Question: Do British say "Happy Holidays"?

Subquestion: If not, why does this disparity exist between the American and British peoples?

No we don't say this, only variants like 'have a good holiday' when people are going on vacation. For seasonal things like xmas and easter the festival is reffered to.
Why? Something to do with Anglicanism being the national church for hundreds of years?

(that last sentence sounded sarcastic, i didn't mean it to. I don't know if that's the exact answer, im guessing.)

Of couse, xmas and easter merely serve as marking points in the year and their signifigance is mainly as regards work and fammily, rather than religion, for a good deal of Brits. So in that respect I 'd say they have a similar, even identical function to Americans.

Also these are merely vestiges of a religious (and thus social) calendar that used to resemble that of The Catholic Church in Catholic countries.

Yes, but Hanukkah still exists, I think.

Is America more "PC"?

"Yes, but Hanukkah still exists, I think."

What are you saying, here?

are you the new tuomas? hanukkah is celebrated in britain, regardless of what the nat'l church is/has been

no we scots dont anyway

Did you read my point upthread that people say 'happy xmas' and 'happy easter' without being invested in any religious signifigance those things used to have, and that these festivals seem to serve the same functions for Brits as for Americans? Are you the old Tuomas?

They call them "crisps"

uh, do you realize that explains nothing?

And looking at the two cultures in general, if its really right to talk about them in this monolithic way, I don't think America is more 'pc' as such than Britain. The difference in this case is mainly down to tradition leading to different words being used for pretty much the same modern things.

phew, you sure do know how to make a person feel welcome on your thread, roxy !)

its interesting that americans developed a pan-holiday greeting for general use (i.e. use with strangers whose religious preference is not known to one) and brits did not

although i think perhaps "happy holidays" developed as a seasonal thing, applying from thanksgiving to new year's. maybe.

Is America more "PC"?

America (as in the USA) may or may not be more culturally heterogenous than Britain. However, the USA has generally proved to be more culturally flexible than Britain.

THAT makes sense.

holidays isn't really more PC though that's still religious!

HOLY DAYS

Even if that was the commonly accepted meaning, "holidays" is still more PC because it is more inclusive than "Merry Christmas"!

people in the uk i think generally just celebrate fewer things because they're all grumpy telegraph readers

^also sensible

"However, the USA has generally proved to be more culturally flexible than Britain."

Yup, on the whole this is true, and i think the fact that britain has this national church which is a uniquely individual/quirky sytnthesis of protestantism, catholicism and secularism has led to a provincialism which America with its nonconformist beginnings, immigration, mixed cultures and churches and internationalist attitude doesn't have. This despite the fact that provincial isolationalism of its own kind has obviously evolved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

yes, it is a government mandate that we say "happy holidays"!!!

No, British people don't say "happy holidays". I'd always assumed the main reason was that the Jewish population of the UK is tiny and, for a variety of reasons I don't really understand, seems to be less culturally significant than the Jewish population in the U.S.

maybe cause its tiny

It's 0.5% in the UK and 2% in the US, which doesn't seem like enough of a difference to totally explain why I was barely away of Judaism until I started watched Seinfeld

away = aware

watched = watching

lol 3am

Nobody outside North America says 'happy holidays'

wait, so saying "happy holidays" is a jewish innovation?

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=954

i like where this thread is going dot jpg

xp

lol

Also, here in america, we are graced by our annual "War on Christmas" to add to the festivities

why do these people care so much about this shit?

note: I'm totally roasting on an open fire right now

so anyway, is what you are saying caek that "happy holidays" is at base a response to the mixing of jews and christians? or that it's a judaic greeting?

they want thems jews to feel welcome in society. saying 'xmas' in public or business oriented places is alienating because christianity is the patroarchy of american society and so it's crushing the spirits of the young jewish children

I'm saying that it makes sense that the presence of a culturally and demographically significant group of people who celebrate a religious holiday other than Christmas at the same time of year would do the trick.

xp

"happy holidays" is obv. not a "judaic greeting"

hahaha

well no, "obviously" not, though

As "Happy Holiday", an English translation of the Hebrew Hag Sameach greeting on Passover, Sukkot, and Shavuot

anyway, that does clear up your post.

