrorist acts stop tomorrow.
Ultimately Pakistan must be dis-membered by the international community.

weak-lings as opposed to weaklings lol

No cricket in Paki---so no cricket in India

Leaving Australia to win everything oh wait.

I just see shades of the summer of 1914 with that argument, Vic.

I mean his entire response is predicated on the premise that Pak won't use nukes. How can one be so sure? But up there Tariq Ali agrees with that point. Why is it worth the risk?

This was published in the Wall Street Journal, and is also advocating a military response..so just to show it's not just crazies like in my family ;) : http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122781446844662087.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Mumbai Attack Is Obama's First International Challenge

By PRASHANT AGRAWAL

I moved to Mumbai six years ago from New York City, and I have seen India change with each terrorist attack. Wednesday night's attack will prove a defining turning point. India will go from being "resiliently defensive" to "resolutely offensive."

To understand the impact on the financial capital of India one needs to know the unique place the Taj Mahal Hotel and the Oberoi Complex (both the Oberoi Trident and the Oberoi) play in the fabric of the city's life, especially for its professionals. The Taj Mahal Hotel and the Oberoi Complex are not just the Four Seasons and Pierre of New York City. They are Mumbai's lifeline and blood.

As a consultant and a hedge fund manager, I, like thousands of Mumbai professionals, could count on being at these hotels two to three times a week. In any given week, more than a dozen conferences are being held at either hotel attended by the city's lawyers, bankers, consultants and entrepreneurs. The hotels are the Ellis Island for foreign firms and foreign professionals. Whole floors of these hotels serve as offices. The first outpost office of any major MNC is the Taj or the Oberoi: McKinsey, Blackstone, Texas Pacific Group, the list is endless.

But the hotels are much more than financial destinations; they are cultural centers. The best bookshop in Mumbai is in the Taj. Out of the 10 best restaurants in the city, half are in these two hotels. After a late night out, the 24 hour coffee shops of both hotels are filled with young people using them as late-night diners. Visit these same coffee shops in the day and you might see two families having a cup of tea discussing a matrimonial alliance. For a Mumbaiker, these hotels serve as a second home.

Every Indian is familiar with the Taj, its iconic red brick architecture façade serves as the backdrop for so many stories and Bollywood movies. So when Sonia Gandhi, the President of the ruling Congress Party, says that these are attacks on India's prestige, she means it.

If the attacks on the two hotels were not enough, the CST train terminal was hit. One out of every 10 commuters uses the CST (formerly known as the Victoria Terminus) daily. And after attacking the CST, the terrorists hit the Cama Hospital, a hospital for women and children. The last major target was a Jewish center. Mumbai has housed an Iraqi Jewish community for centuries. Not once have they been targeted. That has changed.

These attacks are going to serve as a tipping point for India. India has had no less than 10 terrorist attacks over the last five years described as India's 9/11. And so now is the latest assault.

As the Indian landscape changed, so has the Indian attitude. The first Bollywood movie on the attacks highlighted the resilience of Mumbai citizens. But in conversations, writings and film, people have shifted from resilience to wanting revenge. One of the most successful movies of 2008 highlights an ordinary citizen taking revenge. The surprise hit of 2008 in India is a low-budget thriller called "Wednesday." "Wednesday" is a taut thriller where the audience is held in suspense. The person the audience believes is a terrorist hell-bent on releasing his jailed compatriots is actually a vigilante. He doesn't secure the release; he blows them up.

The audience cheers as he tells the police, "We (the people) are tired of being resilient. Our hands are not tied, we too can hit back." Audiences around the country clapped and cheered his soliloquy. And now with these attacks, the attitude hardens even more. CNN-IBN, the local English news channel, not known for hyperbole, is calling its coverage not Terror in Mumbai, but "War on Mumbai." Local anchors refer to the rescue operations as urban warfare.

Last week, at an Indian leadership summit, I watched Shashi Tharoor, the former U.N. Undersecretary General and India's candidate to be Secretary General, ask Henry Kissinger how India should react to Pakistani agents attacking the Indian Embassy in Kabul. Mr. Kissinger said it wasn't his place to answer. Fair enough, but the question remains what should India do?

