how far does duty to your parents extend ?

have no idea where to start but here's a very brief sumamry.

despite having inherited a small fortune 30 years ago, my parents have never ever been able to live within their means, primarily because they refuse to actually get a proper job and work for a living, yet seem to insist on having a life of semi-luxury.
20 years ago they hit their first bankruptcy and insisted i handed over my hard earned fun-fund that i had saved for college (£1000 in 1986 was a chunk o cash for me).
i never saw a penny of it back, nor was i ever thanked.
4 years ago they were in need of cash. they came a begging. i lent £1500, under the false assurances i would be repaid given the history involved.
after some pushing in the following 6 months i got £400 back.
next time i asked i was severely put in my place and made to feel guilty for asking for it
[emotional guilt has been a very important part of their style of parenting - to which i am only just waking up to now]
therefore due to long term communication issues with my parents meant i have never been able to mention it again, much to the annoyance of my wife.
however, 18 months ago, my sister ended up handing over her credit card to my father, unbeknown to her own husband.
subsequently over the next 18 months my parents have racked up/stelen £5,500 of debt under my sisters name - still without her husbands knowledge [no idea how].
anyways, a couple of months ago my parents needed a car [naturally public transport is too beneath them], and due to their multiple bankruptcies ended up 'buying' a car off a street trader, ie. thug, that happens to live next door to my sister and her kids.
of course as to be expected, they have not paid the man.
and so we're up to date, and the big issue of the day is that the man is getting nasty.
very nasty.
and bringing it to my sisters house.
there is no way i can help out financially again due to own family issues, and my sister has had to come clean with her husband re the credit card debt meaning that that source of cash is now well and truly shut down.

so the question is : as kids, how far should we step in and help out ?

bearing in mind these are parents who have shown little interest in our lives, never once helped out in 12 years of being grandparents, have been outright nasty to my wife etc etc.

so why is it i feel awful and full of guilt despite knowing they are suffering the outcome of their own lifestyle choice, am i wrong not to dip into the pot again and be the dutiful son they believe i should be ?

rob your parents blind

nothing to rob. they are homeless.

I was thinking this was going to be about changing grownup diapers. Maybe you ought to talk to like, a lawyer, instead of the internet.

oh burt stanton is here, nm

nah - i aint needing a lawyer.
i aint overly fussed re the money they owe me, its peanuts in comp to the outstanding monies owed to my sister.
its the fact i know they are going to get beaten up .. and the guilt really.
i guess just needed to vent some anger.

re grown up diapers.
oh fuck never even thought about that aspect of life thats surely on its way.
ta for that. made my evening all the better.

cut 'em off. tell them they've made their bed and walk away to let them sleep in it.

you fruity brits really use the word aint?

destined to be a classic

kneejerk response: nobody deserves a beating, no matter what. if you can help out somehow with the thug issue, you should. convincing them to give the car back would be best.

beyond that, your duty to them doesn't extend past their duty to you, which doesn't look to be very far.

Good Christ, that's rough -- especially with someone coming after your sister's family. Communications issues or not, if you wind up having to bail them out of this one, you and your sister will need to come at them afterward, together and directly, and tell them that neither of you are going to finance them ever again until it involves paying for a nursing home -- that you're happy to help them budget or plan but your money just isn't going there anymore. I mean, it's something you're going to need to sort out in the short term, before you get to that long-term point where children are actually expected to take care of their parents.

yes, i do use the "aint".
i make no apologies for that.

giving the car seems to be only option .. it has been suggested.

Is that like some kind-of Ali G thing, or did it come from you guys? In grammar school in the US our teachers harangued us that "aint isn't proper English!!!"

burt_STFUanton

i'm too old to admit to any ali g involvment, this goes way further back than that particular cultural highlight burt.

I feel like there's probably a way of using Burt to solve the parent problem here, I just can't put my finger on what it is.

Why wouldn't fruity British people say ain't, seeing as it's, er, an English word?

xposts

In this situation I guess because it's involving your sister, I would probably try to help if I could, but after that forget it. Really doesn't sound like they deserve it.

sorry about your parents

frankly I think you're taking the piss with this post

to asshole americans really say 'taking the piss'?

