The World Cup Thread (Do not read if you hate football obviously)

Argentina or Spain.

Italy, Argentina or France to win. Owen Hargreaves and David Beckham to be England's stars. Vincenzo Montella to get the Golden Boot.

Stevo sticks his neck out with eternal underachievers Spain!

Perennial underachievers ronan but if they can finally get their act together they've the makings of a World Cup winning side. For pure quality and technique Spanish football has overtaken Serie A over the past few seasons. Their top clubs have enjoyed success in Europe, and in Diego Tristan and Raul Gonzalez they have two of the best forwards in the world.

They will miss their keeper Canizares. He's just torn a cartilage in his right foot when a bottle of cologne fell on him whilst he was in his bathroom!

I expect them to cruise comfortably past Slovenia, Paraguay and South Africa in the first round.

Here is aWorld Cup Spread Sheat for fellow football anoraks wishing to track the results.

Italy could win, but no one will support them (except Italians) if they get into the final. They always just go into their cynical soak up the pressure routine once they get a goal. France will do well, but Barthez and Desially (sp?) could be there weak links this time around. Brazil? I'm not sure about, they only just managed to qualify...is Ronaldo any good these days? What's up with Rivaldo? Korea will do better than Japan. Argentina? Do they rely on Batisuta? He's had a terrible season. England...have three hard games, and then they might have to play France, best player will be Michael Owen.

If England don't win it. I'd like Spain to win.

State of pitches (Teddy was going on about the grass being too long), heat and refereeing could be deciding factors this time around.

Argentina, con la ayuda del mano de dios, is gonna piss all over your little seeesters.

The Hand of God is currently going through rehab again; I think you have to place your trust in the Lion's Mane and the Bald Bastard. ;-)

you think the hand of god belongs to one communist-loving cocaine sniffing fat man alone? No sir, you are mistaken - we have a nation full of them ready to whip your malvinas-stealing buttocks.

Los argentinos cabrones van a tomar en el culo. La taza sera brasileña o portuguesa. Geoff, estas marcado tambien, maldito argentino

Do Aregentina rely on Batistuta? He's not even likely to make the team. Still, they have several players who've been in poor form lately; France are sticking with a good few who look well past their best; Spain's best goalkeeper can't even hold an aftershave bottle; Italy will be too negative; England only have a few good players; Brazil have been hopeless for the last few years. The conclusion is clear: nobody is going to win the World Cup. More seriously, it looks kind of open to me - a bunch of strong sides, but none look tremendous or dominant. A few key players hitting their best form at the right moments is perhaps what will make the difference. My tip: Crespo winning the Golden Boot, Veron being a major star and Argentina just beating Italy in the final.

one communist-loving cocaine sniffing fat man alone?

Mike Tyson's not *that* fat.

I approve of the Geoff/Chupa war beginning here. Time for all niceties to be lost as we understand how Brazil and Argentina really regard each other -- the football enemy!

Ronan: great though Motson and Lawro both are (none enjoy them more than I do), I found the footy-songs segment today very poor.

Argentina to win, OK. Italy are said to be a good bet. England will not make it out of their group.

I think we should have an UNDER-21 thread!! England might do well in that.

I was going to start another thread to discuss this, but then thought it silly: WORLD CUP VIEWING HABITS. What are folks going to do? There's never been a competition held so far east before, so the kick- off times for fans in Europe and the Americas are a little bit, well, challenging. Pre-work, mid-morning or lunchtime for Europeans and somewhere between cocoa-with-Letterman and the middle of the bleddy night on the other side of Atlantic.

The idea of booze-accompanied 07:30 KOs turns my stomach. Anyone planning sleep-over parties?

Oh, and as has already been hinted at, England really need to win their group to stand any chance of progressing in the knockout phase (unless France and Brazil go a bit weird, and they could), and that seems fantastical. I too would love to see a Spanish victory.

I suppose i should declare it here - England will qualify top of their group, beating nigeria and argentina and drawing (as ever) with sweden. And I'm not even supporting them.

I'm glad to hear some people rate Italy, but I'm not overly hopeful. Having said that, 1982 was the greatest moment of my life, so...

It's easy to say who won't win, for instance I don't think Brazil will do well at all, I do think England will draw with the Argies and win their other two matches and go through top (this may be wishful thinking) but..... Argentina to win, any side who can afford to drop the little rabbit (Saviola) has to have a fuck-load of quality.