India faces tough decisions over the next few weeks and months. Every time India has been hit, there has be no counter reaction. The vast majority of Indians believe that the attacks emanate from Pakistan. While most Indians don't blame Pakistanis, they do blame instruments and agents of the Pakistani government, specifically the ISI. With the bombing in Kabul, the U.S. confirmed that the ISI was involved adding an independent credible voice to India's charges of Pakistani involvement.

In his first speech on Thursday to the nation, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said "It is evident that the group which carried out these attacks, based outside the country, had come with single-minded determination to create havoc in the commercial capital." There is little doubt as to which country Prime Minister Singh has in mind.

The people will demand action against the masterminds of the attacks. And perception in India is that it is the ISI guides and masterminds the attacks. Elections in India are in due in the next six months and pressure will mount on the Indian government to act. Joe Biden was right, Barack Obama will face an international test in the first six months. South Asia looks to be that test.

damn right it's not "your place to answer" when you should be behind bars...

terrorists on coke, acid

whoa going on a killing spree is the worst trip idea ever

i dunno, last time i was tripping i ended up at my old high school at 3am and kind of freaked out, that was pretty bad

my friend moved back to Pakistan, or should I say 'got deported', and all I can do is worry that he will become one of these 'paki freedom fighters'. Hopefully they only recruit poor people... and my friend is poor but his dad makes mucho money so it's not like his life is unimportant in monetary terms.

my brother wrote me such a terrible email that i'm considering (temporarily) severing my relationship with him. i am now a terrorist-sympathizer/enabler/fan since i don't support war. almost tempted to post it here to get response ideas but i dont know if i even want to respond at this point

let it air out a little bit guy is just freaked out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7778074.stm

terrorize the jam like troops in pakistan

War would be bad but it would prolly do wonders for Pakistani/Indian nation cohesion

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11275197.html

i guess i should have read that for wingnuttery before linking it, but still - attack was planned for month prior to election

Arundhati Roy - an Indian Christian author, it should be remembered - quite OTM in the Guardian this week:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/12/mumbai-arundhati-roy

We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watching "India's 9/11". Like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we're expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it's all been said and done before.

As tension in the region builds, US Senator John McCain has warned Pakistan that if it didn't act fast to arrest the "Bad Guys" he had personal information that India would launch air strikes on "terrorist camps" in Pakistan and that Washington could do nothing because Mumbai was India's 9/11.

But November isn't September, 2008 isn't 2001, Pakistan isn't Afghanistan and India isn't America. So perhaps we should reclaim our tragedy and pick through the debris with our own brains and our own broken hearts so that we can arrive at our own conclusions.

---

There is a fierce, unforgiving fault-line that runs through the contemporary discourse on terrorism. On one side (let's call it Side A) are those who see terrorism, especially "Islamist" terrorism, as a hateful, insane scourge that spins on its own axis, in its own orbit and has nothing to do with the world around it, nothing to do with history, geography or economics. Therefore, Side A says, to try and place it in a political context, or even try to understand it, amounts to justifying it and is a crime in itself.

Side B believes that though nothing can ever excuse or justify terrorism, it exists in a particular time, place and political context, and to refuse to see that will only aggravate the problem and put more and more people in harm's way. Which is a crime in itself.

The sayings of Hafiz Saeed, who founded the Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure) in 1990 and who belongs to the hardline Salafi tradition of Islam, certainly bolsters the case of Side A. Hafiz Saeed approves of suicide bombing, hates Jews, Shias and Democracy and believes that jihad should be waged until Islam, his Islam, rules the world. Among the things he said are: "There cannot be any peace while India remains intact. Cut them, cut them so much that they kneel before you and ask for mercy."

And: "India has shown us this path. We would like to give India a tit-for-tat response and reciprocate in the same way by killing the Hindus, just like it is killing the Muslims in Kashmir."

But where would Side A accommodate the sayings of Babu Bajrangi of Ahmedabad, India, who sees himself as a democrat, not a terrorist? He was one of the major lynchpins of the 2002 Gujarat genocide and has said (on camera): "We didn't spare a single Muslim shop, we set everything on fire … we hacked, burned, set on fire … we believe in setting them on fire because these bastards don't want to be cremated, they're afraid of it … I have just one last wish … let me be sentenced to death … I don't care if I'm hanged ... just give me two days before my hanging and I will go and have a field day in Juhapura where seven or eight lakhs [seven or eight hundred thousand] of these people stay ... I will finish them off … let a few more of them die ... at least 25,000 to 50,000 should die."

