Michael Moore's alternative history of the US

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Documentary maker Michael Moore has premiered his new film at Cannes. It's called Bowling for Columbine and, although ostensibly about guns in the US, is, according to Moore, about 'our culture of fear and how that fear leads us to acts of violence, domestically and internationally'.

Here's his alternative history of the US:

"The very first sentence you learn about US history as a child is 'The Pilgrims came to America because they were afraid of being persecuted'. Then what happened? They encounter the Indians and are afraid of them, so they kill them; then they start becoming afraid of each other and start seeing witches and burn them; then they win the revolution, but they're afraid the British are going to come back. So someone writes the second amendment that says 'Let's keep our guns because the Brits could come back'.

"The genesis of fear in America came from having a slave population that in just 86 years from the time of the revolutionary war in 1775 to the civil war in 1861 grew from 700,000 to 4 million. In parts of the rural south, blacks outnumbered whites by a three to one margin and there were a lot of of slave rebellions. So in 1836 Samuel Colt invented the six-shooter..."

Momus, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if you are going to quote michael moore you are bound to lose any credibility you may still possess. the man is a joke, a stupid white man indeed.

keith, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Expand, please. I know nothing about MM, but you have a strong opinion and I'd like to know why.

Momus, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mmm, he can have his fun and I think that when he's on he says some good things, but why read that when you can read Howard Zinn's alternative history.

Jordan, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I love these alternative histories. There's a great one in Kierkegaard's Either/Or, a history of the world in terms of boredom. It goes something like:

'The gods were bored, so they created man. Man was bored so he turned to woman and multiplied. Incredibly long stretches of time passed in which nothing happened. That got so boring that people built cities, and the cities went to war with each other; that at least passed the time. Rome, bored with its own domain, set out on a mission of conquest and subjugated the world. But that was still too boring for the average Roman, who cared only, said Juvenal, for panis et circenses, bread and circuses.'

Momus, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Kierkegaard is my favorite philosopher ever.

Ryan, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

On topic: I think most people's problem with Moore is not just his facile liberalism, but his reliance on rants and liberal prejudices as oppossed to facts.

Ryan, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Michael Moore is an SUV-driving, McDonalds-feasting, hypocritical twat. But he did help to get Ben Hamper's very great book "Rivethead" published, so, fair play to him.

clotion, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Moore has been a member of the NRA all his life, which makes his anti-gun film a very interesting pirhouette. I've never liked this accusation of people as 'hypocrites' when in fact they are pointing in several different directions at the same time, like a Cubist painting. Having a lot of different positions is not a weakness, it's a sign that someone is alive, and thinking dialectically.

Momus, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

...or inconsistently. I agree with most of that, but Moore has never struck me as a man of subtle contradictions. And he has never embraced any kind of complexity in his political beliefs.

Ryan, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's not a case of pointing in several directions at the same time. He preaches one thing, and practices another, and he's too dense to see that that's what he's doing. He's an arsehole, plain and simple.

clotion, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

He preaches one thing, and practices another

But he's a preacher by profession, as a film-maker and journalist. His private practice isn't of much concern to anyone. So far on this thread I've read a lot of stuff about how he drives an SUV, eats at McDonald's, etc. I haven't heard much about how important it is that someone made a film about America's gun problem.

Momus, Thursday, 16 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Call him what you want, but he got Alan Keyes in a mosh pit.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/keyes1big.jpg

I respect him for that alone.

bryan, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Momus I think the best criticism of him is that he's more interested in keeping your attention than being intellectually subtle or complex. Thus it's possible to be generally in agreement with a lot of the things he says but still feel like he's making the arguments stupidly. When you disagree with him it becomes a lot clearer how he frequently takes positions simply to fit his basic comic schtick.

nabisco%%, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

And lo, as I type, an example is provided: getting Alan Keyes to crowd-surf is an entertainment that doesn't really compare to serious high-level analysis of a political issue. (What irritates people about Moore is not strictly that he entertains, but that he too often pretends to be doing something more serious.)

nabisco%%, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Why is it important Momus? How is it different from the traditional hand-wringing over guns and violence? His culture of fear would make more sense if he didn't try to place it in a historical context. It's like some half-assed "Phenomenology of Spirit" with fear as the operating prinicple.

Ryan, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

He's like Al Franken. His comedy infuriates assorted bigots and right-wing idiots. He knows what he's doing. I seriously doubt he thinks he's Walter Lippmann.

bryan, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Another point: while saying that paranoia and fear lead to guns is a fair statement, often I think that fear is given as an exuse to own a gun because its more acceptable then saying "I like to blow shit up" or "I like the sense of power and control it gives me." And if you have ever fired a gun, you know that these feelings are quite powerful, if a bit shameful.

Ryan, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You may be right Bryan, and angering right wing idiots is a worthy cause, but not at the expense of stoking already lazy liberal egos and prejudices.

Ryan, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My problem with Moore is not just that he's smug and self- congratulatory and plays fast and loose with facts, but that he appears to be incapable of engaging on any level other than mockery and contempt with anything that doesn't fit with his preconceptions, and is therefore incapable of _negotiation_, and of swaying anyone's opinions. He's sometimes pretty funny, but he's basically the Rush Limbaugh of the left.

Douglas, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not sure if this thread was to be about alternative histories, Moore's alternative history, or Moore. Sadly, it has become the last of these.