Of course there is another thing we're missing: ADVERTISING and MARKETING and the history thereof.

why do americans say merry christmas and brits say happy christmas? also why do americans say merry christmas but not merry holidays? WHY

DO they say "happy xmas"?! I didn't know. That's a little more easily explained though.

i think it dates back to the Ordinance of the Jewry of 1194

haw

It is not true that Britons do not say 'Merry Christmas'. We have always said it.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 21 December 2008 09:23 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

That's my experience too.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dickens would have written "Merry Christmas". Merry is such an old English word, yes?

Happy Holidays is kinda not very PC, coz you might say it to someone who has to work over Christmas.

Have an A+ winterval y'all

we do say 'merry christmas' wtf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Wish_You_a_Merry_Christmas

^^ have done since the 16th century apparently

I had a pretty much failed thread on Merry vs Happy: T/S Merry vs Happy FITE!

Everyone I know wishes each other a Merry Christmas or a Happy Christmas regardless of their religion. I assume every one of them is either a Christian or an atheist/agnostic who was nominally a Christian at one time and who still puts up a Christmas tree and buys presents for their kids. I think very few of the 0.5% of Jews in the UK live anywhere near me.

Not 0.5% of Jews, as that would be hardly any.

Fantastic thread all round.

I never had salt beef until I was 22.

the hindu and muslim populations in then uk are larger than the jewish. but tbh i wouldn't think twice about saying 'happy/merry christmas' to a non-christian of any faith, terrible as that may be.

no

huh thinking about it i went to a school with a q significant jewish quotient (lol north london) and the nearest we got to a catch-all phrase was 'happy christmas, hannukah, you know, whatever.' Or maybe just 'happy new year!'

Henry, in my experience Asians still are happily surprised if whiteys wish them a happy Eid/Diwali in turn.

Dom: that makes sense because salt beef/pastrami has only really been widely available in the UK for under 10 years; before that if you wanted some, it required (in London) a trip to Golders Green, Stamford Hill, West Hampstead, Gants Hill/Ilford or Brick Lane Beigel Bake. Beigels/bagels, salt beef, gefilte fish balls, kneidlach/matzo ball chicken soup, latkes and the like are all Ashkenazi Jewish food (I would be much harder pressed to name Sephardic Jewish cuisine specialities and no, falafel does not count).

Now most London supermarkets have a decent-sized Kosher section but I still find myself making a beeline for proper Jewish deli food when I come home and my very Gentile mum makes better matzo ball soup than any I have ever tried in London. This and her ability to drop guilt bombs has caused my best Jewish friend from school to have a running joke about her being Secretly Jewish.

In America, up 'til the late 60s, real estate covenants precluded selling houses to Jews in many areas (!) but my suburban hometown was not one of those places. Now 38 per cent of Minnesota's Jewish population - the frozen Chosen - live here. We have an eruv on the more observant side of town and the most academic public schools in the state as a result.

Onimo, if I remember correctly, you are in Glasgow, yeah? I'm sure the local equivalent to my hometown is Newton Mearns.

i just said 'have a good holiday' most of the time last year

Giffnock is the Jewish suburb of choice in Glasgow, I think.

http://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-UK/Community/north/index.htm

My hometown: population of around 200k, Jewish population of 332.

Ailsa, you're right, but aren't NM and Giffnock right next to each other? Strangely, all of my Glaswegian friends/colleagues from NM have been Jewish but the only people I've known from Giffnock are...Bis.

really shocked there's a synagogue in romford though the site doesn't say if all the windows are still intact

salt beef/pastrami has only really been widely available in the UK for under 10 years

suzy, I think, just possibly, you live in a slightly unusual bubble. Every time you feel like saying something like this, remind yourself that you think "you're welcome" is a recent arrival and then question your sample.

we always had salt beef when visiting non-jewish grandparents in broadstairs 20 years ago

Newton Mearns and Giffnock are near each other, though not next to each other. You could certainly buy kosher food in Glasgow more than 10 years ago.