I wouldnt lift a finger. They sound like horrible selfish assholes and I've never held truck with familial guilt.

Though if this involves other family being threatened I guess do what you have to - basically I agree with Nabisco.

is this some "takes one to know one" thing, burt? xposts

if you wind up having to bail them out of this one

you see it cant happen. my wife and my sisters husband have (quite rightly i'd suggest) clipped this posibility.

personally i think its a crunch time, and the point re 'making their bed - lie in it' is the order of the day.

if they were involved with us/my kids then i'd feel a lot more attached - but the truth is, they are b*stards and have burnt every bridge in their lives. no-one in the extended family, and there are plenty, talks to them anymore, and the reason ? yup you guessed it.
my parents owe them money.

i feel this is line in the sand time.

It very much is. If bankruptcy couldnt stop them, then something has to, and maybe this is it.

It sounds like your parents will have to swallow their pride. This, actually, could be advantageous! As in it sounds like they have hit the "rock bottom" it supposedly takes to see that you need to change, and this is probably good for your whole family.

Obviously, making them return the car would be plan A. I sense there's a possibility the guy may not be happy with people being like "oops lol I actually had no money but it was nice to borrow your car." Do they have any furniture, goods, jewelry, etc, they could pawn or sell? They could get money that way if the guy demanded some sort of remuneration. That doesn't seem like your parents' "style." If it is really a problem for the sis, I'd pool up enough money to make the guy feel okay (I mean obv not the price of the car).

They've put their own daughter in a situation that severely threatened her safety (or sense thereof, which is just as important). So you have an angle to guilt them! "You've shown time and time again that you are not responsible with money, and you can't be trusted with loans or debt. You've complicated things greatly over the past few years between your children and their spouses, and it's put a strain on everyone's relationships. This time, you really put (family member) in trouble. From now on, we can't give you any more money. We won't even listen to discussions of your money problems, as they have nothing to do with us." etc etc etc

and maybe they'll finally knock it off! This sucks balls, but it could be a catalyst for you guys saying "no más" on the money front and being able to stick to it.

I have similar fears about my parents being irresponsible, going through bankruptcies, and generally being completely unprepared to retire.

However, they haven't ripped off everyone they know and they are really sweet people. So I ended up buying them two used cars this year.

If they were like the ones Mark describes, I'd have cut them off years ago.

totally agree re swallowing pride.
a little humility goes a long long way and this would be the first time in 40 years of my life should such a thing happen.
but yes, you have the ideal scenario there abbot, but they become like caged wild animals in times like this (i know), and react very very nastily to any accusations of wrong doing.
i have tried before, and still have the scars to prove it.
oh - and no - they have nothing to pawn/sell.

The thing is, if I understand correctly, it's not your parents you are bailing out here, it's your sister? I don't think anyone wants to see anyone get beaten up here and I would suggest paying whatever you have to to stop that happening but make sure they KNOW there's a line in the sand being drawn.

I honestly don't know what I would do in this situation. I would probably buckle under the guilt even if my head would be saying 'fuck them'. And presumably they have other problems, ie nowhere to live? Are they likely to be able to do anything at all to support themselves?

Yes, if you draw a line in the sand and say "no más," you can feel okay to be like "Look, I'm hanging up on you" or "We're not talking about this" or "I have nothing to do with that and I've told you we won't give you money or talk about it" bcz LINE was DRAWN.

My mom-in-law sounds like your mom, mark, monetarily and as far as reasoning goes.

And they'll try and guilt you and make you feel like shit, but hold your ground and cross your fingers they'll quit it someday.

my sister can bail herself out - i think the thug will realise its nothing to do with my sister in all fairness.
just that she is somewhat stressed about it.
the truth is we aren't that close and they have the finances themselves so don't need me to step in.
its the fact that the old'uns have pushed things too fucking far this time and due to my history with them, i lose all sense of proportion in regards to their situation(s).
having people tell me to walk away and fuck'em is what i think i needed.
and i distinctly recall i told them 4 years ago there was a line in the sand when i handed over the £1500, but i still i caved in to their emotional guilt games as before.
its easy to begin to think you should always do whatever, but in reality, i think they are due a serious reality check, and the credit card episode has just delayed that from happening previously.
and to answer your last question re support themselves : nope.

