Is it right for a parent to stay in a loveless sham marriage "for the sake of the kids"?

Yes, this relates to my own personal life, but I'm also interested in the moral dilemma so to speak. I didn't find out my parents had a sham marriage until a few months ago. I had assumed all along that it was "like the Brady Bunch", as our friends used to describe it. You first learn about what love is and means through the closest representatives of it, and so I learned that from my parents basically ice-cold relationship. My father would disappear for months (we were told he was working extra hard for us) doing god knows what, and kept some rather dark things hidden under the bed. He was also a drunken, coke-snorting philanderer and child-beater; orgies, tranny hookers, 42nd street grime to the max (he worked in Manhattan through the 70s-90s). I never knew about most of this stuff until a few months ago, but it explained the erratic, cold, and downright unfortunate behavior my brothers and I witnessed as kids.

My mother was permanently resigned from life. As a kid I asked her once, "what do really want out of life?" and she said, "the only thing I want is to die painlessly." That was a pretty grim assessment I think, especially telling that to your kid.

Results: For me, somedays are good, some days I want to throw myself in the East River out of a sense of basically apocalyptic emptiness. Which sucks because (in real life), I'm fairly decent looking, fun, etc. It's just these feelings cause you to totally shut yourself away.

My older brother graduated from a well-known private art institute and is doing OK, but he suffers from horrible anxiety and despite being a 9.5 on the attraction scale, he dates horribly abusive women.

My oldest brother is a hermit now. We see him once a year if we're lucky. He paid witness to the worst stuff, like my father cheating on my mother inside our house while she was at work.

This grim family situation was justified by my mother saying that it was better for children to be raised in a two-parent household as opposed to being a single mother. I completely disagree and think she was just justifying her own inaction and her fear of angering/killing her super-conservative father.

Yes, this is real, it's just been on my mind way more than usual today. I should probably see a therapist or something. You really have to be messed up if you make the choice to live in New York City... everyone I know here is screwed up.

http://i42.tinypic.com/316p9w7.jpg

look on the bright side burt you just found 11 tacos

Awesome

;)

9.5 on the attraction scale = 11 tacos, at least

burt i would agree that you should probably see a therapist about this tuff, especially if it's new information to you and you need help processing it.

if your dad was such an s.o.b. would divorce actually have been an option for your mom?

42nd street grime to the max

max to thread

uk grime faggot to thread

max to the grime blog xppppp

burt i have a ten point totally serious plan for you:

• see a therapist
• get on some lorazepam or something, even just for a couple months
• move the fuck out of new york
• take a 2-mile walk every day
• start meditating
• get a job that has nothing to do with writing or design or anything creative, especially if its not a "career" kind of job, bonus points if it keeps you outside
• learn to cook and start cooking all your meals. lots of veggies
• keep your house clean, including your stained underwear closet
• see a fucking therapist
• every time you freak out say to yourself "be the river not the rock"

srsly tho loveless marriage is why they have divorce in the 1st place so in that case get one fuck it get 11 one for each taco

when i get divorced im gonna pitch it to my kids as an adventure

i endorse maxs plan wholeheartedly except replace the drugs w/tacos - if u feel like u reeeeaaally need the drugs u can hav them - but watch out ok theyre serious stuff

gis for sham marriage (w/o quotes)yields some gems

im pretty siked for your divorce joe!!!

i will totally buy u air jordans and nintendo wii it will be so much funnn!!!

i know max has had good experiences with psychopharma but imo they should only be employed when ur balance is organically fucked up and can't be changed thru healthy lifestyle & socialization

xpost oh that kind of adventure? like buying stuff? i thought you meant like Indiana Jones and stuff :/

http://culinarychronicles.net/pictures/skills3/gorey%20ennui.jpg

an adventure to a new city and a smaller house

hey whatever kind of adventure u want man

Yeah, I'm not into mind bending drugs. Therapy, totally. I'm just now starting to get an OK life together, thanks in part to that whole Buddhism/exercise/eating well thing. But there's this darkness that's always in the background.