Supermarkets have had kosher sections for as long as I can remember. I grew up with rakusen's matzo to eat my cheese on.

Ed, you've lived near Jewish neighbourhoods your whole life. The kosher sections are bigger now. I'm referring to being able to buy pastrami/salt beef at places like Pret a Manger.

Caek, I think you are the boy in the bubble, no offense. I've lived in Central and North London for 18 years and I remember when you had to go to Harrods or similar to buy a pint of Haagen Dasz or a bottle of cranberry juice, because they were not available anywhere else! As to 'you're welcome', you were also not there when I got the piss ripped out of me by TONS of English people for saying it when I first moved over. Mind, these are the same kind of English people who wince when Americans say 'can I get a' instead of 'may I have a' (I never did that, thank fuck for grammar).

Can I Get A is only acceptable if the next word is Witness.

i like 'can i get a'

only way to settle this is with nexis:

The Guardian (London)

July 14, 1990

Food & Drink: And so to bread - Eating in or taking out, the sandwich is big business. Mandy Rowbotham charts the rise and rise of the humble sarnie.

BYLINE: By MANDY ROWBOTHAM

LENGTH: 1088 words

HISTORY has it that the fourth Earl of Sandwich was too engrossed in gambling to bother to come to the dining table. Instead he ordered some cold beef, stuck it between two slices of bread and voila! - he had created the best thing before sliced bread.

Were he alive today, the Earl might not be quite so satisfied without a tad of mayonnaise to accompany his beef, a touch of Lollo Rosso lettuce perhaps or even a smidgen of advocado, such are the demands of a real sandwich in the 1990s.

A renaissance, rediscovery, a revolution - call it what you will - but the British sandwich has finally come out from under the shadow of it's American jaw-stretching counterpart.

In Britain, sandwiches now account for one quarter of the annual Pounds 4 billion take-away market, the largest single sector ahead of hamburgers and fish and chips. A recent Gallup poll revealed we consume 13 million sandwiches per week. Sandwich bars are sprouting everywhere - an estimated 3,500 across the United Kingdom and growing. So large is the market potential that it now warrants a British Sandwich Association, set up earlier this year by suppliers and producers aiming to introduce a standard code of practice for quality and hygiene.

BSA chairman, Oxford supplier Anthony Keeble, puts the sandwich explosion down to more mobility and a faster working pace. The corporate belly won't put up with curly-edged cheddar cheese sandwiches any longer; now the demand is formozzarella, dolcelate, brie and camembert.

Bacon and advocado is a firm favourite, as are combinations containing salmon, prawns, varieties of pastrami and salted beef, exotic chicken (tandoori and tikkas) and luxurious types of mayonnaise and lettuce.

Traders are not shy of admitting that responsibility for 're-inventing' British sandwich tastes lies with one organisation - Marks&Spencer, the country's leading sandwich retailer and prime catalyst to the industry.

Almost a culinary institution (and very possibly a British one in the fullness of time), the M&S sandwich celebrates its 10th anniversary this year. What began as a trial range of four lines in just three stores has mushroomed into 50 or so varieties and massive (but undisclosed) sales figures. Suffice to say their main sandwich store at Oxford Circus moves two million sarnies per year.

Chief sandwich selector Kay Coombes says their success emanates from sensible pricing and a clear policy of trial and error. There's no fancy market research, just a lot of tasting and monitering of eating trends at home and abroad. New lines are introduced or withdrawn almost every week. They cater for slimmers with a calorie - counted range, the vegetarian, the glutton (deep-filled variety) and the gourmet - a recent introduction has been a snazzily-presented breast of chicken with asparagus mousse and rare roast beef with raddichie and bernaise sauce, each topping the Pounds 2.50 mark.