They'll be ABLE to but they WON'T, it sounds like. Which is a huge part of why it's so frustrating, I'd imagine? I've always lived within my means and I have difficulty giving sympathy or help to people who actively refuse to even try & do so. (That's what's getting me vicariously pissed off here.)

(That's what's getting me vicariously pissed off here.)

sorry. welcome to the last 20 years of my life.
they have constantly avoided the whole "get up and work for a living" rule that most people realise is how to pay for food and clothes.

No, it's vicariously pissed off bcz I've had to deal with/figure out how much/whether to help (etc) such people. Don't feel bad!

I'm trying to remember how that lesson is taught to children. I think it involves waiting until the next time they need money and offering them $40 to sweep out your garage.

It was drilled in to my head SO HARD from the day I was born. "We're not going to buy that 10¢ piece of candy – that's a need, not a want!" "You better get a job now because I had to get a job when I was 14 so I could sew clothes for my sisters!" "No, I'm not voting for the school bond. We have no money but I can make a budget and get by just fine? Why can't they?"

So it was kind of culture shock marrying a dude whose spendthrift mom's main form of income is guilting her kids.

http://www.hbo.com/thewire/img/castcrew/character_season04/delondabrice.jpg

^^my most-hated character on the Wire, even more than Marlo.

I would agree except that I had a love-to-hate thing going on with Kenard.

man mark e

that situation sucks. i'm very sorry.

i don't think you should help them anymore.

- "dude on the internet"

until it involves paying for a nursing home

no fuckin way, not even that.

this sucks mark, but if you think your sister will be ok then i think you know just to leave it this time.

hmm if someone was threatening to beat up my parents or sister i'd call the cops

hmm if someone was threatening to beat up my parents or sister i'd call the cops

i believe the police have indeed been advised .. but as always until something "happens" they are pretty powerless.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxpost - But "ain't" SHOULD be a word! (And it probably IS a word by now.) "Are not" and "is not" both begat contractions, so why should "am not" be any different?

worry about your sister. your parents deserve nothing more than the coldest of shoulders available. this behavior is abominable.

as I was raised I was taught and regularly reminded that you never ever lend money to family or friends - the most typical outcome is that you don't get it back and the relationship is poisoned forever, so if you do give a significant sum of money to someone you care about, treat it as a gift (but really, never ever do this).

I paid my sister's rent and bills several years ago when she was out of a job. She said she'd pay me back but never did. It is not a big deal, though, because I love her and that is why I did it.

I also know that if people really love you, they will return the favor one way or another, even if it takes a long time.

the outcome : under police advise, my parents met the street thug in a certain part of town which was heavily covered by cctv should anything happen. they handed the car back, and then gave my sister full-on guilt as she refused to help pay out for it.
at least no-one got thumped. well, not this time.

"aint isn't proper English!!!"

It is in the South.

I'm sorry you have so much drama going on mark. Except for squandering a small fortune this tale could be about my mother.

Don't help them. I know the guilt trips are hard but seriously it's not your responsibility to fix their problems especially since it doesn't go both ways.

Year before last my mother said she needed money and I was thinking, "okay I can throw her a couple of hundred." Then she asked for 2k (which is a lot for me.) I was flabbergasted and told her I couldn't do it. She then threatened to call my boyfriend and ask him. I said if she did I'd never speak to her again.

In the end I gave her $400 and a few months later she sent me a check for $150 that said "1/2!" Uh. . . I never saw another dime. Big surprise.

until it involves paying for a nursing home

no fuckin way, not even that.

Not sure how it works in other countries, but I'm (almost) sure you're expected to help pay for a nursing home (if the parents aren't able to). Not morally, but more legally. I think, however, you can legally severe your ties. It involves quite a bit of money and paperwork, but it can be done. (Unless you're a single kid, which we found out.)

As has been stated before: I would help out your sister. Noone wants to see your sister get a nasty beating. Return car and you'll probably also need to pay a bit of cash/interest. Other than that, I'd severe ties with the parents.

but I'm (almost) sure you're expected to help pay for a nursing home (if the parents aren't able to).

Haha, not here. They're on their own there. Also, no bunking up in the guest bedroom.

now ain't the time for your tears

xpost Wow! Lucky you.

