Stansted

Is it just me who feels somewhat nauseated by yesterday's "protest"?

There was a particularly smug student type on ITN News who, when asked whether this was at all fair on people who needed to travel, replied with a sickening grin, "Well, they shouldn't really be flying at all."

Interesting article in today's Times which seems to indicate what the real motive here is.

It's got nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with outraged, privileged middle class whingers who can't stand having to share airspace with ordinary people whom they clearly regard as scum.

Use the green argument as a convenient excuse to price air travel out of the range of affordability of the likes of scum like you and me - a very artful dodge.

Just what the Mail ordered.

Joss Garman, 23, the grandson of a pilot, who founded Plane Stupid, said that yesterday’s protesters were “not the sort of people who usually go in for activist stuff”, adding that they were “educated, scientifically literate, passionate and eloquent”.

Aren't these exactly the "type of people" who "go in for activist stuff"?

I don't buy that at all Marcello, it's got everything to do with climate change. It's heartening that young people are actually doing *something* when all they've seen from older generations is a lot of talk and not much else. Sure, what they did is probably no way to win over the general public, but I don't doubt their good intentions.

I think that what Joss Garman means is that it wasn't yer crusty stereotype of bygone days.

Swampy was all of the things Mr Garman thinks he wasn't, if you see what I mean.

They looked as though they were enjoying seeing ordinary passengers suffer, miss holidays, weddings, funerals and so forth.

Maybe if people want to travel anywhere else on the planet they should just build their own rowing boat and take 18 months to reach there, provided they're still alive by then.

Sorry but I'm not prepared to go back to the seventeenth century because business class can't stand the lower orders having more fun than them.

And the whole climate change thing?

Marcello, you're reading stuff into this that just isn't there. If anything, the protestors are taking a much bigger view of social justice - it's the world's poorest who are the most vulnerable to the effects of climate change.

Ah yes, convenient starving Africans whom they don't have to live next door to, and when they do they're terrorist p43do so called asylum seeker scum.

They don't give a toss about climate change; most of the protestors will disengage themselves of the notion as speedily as George Osborne did as soon as they take up their chair of the family trust.

So why are they bothering then?

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http://i17.piczo.com/view/5/5/7/h/1/z/v/0/s/9/d/img/i243963371_76976_2.gif

Consider us all zinged.

Okay, so a lot of the folks protesting would have been at last year's demo at Kingsnorth power station. I guess by extension, they were demonstrating against coal because they don't want 'the lower orders' to have heating, is that right? They can't stand the thought of chavs being warm? Just drives them nuts and they would rather get arrested yes?

Rather predicatbly I know quite a few people on the stansted protest and yes, by an large they are the educated middle class. But to say that it is a classist attack on 'scum' (not like you, marcello, you are thoroughly middle class) is plain daft.

The HYS argument against these protesters is almost always, 'I'm sure they flew in to protest' and this is certainly not true.

We are in this situation now because aviation has been massively subsidised with infrastructure construction and tax free fuel for the last 50 years.

I was sitting next to a plane stupid activist at a party the other week, chatting away about my plans to go back to school and get into the cleantech industry and I did gently rib my companion that it might have been far better not to bother with an english degree and get one in engineering and be providing solutions rather than protesting against problems.

Fair enough, but how long before Cameron wheels out one of these Plane Stupid campaigners as some sort of special youth environmental spokesperson

Not very likely.

I'd be very surprised if the Tories weren't working on this

Nah the Tories are only interested in appropriating the nice bits of environmentalism.

I'm sure they are, I don't see those particular activist taking up with any politcal party. They are very into consensus based democracy rather than majority based.

No, they're only interested in getting people to vote for them (xp)

Was at the climate change march in London on Saturday and among the speakers there was John McDonnell from Labour, Caroline Lucas, and also Nick Clegg (he got a few gentle boos, some scattered polite applause and was generally a bit creepy). Not one Tory speaker though.

I assume Zac Goldsmith doesn't go on these marches

It's got nothing to do with climate change and everything to do with outraged, privileged middle class whingers who can't stand having to share airspace with ordinary people whom they clearly regard as scum.