I was ostracized and tortured by my peers as a kid, so there's that, but it's a whole other issue. Yeah ... I'm a real piece of work. My close friends are surprised I've held it together so well, but that's probably thanks to a super solid and loving extended family that I spent lots of time with (thankfully).

real buddhists laugh in the face of darkness and give it a hug

I was originally going to go into comedy/entertainment, so I would've fit right in with those fuck ups.

i dont want to get into the drugs argument cause i can basically go either way on this--but if exercise, eating well, meditating etc. arent improving yr life--and if you really cant move out of the city and away from anxiety triggers like your job and social life--and theres still a "darkness"--thats what the drugs are for, you know, a last resort

but yeah joe & elmo are otm, they can really fuck you, and you will develop a dependency, even if youre careful, so, seriously, cant you just move out of new york?

my parents divorced when i was 12, and despite that being a horrible age to have your parents get a divorce, i'm so so so glad they didn't wait any longer.

that said, max otm. get yourself a therapist burt. i don't know what your health insurance status is, but there are plenty of places in manhattan that follow a sliding scale. exercise, eating right, fresh air are all also key. i favor marijuana over doctor-prescribed medication, but ymmv. also, winter is hell in NYC but in a few months if you're still here i feel confident your outlook will be at least a bit improved.

xposts: i bet a LOT of ilxors were shunned & abused by their peers as children--it's not an insurmountable obstacle.

maybe u should go into comedy do tons of coke and fuck transsexuals cause then at least youll have some good stories to tell in group

1 glass of red wine + 1 doob is about equal to 1 xanax in terms of helping me sleep @ night fwiw

you should also clean your fucking apartment

My mission now is to finally have a "normal" life. As in, a normal independent fulfilling adult life. It was easier in school because everything was basically laid out for you (friends, relationships, daily schedule, etc.). When you get older it has to come from you know ... healthy action.

My apartment is spotless now, btw. It only got messy during law school exam time.

hey burt heres another point for your plan--

• stop obsessing about "normality" it will only make you miserable

That's true. You just see how easy it seems for everyone ... to have love, and good friends, and dating. I've been single for 5 years now, after a dreadful 3.5 year relationship with someone even crazier than me (she's of course now way more successful).

I know we all have our secret pain, though. My old friend who I lived with during college was the epitome of the Abercrombie white guy... and one night we were hanging out talking, and he just broke down crying about his parents divorce when he was a kid. At the time I thought, "well, thank god I had such a normal family." haw haw.

1. definitely see a therapist. You are going to be okay.

2. as to the question you pose, it depends on the marriage and the kids and what you define as "loveless" and "sham". If the marriage is abusive, then I don't think you should keep it together for the kids. But if it's merely loveless or an arrangement of sorts...well, people do that all the time.

i have no memory of the time leading up to, during, and following my parents' divorce. it happened pretty early in my life, but still, i can only imagine the horror that would have transpired had my stubborn-ass folks tried to stick it out for the sake of my older bro & me.

my sister-in-law is doing this right now. it is a v. bad scene all around

u have to ask yrself what is it that i think im giving my kids here

a lifelong guilt complex and um intimacy issues if ur lucky? probably?

i thought air jordans & xbox??

i think the guilt complex comes with the xbox and the intimacy issues come with the barely-repressed contempt ur parents show to one another

o right duh me ;)

my parent's marriage was/is not a loveless sham but some serious shit went down when i was 22 and was just graduating from college--separation, deep depression on the part of one parent, ugly revelations, etc. three years on they're still not fully back together (i.e. they live together part time and separately part time).

it was definitely difficult but not in an obvious way--i was off trying to figure out a lot about my own post-college life, but at the same time my immediate family had always been exceptionally harmonious and i had always counted on that. at least one person has told me that my personality and outlook darkened somewhat during that time. i did go to one session of therapy but will probably do more someday. obv divorce is super-traumatizing for young kids but for older people it's just weird and fucked up on a whole other level.

Staying together for the kids only works if (a) both people do it and (b) both people are committed to finding ways to be happy while in the marriage, whether that's through gradual reconciliation, extramarital relationships, or whatever. Sticking together in a situation where there's abuse, mutual contempt, or untreated clinical depression involved = bad idea. Mutual contempt, especially, is deadly for kids.