Other than that, I'd severe ties with the parents

i'd love to do so, but they are the only grandparents my kids have.
having said that, we are due to see them on sunday, and if it goes as i expect it will, i suspect it could all kick off [ie. demands for us to throw more cash on the fire] resulting in such an outcome.

xpost : re uk nursing homes : phew. stevie got me worried there !

i'd love to do so, but they are the only grandparents my kids have.

Even without this I imagine it's pretty stressful to cut family off altogether. And this is certainly a good reason not to.

Just being a bigger person than them and trying to resist the guilt trips sounds like the way to go (though not easy). Maybe they can learn from the "tough love".

I do mean severing ties in a financial way. Not necessarily emotional/complete way. My grandparents were crap and I only saw'em off and on through the years. I never did miss'em when they weren't around. But that's me. Not sure how your kids feel about their grandparents. It all depends on how much a (negative) impact they have when they are around, know what I mean? But still, didn't really mean in a complete way. I would however check out how legally responsible you are when it comes to their financial problems.

I would however check out how legally responsible you are when it comes to their financial problems

In the UK: you're not, at all. End of story.

Mark, this is a rotten situation and my heart goes out to you. For what it's worth, I think Nabisco's advice upthread was (predictably) OTM. For your sister's sake, the immediate situation needs sorted out. But after that -- tough as fuck though it will be -- you need a serious, serious family talk :)

What a horrible situation, glad it all got resolved. I'll just add my voice to the chorus and say that you either have to cut them off financially, or accept that any "loans" are actually gifts, as you'll never see the money again. From painful experience I've come to learn that the type of person who asks for a loan is invariably impulsive, persuasive and self-centred, i.e. the type of person that is unlikely to pay you back. I guess it'll be a difficult conversation but you and your sis have basically been bullied by your own parents which is decidedly NOT ON, and you'll have to go through this painful process to resolve it. Best of luck with it all, really.

Fucking families.

have basically been bullied by your own parents

agreed.
i realised this truth about 4 years ago during a particular period of soul searching when a lot of memories came flooding back into my consciousness. my sister has yet to wake up to this fact. though i think the penny dropped yesterday.

ta for all the suggestions/advise etc.
really appreciate the spread of opinions, has been quite an eye opener to say the least.

Yeah, nice to think about a grand Hollywood-style confrontation where the wrongdoers learn an important life lesson etc, but it doesn't really happen that way! You always have to broker a deal in some way, I suppose you need a strong idea of what you want and stick to it. Urgh, my heart goes out to you, good luck on Sunday.

try to remember that they sort of put your sister in a testy situation with a street thug and didn't seem to give a shit about her being in said situation, and consider them deserving of as much respect as they gave her. tbh i would also take this situation into account when it comes to your children, because you don't want them to someday go past you and your sister and start laying some kind of bullshit guilt trips on them.

^^^ just what i was going to post after i read the bit about your kids having only them for grandparents.

mark, your kids really don't need grandparents. they will not grow up lesser ppl for not having had grandparents, esp if these are the only ones on offer. i can't imagine how hard it must be for you, but you and your family (i.e. your wife/kids) deserve better than this.

try to remember that they sort of put your sister in a testy situation with a street thug and didn't seem to give a shit about her being in said situation, and consider them deserving of as much respect as they gave her. tbh i would also take this situation into account when it comes to your children, because you don't want them to someday go past you and your sister and start laying some kind of bullshit guilt trips on them.

This is perfect advice, given the situation.

you don't want them to someday go past you and your sister and start laying some kind of bullshit guilt trips on them.

oh trust me, i will make sure that this never happens.

yeah i've no doubt!

but also i think it's better for them to be persona non grata than to have your kids witness all this weird stuff as it occurs.

2 years on, and its happened again.
the old man has spent 6 months housing benefit on fags and booze, and so they have been served notice by their long suffering landlord.
they cant get housing assoc place until they clear the debt with the landlord.
so guess who is getting the guilt hassle.
fucking perfect timing given that life is maxed out with heavy stuff (fuck cancer)
oh, and they never cleared the debt with my sister .. she had to extend her mortgage in order to clear the credit card debt.