Use the green argument as a convenient excuse to price air travel out of the range of affordability of the likes of scum like you and me - a very artful dodge.

Godammit, Marc: That was exactly my thought!

I dunno Tom, but I think there is maybe some distrust of Goldsmith since he shacked up with Cameron. Boris is seriously damaging the Tories environmental credentials, they're definitely ground there.

righto, read the rest of this thread.

I wasn't sure I was exactly right in my first impression, it's just more that this is the sort of thing where a 'posh student' saying blithe things can reduce a protest to the level of "we are more educated than the people travelling", and too often this is what comes across.

The world is much more accessible than it ever was, and research should be channelled into greener airfuels and so on.

OK, read this as 'I still want to be able to fly places inexpensively', but its the usual thing: Individuals recycle more, companies include more packaging. People fly less, industry carries on polluting majorly. etc

I think there is maybe some distrust of Goldsmith since he shacked up with Cameron

Don't know why, environmentalism has always been a safe haven for right wingers, as far as I can tell

^^^this, qf the number of Green Party activists who just accidentally-on-purpose appeared on that BNP list.

Because it's horrible PEOPLE who are destroying our planet

Mark G, the main argument is not with the cost flying being too low, it's with the ever increasing number of flights. If we're going to have any chance of reducing overall carbon emissions, you are going to have to limit air travel to some extent. One idea on the table is equal distribution of personal carbon credits, so then you're not excluding the poorest from flying, and if they don't want to fly, then they can sell their credits.

One idea on the table is equal distribution of personal carbon credits

yeah, tell that to JLo, Beyonce, etc...

I'm not saying that's a bad idea, just it will never (ahem) fly.

Don't know why, environmentalism has always been a safe haven for right wingers, as far as I can tell

There's lots of shades of green out there. The trad Tory end of things is the CPRE stuff, the nimbys, the country pursuits types. People broadly into protecting 'the landscape' above all else.

I'm not saying that's a bad idea, just it will never (ahem) fly.

No, it probably won't. Like I said, lots of talk, lots of greenwash, not enough do. Hence the direct action stuff borne out of frustration I guess. Certainly there was a strong mood for it on Saturday.

The big problem is that because flying is so cheap there has been no impetus to find cheaper ways of flying (or covering large distances quickly). Fuel efficiency gains for air-travel have not come anywhere near those for road transport because of the economics of the situation, aviation fuel remains untaxed and cheap. Look how fast airlines tried to catch up on avaition bio-fuels research when the oil price was $150 a barrel.

Ed, the other way of looking at it is a protestor with an English degree can probably articulate her/himself better than an engineer or scientist and can help to provide the demand in public that allows business to see a potential for future profit firm up at just the right time for someone going back to school to work on science and engineering to solve these mounting problems. So everyone needs everyone else.

Re. this news cycle, I'm waiting until someone finds the cojones to /backhand/punch/slap Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary live on TV, the most over-entitled, snide rich bastard I think I have ever encountered in the public sphere. That's what someone who thinks everyone else is scum really looks like.

Right wingers have always found it easier to be kind to animals and look after where they live than to be kind to people outside 'tribe' who live right beside them. That's a given. Also in Britain I do get a bit ennnnghhhh about it only/mostly being groups of white people saving their precious Albion but that's only a kind of fleeting feeling.

My drinking companion knew that my tongue was, at least partly, in cheek.

This thread is a spectacularly competitive strawman-building contest.

Ed, the other way of looking at it is a protestor with an English degree can probably articulate her/himself better than an engineer or scientist

it's no good being able to express yourself if everybody assumes you haven't much idea of what you're talking about.

if we're talking about limiting the amount of flying that people can do, it'll come down to the same way we limit everything else- money.

It'll be interesting to see how many of yesterday's protestors turn up as Tory junior whips in ten years' time.

A far more efficient protest would maybe have been outside the offices of Transport for London to sort out the stupid traffic light phasing which probably causes more carbon emissions in an hour (with all those vehicles backed up at red lights every two seconds because somebody mixed up London with Lisbon and thought people could just walk; see also vested transport authority interests in keeping traffic congestion afloat) than the third Stansted runway would cause in a year.