You just see how easy it seems for everyone ... to have love, and good friends, and dating.

I don't know, man -- most people I know have trouble with these. People project the impression that it's easy because they keep the problems to themselves, or don't share their inner dialogues of doubt and frustration and isolation. Some of the relationships that seem most dysfunctional and improbable last the longest, and some of the ones that seem most idyllic from the outside, soon collapse spectacularly.

Staying together for the kids only works if (a) both people do it

Commit to it, that is. Otherwise it gets pretty creepy, with Mom arguing with the cardboard cutout of Dad: "If it weren't for the kids, I'd have left a long time ago! Why won't you say anything?! STANLEY!!"

* not trying to be a dick, but an internet forum might not be the best place to work your shit out

or, can we just cut right to it and say, this particular internet forum

fwiw there are some cultures where divorce still isn't really an option, especially initiated by the woman. so the question changes...

Yes

Therapy could very well help you, as well as anti-anxiety or depression medications. Your problem appears to be your attachment to your mother. Your father is clearly an ass and you probably already felt afraid of him, given what he's been up to. Your mother is either in denial or an enabler, and you won't feel better unless you deal with your conflict with her in some way.

If she won't seek counseling with you, you should separate yourself from her for a time so that you can find your own identity and strengths.

Your problem appears to be your attachment to your mother.

OTM. YOu feel attachment towards your mother Burt, you are clearly insane.

/sarcasm.

That's true about not sharing the inner dialogue --- there's no way in holy hell I'd lay any of this shit on my friends, because ... it takes a long time to get close enough to talk about this kinda stuff. Hence why I posted it here first (the first time I've really mentioned it to anyone). Therapy is obviously a little more useful, I just felt particularly bad today with it festering inside of me, and that = sleepless nights.

I'm close with both my parents -- they loved us independently, and I see them each on their own pretty regularly. The past has been forgiven (I mean c'mon, we're all independent adults now), but not really worked through on an individual level.

youll get through it homie

By the time my parents split I had kids of my own (was only 21 mind)
For me the danger here is that you (and the therapy/meds-espousers) seem to that a lurking darkness is abnormal - when actually I think you'd be pretty blinkered not to have some dark clouds hanging over you - it's life. get on with it, seriously.

well, there's "darkness" and there's "cheating with trannies in front of your kids"

yeah dude--bein sad is normal--"lurking darkness" is called, um, "depression," and not really necessary to livin your life

The lurking darkness feels more like a desire to fake my own death and move to a shit hole Eastern European city to live out my life as a poor weirdo writer.

burt why would you have to fake your own death to do that

"lurking darkness" is called, um, "depression," and not really necessary to livin your life

it'd be fucking boring without it.

fake death = I have so many student loan debts they will be hounding me to my grave

it'd be fucking boring without it.

― tomofthenest, Monday, January 26, 2009 6:53 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

no, itd be really fun and rad

my dad kind of got into the liking your depression thing; made me want to smack him in the mouth.

romanticizing your depression is great when youre 15 and need a way to make yourself feel unique but after college you just seem like a guy who wont go get his gimpy leg looked at cause you like the way you look with a cane

See the thing is, it's easy to just ignore depression in school because ... you're surrounded by your friends and lots of people your own age, your daily schedule is made out for you, and life just has so much structure and order to it. Adult life depression = never make new friends, never date, never get your work done on time, never go out and do fun things, never explore, etc. etc. It's stupid to live like this.

a few lurking dark clouds and the odd visit of the black dog doesn't equal depression ffs. even if you have some unresolved issues from your adolescence (and don't we all?) Actually its an insult to people who are properly/chemically depressed, as in not functioning, to even give this low-level ennui/angst that label. Sometimes things don't go well, sometimes stuff happens revealing that your assumptions have been wrong - and that stays with you. but that's the stuff of life, not a set of symptoms that need to be wrung out by psychiatry.

I'm not romanticising anything - I'm happy and sad, and to be anything other than both is just a denial of the world, ones own history and human nature. imo obviously.