Sandwich bars and sit-in coffee shops have capitalised on the M&S phenomenom. But many independent bars have gone one step further by developing office delivery services: phoning or faxing orders or even opening an office account, has become just another part of City life.

Among London's dense concentration of outlets, Birley's chain of five City-based shops has given the humble sandwich real panache. It's founder, old Etonian Robin Birley, maintains that buying a mere sandwich doesn't mean you can't do it under a gilt chandelier. There aren't too many surprises in the Birley's cold cupboard and it can be a little pricey - from Pounds 1.40 for egg mayonnaise to Pounds 2.95 for smoked salmon - but pin-striped personnel love it.

Entrepreneur Stuart Scher has followed in a similar, though less ornate, vein with his chain of three Choices shops in and around the City. The emphasis there is on average prices (for the City that is), cleanliness and bumper fillings (they claim to give 20 per cent more than the competition) which are fairly varied; Polynesian prawns and Chinese chicken among the more exotic.

As far as the small, independent shops go, finding The Best in central London is akin to a needle in a haystack; almost everyone professes to know 'a brilliant little sandwich shop I must take you to'.

A friend of mine who planned to open his own shop spent days trudging around the West End in search of inspiration. Among his favourites is Onions in Sicilian Avenue, where homesick Americans head for their 'pretty gross' (large) smoked salmon and cream cheese, nicoise salad and chicken salad with tarragon, all for around Pounds 1.50-Pounds 2. Another favourite, John Charlick Foods in Gray's Inn Road, specialises in home-made everything, down to honey-roasting its own ham, producing its own pate, mayonnaise and special salad. Their most popular sandwich (on a choice of four breads, including Italian Ciabatta) is tuna mousse and artichoke hearts - which gives a fair indication as to the rest of the gourmet menu.

My own favourite is a chintzy little oasis in a less-than-lovely corner of Tottenham - the Empire Tea Rooms - who's menu harps back to post-war era with tongue sandwiches, pink salmon, potted pastes of all kinds and chocolate spread.

Also worth noting is a new vegetarian delivery service, The Big Sandwich Company, which operates from Friends Foods, attached to the London Buddhist Centre in Bethnal Green. Their menu includes such weird and wonderful varieties as hummus salad; Swiss yeast pate salad; vegetarian salami and the piece de resistance, mock duck. Prices from Pounds 1.05-Pounds 1.85.

Of course, there's also plenty of sandwich movement north of the Watford Gap. The country's two leading sandwich retailers, M&S and Boots, report sales in provincial stores are on a par with the capital, while smaller outlets in major cities like Manchester, Leeds and Birmingham are well up on new fax and delivery developments.

In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Betty's Tea Rooms and Yate's Wine Lodges are hot on the sandwich as a crowd puller. Betty's, of which there are four, stick very much to the quality-bound 'gentle ladies' mould with poached salmon, prawn and advocado and roast corn-fed chicken - prices from Pounds 1.80 to Pounds 3.60 to eat in.

Compiling a definitive list countrywide is difficult, although The Caterer's northern office was happy to recommend a Manchester-based bar called French Window. Anyone who matches brie with gherkins (on homemade rye bread) deserves a mention.

As to 'you're welcome', you were also not there when I got the piss ripped out of me by TONS of English people for saying it when I first moved over.

Were you friends with A.J.P. Taylor and C.S. Lewis or something?

There is an undercurrent "of course, you could't get good coffee in London until New Labour" in your pronouncements about the cultural and culinary development of the U.K. I.e. in many cases they're simply not true (pastrami was in Sheffield in the 80s, "you're welcome", "merry christmas", hahahaha, I'm sure I've seen you say equally preposterous things on other threads). I would guess they're a product of either the unrepresentative group of people you roll with here or a pet thesis about the the post-war U.K. that leads you to confirmation bias.

p.s. i don't think it's noteworthy that in 1990 it was hard to find something that is made in another hemisphere and has to remain frozen while being transported, fwiw.