Moore is tricky as a topic for me, as I tend to mostly focus on the message first and the messenger second. The fact that a "preacher" is often in violation of his creed might be somewhat overlooked by me if I feel his sermon is very good, and I feel he sincerely believes in it. This is often nearly impossible to ascertain, of course. If there is evidence the "preacher" is cynically turning out his flock, he deserves whatever misery he gets in my book. Any less evidence of bad intention gets a bit of a shrug as I turn back to the meaning of the sermons. Clotion says Moore is too much of dumbass to see what a hypocrite he is. I think by definition you _have_ to know what you're doing in order to be a hypocrite (one who feigns or dissembles). Does it make a difference if the proper accusation is that Moore is only a self-deluded fool? I think foolish Moore makes many good points in many of his pieces. However, it only makes it worse for Moore that he is a "gotcha" professional. Since his ascendence with Roger and Me, his MO seems to stalk people and ambush them physically, rhetorically, ideologically. It was inevitable that people would want to do PRECISELY THAT with him. Wasn't there a short about a guy stalking Moore to get an interview?

I really liked you pointing out that people tend to point in multiple directions as an aspect of their continuing development without it necessarily meaning hypocrisy. Most people understand this intuitively but only half-way, and so only demand purity of their opposition (or opposition's candidate).

Hunter, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I've seen Keyes speak twice, and if you told me he'd crowd surf, I'd never have believed you. If you want someone that presents as serious "nabisco", he's the one. Yet many people think he's totally bats and don't take him seriously either. Moore=jokey=not taken seriously Keyes=serious as a heart attack=not taken seriously either. How do you win?

Hunter, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ryan, good point. Lazy liberal egos and prejudices do seem to be of the "Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher" or talking points variety these days. Americans are very ignorant and/or apathetic, and Michael Moore plays fast and loose with history, which is a negative thing in itself. But I think his revisionism is less dangerous than Bill O'Reilly's propaganda. Then again, I'd venture to guess that the books that O'Reilly's target audience reads are mostly along the lines of Tom Clancy, Nora Roberts, those kooky Left Behind books or Bill O'Reilly! If they read in the first place. Those non-readers who "learn" history from cable TV are usually the ones who are the laziest and most prejudiced.

bryan, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd agree with what most ppl have said about MM; Stupid White Men was a good read, but was more about MM than the state of America.

And yet...

He might be the Rush Limbaugh of the left. And all power to his elbow. Sure, we'd love to have intellectually subtle critiques that give due reference of the complexity of most 'problems' in modern society. But here's the rub. Something aren't subtle. The labour flight to sweatshop economies isn't subtle. You don't need subtlety to make the obvious point that corporate power is A Bad Thing.

The left need communicators to sell it's version of events. To paraphrase James Callaghan, the right has it's simple response to events in place whilst the left are still trying agree the terms in which they conduct the debate. Communicators with a tendency to become demogogues should be let enywhere near the formal reins opf power - but they are needed to shift the political centre of gravity; to point out that there other explanations for why lives don't work out the way they should have that don't rely on blaming immigrants or Godlessness.

Nathan Barley, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what "nathan" said (uh i just don't know you're real name = scare quotes).

Alan T, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Name's Dave in Real Life (TM), whatever that is.

Nathan Barley, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Michael Moore = American Mark Thomas, no?

exactly the same criticisms seem to be levelled, except does Moore give secretaries a hard time too? rather trhan the people who should get it who he just can't get through to?

chris, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Can't say about Thomas; stopped watching him after his show on Cabinet Minister property deals which was lazy trash journajism.

Didn't watch Moore's show either; just making the point that the left needs to have people who can get a message across. That's why I like Brian Reade in The Mirror. I don't agree with everything he writes, and I think he lets himself down. He scores a 90% agreement rating with me though, and that's more than the government does. He's a leftwing Richard Littlejohn, and about time too. I'd rather have someone who targetting the Monarchy and Tories as opposed to banging on about asylum seeking and the creeping homosexualisation of this green and pleasant land.

Nathan Barley, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Moore is culturally working-class and his style reflects that His audience knows that he's not trying to be a pundit or public intellectual. He's an entertainer and provocateur. If you pick up the cues, you'll see he's a hell of a lot smarter than he initially lets on. But he's doing it for 'his people' first.

Kerry, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My favorite 'stunt' pulled by Moore was when he had African-American Wallet Exchange Day. People swapped their old wallets (the ones that resembled handguns) for new ones coated in bright orange paint.

Andy K, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't that what Moore (and Thomas) are all about - amusing stunts and small victories? So for instance in the new movie I understand Moore succeeds in getting WalMart (or at least one branch of it) to stop selling gun ammunition.

Jeff W, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

isn't a small victory better than no victory at all?

michael, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't we need both poetic or humorous, easily digestible illustrations of key points (ie the wallet exchange day), and subtle analyses? My problem with Moore is that he is so hateful and bating. I watched his show as he hesitantly stumbled through an 'improvisation' on just how idiotic his opponent was. This isn't working class - it's simply divisive. He is able to see the American tendency towards zenophobia and fear because he suffers from it himself.

charles, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

xenophobia, I couldn't resist

charles, Friday, 17 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Michael Moore is a working class thing, like enjoying darts. "Stupid White Men" and "Downsize This" (which was subtitled "Random Threats From An Unarmed American", which makes the NRA thing slightly confusing) were both challenging reads. Moore likes to irritate, he likes to be the fly in the ointment (the gay choir serenading that right wing senator being a prime A example). To compare him to Mark THomas is an insult: Thomas is just lazy Freshers Week socialism, with poor humour. Michael Moore is funny, and, when you strip away the chicken costumes and the black-only taxi services, he makes a similar point to the one everyone on this forum would praise Chris Morris for: god, the people who control us are morons.

Dom Passantino, Sunday, 19 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.