Really? You're an adult. I've found through my own experience that adults are much less judgmental toward other adults than kids are to kids. Someone who was a "lemon" in grammar school might end up being the life of the party as an adult. But that's just my experience.

It sounds like you are too busy and probably exhausted.

See the thing is, it's easy to just ignore depression in school because ... you're surrounded by your friends and lots of people your own age, your daily schedule is made out for you, and life just has so much structure and order to it. Adult life depression = never make new friends, never date, never get your work done on time, never go out and do fun things, never explore, etc. etc. It's stupid to live like this.

― burt_stanton, Tuesday, 27 January 2009 00:05 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

This is similar to me sometimes, or maybe in the recentish past. The keys to getting around this kinda apathy for me is a) sleep well b) don't call it depression - that's a sure fire way to make you feel depressed, c) don't be scared to fuck up (nobody has any expectations except you) d) get on with it.

and if all goes to pot e) there's always another day.

romanticizing your depression is great when youre 15 and need a way to make yourself feel unique but after college you just seem like a guy who wont go get his gimpy leg looked at cause you like the way you look with a cane

this sounds like something someone might say who was trying way too hard to be all upbeat and happy all the time. maybe i myself am a depressed wreck, but to me there's just something wrong with people who aren't at least a little bit depressed about the way the world is right now.

to be more specific about "the way the world is right now", i suppose what i mean is living in post industrial revolution America. unless you inherited a fortune, you're pretty much a cog in a machine (to coin an over-used cliché).

sorry i guess this is a total derail. i don't think it helps people dealing with grief, sadness, or depression, to be like, "hey, just work out more, become a buddhist, and eat healthier, and you can be super happy! just like me!" just makes you seem like an asshole.

yeah sorry you are saying fucking bullshit.

living in post-industrial revolution America sure is a tough one.

I feel for you, buddy.

living in post-industrial revolution America sure is a tough one.

unless u inherited a fortune, obv

OK, the 'fortune' thing was dumb, money doesn't help. Depression sucks. Nobody who is actually depressed uses it as a fashion accessory, and it's not something that just goes away by eating more oranges and thinking happier thoughts. I'm responding to an attitude some ppl seem to have about it, not an individual post on here.

Nobody who is actually depressed uses it as a fashion accessory

wow you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about do you

rockapads i am guess you aren't going by DSMV classification of depression huh

Of absolutely course there are kinds of depression that can be helped by eating well and exercising. The worst kinds, no, but the most common kinds, a little. It doesn't make it go away, but living a healthy life helps you deal better with everything going on around you. As in, stress doesn't get to you as much, etc. etc.

The advice to see a therapist is probably quite good advice in general. A good one can sift through your story with you and give you worthwhile assistance and direction. It sounds as if you could use this.

If you do seek a therapist, remember that all therapists are not created equal. If you go to one and they seem like a hack repeating platitudes, don't go back because they are not right for you, but do keep looking for one which you make a good connection with and you feel you can trust. Then keep going.

Good luck.

what's with twunts attacking people who say they aren't v happy wiv way things are?

Burt, have you tried writing? Keeping a journal? I am sorry about your father but it sounds like you've at least had an interesting life. Writing - creatively or otherwise - could be very therapeutic.

If individual therapy sounds like it would just keep you in isolation, have you thought of group therapy? I've tried group therapy and I've made a number of friends that way.

have you tried blogging?

Oh, Burt. I feel sorry about giving you a hard time now. I'm not being nasty when I say - it seemed obvious through some of your more attention seeking threads that there were "issues" of some kind, but it's quite heart-rending to see someone actually drop the trolly misanthrope persona and be so emotionally honest. I think the fact that you're talking about this - even on an interweb messageboard - shows some kind of improvement or self recognisation.

I would echo the people who say to get professional help. There's some problems you can get through with exercise and philosophy and your friends, and there are others that require guidance. That doesn't necessarily mean going on drugs if that doesn't work for you But it means going through this stuff in a way that is directed and helpful, and focuses on moving forward and out of this dark place, rather than going over it over and over again.