But, of course, that wouldn't have been such A Good Story.

Who the hell thought it was a fine idea last Saturday to pedestrianise Oxford Street and simultaneously allow a Hyde Park-Trafalgar Square protest to go down Piccadilly, thus ensuring that getting in or out of central London above ground was impossible?

What's the point of opening shopping streets up to pedestrians only for one day when it takes ten hours to get there because all the bus routes had to be diverted?

BLUNDERING BORIS' BUS BOTCH-UP

STRANDED IN STANSTED STANDOFF

A far more efficient protest would maybe have been outside the offices of Transport for London to sort out the stupid traffic light phasing which probably causes more carbon emissions in an hour...

Well go on then Marcello, there is nothing stopping you!

takes too long to get there?

see also vested transport authority interests in keeping traffic congestion afloat

pls to explain?

The same person who ensured that tubes were suspended when I needed to get to Hyde Park Corner for a friend's engagement/skate party, which meant going to Marble Arch thinking I could go to HPC easily in a taxi down Park Lane. Bad executive decisions on the part of the cabbie to avoid what probably would have been a mini-jam in Mayfair due to road closures everywhere had us through the park and into Knightsbridge instead, with me SEETHING at £15 grand total fare. Almost ruined my night.

I hate bus diversions because the fuckers don't anoounce that there IS one, then don't stop at logical places along the diversion to let people out, also they tend to drive the diversion super-fast to capsize all the standees on the bus.

SOMEBODY think about the Corporate Travel Consultants would have had to dealt with this.

Marcello, I'll wager my crayfish and rocket sandwich against your deepfried coaldust suet pudding that none of them end up as tory whips.

Protest was bankrolled by multimillionaire Lush owner Mark Constantine, fwiw.

Anyone can write a list of charities - it doesn't necessarily mean they contribute to them.

So he didn't contribute to Plane Stupid after all?

It's a very strange list for someone to make though if they don't give a shit. The internal consistency is quite impressive too, there are clear themes running through it. Thinking about the animal charities there all being more on the animal rights side of things, rather than more obvious people like the RSPCA who are more of a welfarist group. It's details like that that make it convincing.

Yes, like Hitler, Alan Clark, Brigitte Bardot and others who have problems with human beings.

It's details like that that make it convincing that you're actually just ranting here.

Mark Constantine cares nothing about anything except his company making profits

Marcello Carlin brings the inside scoop on the motivation of a man he doesn't know.

It's reassuring that most of this pointless unfounded bile seems to be down to the buses being a bit shite in London.

Godwin's law to thread.

OK, if you want to be cynical,

A listof small charities, where a small donation accounts fora larger percentage of their income, makes for a diverse list of causes.

Did anyone 'doubt' ARoddick's committment to the causes she subscribed to?

I think it would be VERY FOOLISH INDEED to posit that Constantine or the late A. Roddick did not care and/or genuinely support the causes they endorse. Seriously, Marcello: you're in a feedback loop with this idea.

Classic example of Marcello failing to back up his ridiculous initial premise (green campaigning as secret war on the working class?) and simply moving on to another one. Never mind the buses, the traffic lights and the soap guy - where's a whisper of evidence to support the initial argument? At least you have an ally in Michael O'Leary.

"how long before Cameron wheels out one of these Plane Stupid campaigners as some sort of special youth environmental spokesperson

― Ich Ber ein Binliner (Tom D.), Tuesday, December 9, 2008 12:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink"

when hell freezes over but is THEN MELTED AGAIN BY THE GLOBAL WARMING AHAHAHA DYS

http://www.chasingthefrog.com/movie-villains/darth-vader/shawscene.jpg
"he's more troll then man, now..."

I am anti-new runways and suspect most people are. It's hard to understand why they are needed because it's rare to be in a situation where you can't get a seat on the flight you want when booking weeks in advance or whatever. It seems odd to think that more runways and more flights will mean more sales. How much of it is down to big business wanting to cut costs on private flights? What are the other alleged advantages to such plans?