And where, in Side A's scheme of things, would we place the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh bible, We, or, Our Nationhood Defined by MS Golwalkar, who became head of the RSS in 1944. It says: "Ever since that evil day, when Moslems first landed in Hindustan, right up to the present moment, the Hindu Nation has been gallantly fighting on to take on these despoilers. The Race Spirit has been awakening."
Or: "To keep up the purity of its race and culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the Semitic races – the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here ... a good lesson for us in Hindustan to learn and profit by."

(Of course Muslims are not the only people in the gun sights of the Hindu right. Dalits have been consistently targeted. Recently in Kandhamal in Orissa, Christians were the target of two and a half months of violence which left more than 40 dead. Forty thousand people have been driven from their homes, half of who now live in refugee camps.)

All these years Hafiz Saeed has lived the life of a respectable man in Lahore as the head of the Jamaat-ud Daawa, which many believe is a front organization for the Lashkar-e-Taiba. He continues to recruit young boys for his own bigoted jehad with his twisted, fiery sermons. On December 11 the UN imposed sanctions on the Jammat-ud-Daawa. The Pakistani government succumbed to international pressure and put Hafiz Saeed under house arrest. Babu Bajrangi, however, is out on bail and lives the life of a respectable man in Gujarat. A couple of years after the genocide he left the VHP to join the Shiv Sena. Narendra Modi, Bajrangi's former mentor, is still the chief minister of Gujarat. So the man who presided over the Gujarat genocide was re-elected twice, and is deeply respected by India's biggest corporate houses, Reliance and Tata.

Suhel Seth, a TV impresario and corporate spokesperson, recently said: "Modi is God." The policemen who supervised and sometimes even assisted the rampaging Hindu mobs in Gujarat have been rewarded and promoted. The RSS has 45,000 branches, its own range of charities and 7 million volunteers preaching its doctrine of hate across India. They include Narendra Modi, but also former prime minister AB Vajpayee, current leader of the opposition LK Advani, and a host of other senior politicians, bureaucrats and police and intelligence officers.

If that's not enough to complicate our picture of secular democracy, we should place on record that there are plenty of Muslim organisations within India preaching their own narrow bigotry.

So, on balance, if I had to choose between Side A and Side B, I'd pick Side B. We need context. Always.

In this nuclear subcontinent that context is partition. The Radcliffe Line, which separated India and Pakistan and tore through states, districts, villages, fields, communities, water systems, homes and families, was drawn virtually overnight. It was Britain's final, parting kick to us. Partition triggered the massacre of more than a million people and the largest migration of a human population in contemporary history. Eight million people, Hindus fleeing the new Pakistan, Muslims fleeing the new kind of India left their homes with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

Each of those people carries and passes down a story of unimaginable pain, hate, horror but yearning too. That wound, those torn but still unsevered muscles, that blood and those splintered bones still lock us together in a close embrace of hatred, terrifying familiarity but also love. It has left Kashmir trapped in a nightmare from which it can't seem to emerge, a nightmare that has claimed more than 60,000 lives. Pakistan, the Land of the Pure, became an Islamic Republic, and then, very quickly a corrupt, violent military state, openly intolerant of other faiths. India on the other hand declared herself an inclusive, secular democracy. It was a magnificent undertaking, but Babu Bajrangi's predecessors had been hard at work since the 1920s, dripping poison into India's bloodstream, undermining that idea of India even before it was born.

By 1990 they were ready to make a bid for power. In 1992 Hindu mobs exhorted by LK Advani stormed the Babri Masjid and demolished it. By 1998 the BJP was in power at the centre. The US war on terror put the wind in their sails. It allowed them to do exactly as they pleased, even to commit genocide and then present their fascism as a legitimate form of chaotic democracy. This happened at a time when India had opened its huge market to international finance and it was in the interests of international corporations and the media houses they owned to project it as a country that could do no wrong. That gave Hindu nationalists all the impetus and the impunity they needed.