I come from a similar background - parents stayed together for the kids. Obviously nothing as full-on as your parents, but they stayed together when they were patently obviously desperately unhappy. It did have a similar effect in terms of lack of ability to share emotional intimacy. And also, the nagging worry that nothing ever really is as it seems. My dad waited until we were adults, and then walked out - which leads to deep insecurity of "was *my* entire life a lie?" and I simply cannot trust men.

It seems a bit weird to me that you seem to put so much of the blame on your mother, for staying in the situation. Do you not blame your father at all? Why is it left to your mother to do the justifying? Do you think your father's behaviour was justified? But then again, the blame game is really purposeless. Part of the growing up process is learning to accept your parents' faults, as human beings.

rockapads - ignore these fools. I totally hear what you are saying.

ask burt stanton

This thread has been locked by an administrator

:-(

yeah, I hear ya Masonic Boom.

I'll save this for Dr. Morgenstern. You'll see a reformed burt_stanton yet, for those who with the lord are redeemed (Matthew 3:593:12).

(I bet people from the South would read this and say, "what the fuck you pussy")

this makes me feel secure in my future decision to get knocked up, be forced into a loveless marriage, and then eventually divorce

Yes, this relates to my own personal life

hmmm u dont say

cankles, after opening up so much to you i feel naked in your presence...

call all destroyer,

Please relax, you seem kind of angry. I wasn't trying to troll here. I was at work, didn't have time to write a book, and made some clumsy attempts to express my frustration with people who respond to the original poster's "darkness" by telling him to get a job working outside, and go meet people. I had this same bullshit advice when I was going through some heavy depression ten years ago, and it doesn't help at all.

All I was trying to say is that people who romanticize or "learn to like" their depression, are probably mistaking 'depression' for something else which I would just refer to as simple 'negativity'... cynicism or pessimism. I personally feel like general negativity can exist in someone who isn't necessarily suffering from acute depression, but is probably related. I am a pretty negative mofo, and I prefer the company of others who are the same. I think I'm a mostly pretty happy guy over all, but I struggle with depression at times.

wow you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about do you

I guess not. Who does? I have not read the DSM-V, but I've had a lot of personal experience with what I believe to be depression.

It's not a state of mind that results in any strong emotions of sadness, or anything else really. It's to feel utterly blank and flat; without any kind of normal emotional response to things. It's to perceive the world through dulled senses. No enjoyment of food, music, social contact, no sex drive. No notice or enjoyment of anything beautiful - sun beams shining through leaves on a summer day seems as ugly and dull as the reeking overflowing dumpster on the next block. There's not a thing romantic or fashionable about feeling like that, and you wouldn't care enough about what anyone thinks, to try to convey it to anybody.

The only thing I could recommend to anyone trying to dig out of a mental rut like that is to busy yourself. Don't go home to that dark apartment by yourself every night - get involved in something. Work more, do some charity work, take some night time college classes, get obsessed with fitness or some hobby that allows you to mentally exhaust yourself. This might be bad advice - maybe this is how people become workaholics - but it seems to work for me.

Well, keep keeping us amused, Burt. I do actually think you're quite funny, and humour is a good way of dealing with many situations that are painful.

My dad waited until we were adults, and then walked out

Ditto. Although, it was more "fell in love(!) with his secretary" rather than "the union was always rotten" so I'm not comparing or advising.

http://www.gencofilms.com/Site_2/Daytrippers_files/daytrippers%20still.jpg

Tracer Hand, I'm worried that you're staying in a loveless sham marriage for the sake of The Kid.

I refuse to get divorced until my son has seen his first movie by Charlie Chaplin, or "Charlot" as the French say.

sorry i guess this is a total derail. i don't think it helps people dealing with grief, sadness, or depression, to be like, "hey, just work out more, become a buddhist, and eat healthier, and you can be super happy! just like me!" just makes you seem like an asshole.

― fwiw (rockapads), Monday, January 26, 2009 7:52 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hey bud no one said this

At least from my perspective, it just seems like the problem is more one of implication than anything else. Divorce vs staying together doesn't matter as much as whether the kid(s) feel somehow responsible or guilty. My parents used to tell me they were staying together because of me. I think it sounded like a nice thing to them, like they were suffering so I didn't have to deal with divorce but there is a whole 'nother way to read those words!