I'd like to see evidence of actual contributions to charity on the part of Mr Constantine and his organisation, really, i.e. the proper books, not the cooked ones.

But I don't really see what's socialist or just about preventing people from going about their business simply because an extra runway's being built because there's more demand for air travel because more people can afford it because there are MORE PEOPLE.

Or are Plane Stupid going to revive the old eugenics meme as a possible solution? It didn't work for Orlando.

Socialism has nothing to do with either side of this argument.

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone's argument and speculating wildly about their "real" motives. If you believe an extra runway is needed, can't the campaigners against one still be sincere? Apparently not - they have to be closet Tories or potential eugenicists.

http://www.nhbs.com/images/jackets_resizer_large/16/163551.jpg

Marcello, ^^^^ is a book that Constantine wrote last year to quite a lot of acclaim in the wildlife press. He is a birdwatcher and loves wildlife. He gives money to environmental charities. The logical inference here is that he is giving these donations because he cares about the issues. Are you suggesting that he wrote a book on birdsong as some sort of ruse? Maybe to get birdwatchers to buy his soap?

Mark Constantine & The Sound Approach does sound like a mod band though.

There are legitimate ways to protest without disrupting the lives of others who have nothing to do with any political debate.

If these do not succeed then people have the option of voting out the Government at the next General Election.

I am unconvinced, however, that this is anything other than a publicity stunt and I am sure Cameron will warmly greet Mr Constantine when he steps up to the podium at the next Conservative election rally.

Cynical? Or just being honest?

Or just being stupidly obtuse?

There are legitimate ways to protest without disrupting the lives of others who have nothing to do with any political debate.

Like marching down Piccadilly maybe.

What's wrong with marching down Staines High Street?

Downing Street website petitions? Worked for Clarkson.

Protests that don't cause disruption are pretty fucking useless.

Thread of the month imo

Before you make claims like that, wait until I start talking about the miner's strike and how Marcello would be all "socialism but not in my backyard".

wtf is an "engagement/skate party"?

"There are legitimate ways to protest without disrupting the lives of others who have nothing to do with any political debate."

So what about strikes? They're pretty disruptive and inconvenient. That's kind of the point.

I've started watching Top Gear this series and I really enjoy it.

What position to you hope to hold in Cameron's first Cabinet?

Minister for Compression Issues

This wasn't a strike though.

Protests that don't cause disruption are pretty fucking useless

if the choice is between ineffectual and inconvenient then we really are doomed

I've started watching Top Gear this series and I really enjoy it.

look out for the endless repeats on Dave - great show

The Mayor of London should certainly be concentrating on his job instead of going on Top Gear. Maybe then central London would be coherently managed at weekends.

HOW DO YOU EVEN KNOW HE WAS ON TOP GEAR YOU FUCKING TORY FUCK

Mildly hysterical but good rant byex-Marxist blokey thingy.

ex-marxists are usually mad, but mick hume was already a crazy, stalin-loving fuck.

By the standards of this thread I'm not sure it even qualifies as hysterical.

No, it's thoughtful, wide ranging and considered.

No surprise that the ex-Living Marxism lot are taking that stance. Those guys at Spiked are big on the 'green campaigning as secret war on the working class' stuff. Martin Durkin, the guy who made 'the Great Global Warming Swindle' is one of them and they've shown absolutely zero understanding of the science so far.

Cynical? Or just being honest?

^^^^new meme

Oasis have really gone down hill since Definitely Maybe. Cynical? Or just being honest?

It is a small tragedy that the idealism of youth should be recruited to this anti-flying circus.

yeah, if only it were redirected to denying the existence of serbian concentration camps and acting as a front for various GM companies.

What, like Lush cosmetics (allegedly)?

Someone get this guy a bath bomb.

Can I have absinthe flavour? I believe they're currently on discount at Woolworths.

Sick Mouthy: my friend got engaged and took a bunch of people ice skating at Winter Wonderland in Hyde Park to celebrate. It's the ONLY sport I'm even remotely good at!

I was assuming it would involve fish.

Sick Mouthy, sick mind - or spending too much time with awesome cats.