This, then, is the larger historical context of terrorism in the subcontinent and of the Mumbai attacks. It shouldn't surprise us that Hafiz Saeed of the Lashkar-e-Taiba is from Shimla (India) and LK Advani of the Rashtriya Swayam Sevak Sangh is from Sindh (Pakistan).

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Thanks largely to the part it was forced to play as America's ally first in its war in support of the Afghan Islamists and then in its war against them, Pakistan, whose territory is reeling under these contradictions, is careening towards civil war. As recruiting agents for America's jihad against the Soviet Union, it was the job of the Pakistan army and the ISI to nurture and channel funds to Islamic fundamentalist organizations. Having wired up these Frankensteins and released them into the world, the US expected it could rein them in like pet mastiffs whenever it wanted to.

Certainly it did not expect them to come calling in heart of the Homeland on September 11. So once again, Afghanistan had to be violently remade. Now the debris of a re-ravaged Afghanistan has washed up on Pakistan's borders. Nobody, least of all the Pakistan government, denies that it is presiding over a country that is threatening to implode. The terrorist training camps, the fire-breathing mullahs and the maniacs who believe that Islam will, or should, rule the world is mostly the detritus of two Afghan wars. Their ire rains down on the Pakistan government and Pakistani civilians as much, if not more than it does on India.

If at this point India decides to go to war perhaps the descent of the whole region into chaos will be complete. The debris of a bankrupt, destroyed Pakistan will wash up on India's shores, endangering us as never before. If Pakistan collapses, we can look forward to having millions of "non-state actors" with an arsenal of nuclear weapons at their disposal as neighbours. It's hard to understand why those who steer India's ship are so keen to replicate Pakistan's mistakes and call damnation upon this country by inviting the United States to further meddle clumsily and dangerously in our extremely complicated affairs. A superpower never has allies. It only has agents.

oh, i should have either just pasted the whole thing. or just the link - but reading the entire thing over just my excerpts, highly recommended

Worrisome

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/18/mumbai-terror-suspect-pleads-guilty/?hpt=T1

what the fuck?!? never heard of this guy before. shocked and deeply ashamed that an American had anything to do with this

oh man not again

what to be done with these fuckers

people saying pakistan is unusually unified in the face of this. if the taliban are so far gone that they thought this might have worked in their favour then idk what is to be done with them

fairly certain whatever the solution is, it does not involve western intervention

saw this story on al-Jazeera regarding cross-border unity between Indians and Pakistanis, which was touching.
https://storify.com/ajstream/pakistanis

Interesting too to see the #notoalltalibanapologists tag trending, and people calling out Imran Khan.

Oh yeah? What's he said now?

He condemned the attacks outright. It's more around his longstanding policy of wanting the army out of the FATA and his belief that without negotiation and a certain number of concessions to the tribes, there'll never be peace.

he also said a few days ago that if he's elected, he won't send the army to tribal areas. That's getting a bit of traction now. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/national/03-Dec-2014/won-t-allow-army-in-tribal-areas-if-elected-pm-imran

Yes, the FATA are the Federally Administered Tribal Areas. They've traditionally been broadly self-regulating but the army has been active there since around 2001 on and off. It's one of those situations where the army is sent in to quell militancy but the presence of the army also provokes more militancy so there are no easy answers.

supposedly residents of the fata are very much in favour of the army being present.

The only survey ever quoted was conducted by a group with Bill Frist and John McCain on the board of directors, though. It's not easy to judge one way or the other.

Does anyone know what sort of a grip the Taliban has on the people of the FATA?

Weakening, I think. They have their own internal power struggles and a load of them have defected to other groups, including ISIS. The tribal elders in some areas have tolerated their presence, particularly when they were fighting the U.S., but they generally don't get on and there have been countless attacks by the Taliban on their leaders. They're still powerful enough for negotiation to be seen as a necessary strategy by many, though.

thank you, as usual, for your perspective here

when my nephews were in elementary school one of their classmates was killed (w/her dad) in Mumbai, there is a memorial garden at their old school.

pictures from schools in the FATA bombed by militants: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/inpictures/2014/05/pictures-bombed-schools-pakista-201451612222401436.html

Any good articles collating all the facts so far about this latest thing?