In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges
In Yorkshire, famed establishments like Yate's Wine Lodges

HAAHAHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHAHH

OMG am so seconding the HA. Writer is in Holborn in 1990 and does not find the original Pret around the corner from the Onion, pffft to the credibility.

Caek, are you from Ecclesfield or summat? Sheffield has some great food and most of it seems to be there or London Road but apart from the obligatory Human League interview I didn't spend any meaningful time there until 2002. I'm thinking a lot of this palate expansion we are arguing about has only happened in the past 20 years but that's not to say much of the food under discussion was flat-out unavailable. The choices we have now would BOGGLE 1990 me, who knew about the London shops in that article but thought them a bit meh. The Onion has not changed a bit.

I am certainly not NuLab, grrrrrrrr. Friends who questioned 'you're welcome' were normal middle-class mates from Bristol I met in 1987 (one of them ran a Smiths zine, he started the crit). In my own experience - being American, I'd be at the sharp end of this - Americanisms used to be *much* more frowned upon in written or spoken British English. My boyfriend in 1990 also corrected it but he may have just needed to feel superior. Nowadays people let it slide, more or less.

Also, of course ppl do say Merry Christmas in the UK but they DO NOT say Happy Christmas in the US, which might be a better way of looking at this.

"s'alright" is a nice informal substitute for "you're welcome".

Also, here in america, we are graced by our annual "War on Christmas" to add to the festivities

― Vault Boy Bobblehead - Drinking (kingfish), Sunday, 21 December 2008 03:03 (12 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

we have this, pretty sure it was invented by bored Brummie hacks in the 1990s

also, my father was killed in the war on Christmas

no point arguing w/ suzy since she has been to and/or had someone tell her something about both glasgow and sheffield

Do the British buy Ronaldino bottle openers?

I get the feeling that finding out about Britain through suzy is like finding out about the United States through someone who spent their childhood in Lincolnshire and their adult life never venturing north of 14th St.

caek, are you doubting that suzy, mistress expatriate supreme, has become ultimately authoritative on British culture?

caek is good people so the ad hominems are a bit ;_; to me whereas libcrypt is that guy nobody gives a shit about otherwise, who jumps on at the end of a row to find favour with the cool kids. FAIL.

Wait, ms. suzydrops is complaining about "currying favour with the cool kids"?

You read correctly, no-mates.

You are wrong and I'm speculating as to why. This is not ad hominem. The way I did it was gratuitously sarcastic and aggressive though, so sorry about that.

Suzenebb

that thought had crossed my mind

Merry holidays, you britishers you.

whereas libcrypt is that guy nobody gives a shit about otherwise, who jumps on at the end of a row to find favour with the cool kids.

;_; i like libcrypt

aw shucks.

Dom: ew ew ew ew ew, NO. Pass me the brain bleach.

Caek, no probs. If all I'm wrong about is sourcing pastrami in Sheffield 10-20 years ago, I can live with that and maybe we ought to let it rest.

As to happy versus merry, though, happy used to be a LOT more widespread before we all got so global. Perhaps my friend who went off on one about Americans saying 'you're welcome' and other Americanisms all those years ago was being the idiosyncratic one, but I have to confess I avoided 'you're welcome' after that for YEARS in favour of other equally appropriate replies.

I don't think that dom was naming a hypothetical potential result of some lovemaking between you and gabbs, suzy.

Nor do I, but thanks for the unwanted mental picture all the same, libbneb.

These days people (American people, that is) write letters to the editor and Dear Abby because someone told them "it's nothing" or "no problem" instead of "you're welcome".

Maybe these are the same people who write letters about how no one is allowed to say "Merry Christmas" anymore, I don't know.

https://www.facebook.com/jeff.ova

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3072390/Revealed-woman-inspired-Pulp-s-Common-People.html