Viewing: the last few World Cups and European Championships, I've watched every game live (other than half of the simultaneous pairs at the end of each group, where I've had to settle for highlights). That's not going to be possible this time. I can be a bit flexible with work hours, so I'll watch the biggies live, including all England's games. I may be moving house in late June, so will book lots of leave once I have a moving date, and hope to be able to watch games in the morning then work at packing/unpacking the rest of the day, but it might not work out that way. It's bad for us in Europe, but even worse for those in the Americas, which includes some of the strongest and most passionate football nations.

saw Denmark v Cameroon last night, Cameroon looked very good yet still managed to lose, hmmmm. And they were wearing their cool sleeveless shirts (too, in the pouring rain, poor wee lambs.

also saw a re-run of the at awful game where we lost to Italy 2-0, we definitely don't want below par performances like that next month.

brazil no tiene un culo para metertela boca, hija brasile~na - nosotros vamos a patear la concha de tu hermana entre los goles, y la copa sera nuestra!

Haha, every time I say Spain, well I'm not falling for it this time. They will inevitably just be rubbish again. I think I might stick with France, although a third major tournament in a row would be a remarkable achievement.

The section with the fake Elton John was absolutely dreadful and not even mildly humorous, but that moment where Motson was prepared to go into serious analysis about the football songs was really telling. I can imagine him at home with his family, "I'd have to say that STEAK was the best meal we've had this week, your opinion son?".

a word about kits, other than England, Cameroon and Denmark, do all the others all have the generic Nike and Adidas kits? If so, how depressing as the big two's are all the same except different colours, lame.

Denmark though, nice Hummel kit, like it a lot, Cameroon, sleeveless (except in the world cup they'll have see-through sleeves so that the FIFA and World Cup logos can be attached) and damn good. England's kit = rub, that red stripe on there just looks wrong.

Geoff es tan burro que no sabe escribir brasileño cierto, tenemos la selecion completa, los atacantes brasileños son mejores que todos los argentinos juntos. ronaldinho(rei de italia) e ronaldinho gaucho(rei de francia) destroiram todos. lo ataque argentino: HA! cannigia tiene 100 anos, se es para hablar de vejotes, llamaramos pelé. burgos es el clone de bruce dickinson. Argentina so gana se usan las manos o se dan diñero a los peruanos

Ned, we are enemys at everything. The only time we stick together is against the americans

D'oh! Well, I don't blame you. And may I just say:

burgos es el clone de bruce dickinson.

Quote of the year.

Italy to win

Trezeguet to get the golden boot

Pablo Aimar to be the superstar of the tournament

all FACT!

and I was talking ass about the kits, there's a few other manufacturers in there, but it will be won by Nike or Adidas - fact.

I am in a complicated betting arrangment and need to nominate the top scoring Brazilian. Bookies seem to have Ronaldo on shortest odds, but has he even been playing over the last four years? Is Rivaldo a safer bet?

Rivaldo is also a bit unfit at the moment - go for Ronaldinho.

My God - I've just been reminded of the existence of Juninho. That little fella hasn't entered my thoughts for at least two years. Juninho - ha!

I think you're right, Jonnie, but why the hell have William Hill still got Ronaldo at 8/1, Rivaldo at 21/1 and Ronaldinho way down at 41/1 for the golden boot? I am confused.

Cos they're famous and people will just put them down if they don't know who to pick, then if by a miracle and they come good the bookies don't take a hit.

Jonnie is OTM, that said, I think they won't do that well anyway.

But please explain complicated betting thing, I am intrigued.

That is of course if Jardel doesn't end up going, he's ace and if they don't take him they will rue the day. Out and out strikers are exactly what Brazil are lacking, they've got loads of attacking midfielders but look lightweight in the striker department, erm, Ron.

Do you think there's a chance that the top Russian goalscorer will outscore the top Brazilian? If so, who? [this is not a random question - it is related to my complicated financial instrument]

I doubt it, but then again there always seems to be a hat trick scorer in the first round from one of the 'lesser' teams who leads the golden boot until about the quarter finals.So then you have to judge which teams are going to make the quarter finals etc.. It makes it all the more convoluted.By the way, Ronaldinho scored twice against Catalunia in Brazil's 3-1 friendly win the other day.

I'd like to see an AFRICAN victory.

England will not get past stage one.

Pinefox was OTM abt Liverpool, so I worry for Sven's men.

N. if one of them drinks that mystical "root drink" Oleg Salenko style then anything could happen.

ronaldo es come los spice girls con sida y la ultima jugador buena para brasil era pele, y el unico gol que el ha sacado recien fue de Xuxa

ooh look, BBC Fantasy Football League thingy.

I haf even set up an ILE Cup for us :) After you've signed up, click on friends league, then enter 621515 in the PIN number box and then "join this league". it's not exactly rocket science, just pick the top 7 scorers, but should add a little healthy rivalry (geoff and chupas could just about pick exclusively argentinian/brazilian teams should they choose).

I would join up, but they want my details and the filthy brasilians will get thier scummy its on them and firebomb my parents house.

Fratelli d'Italia....

Italy to beat Argentina in the final. Golden boot to be won by Henry. Your world cup heroes to be Emmaneul Olisabde and Hidetoshi Nakata. The Yanks to make complete arses of themselves again. Oh yes.

The Cameroon strip is awful. I hate sleeveless tops. I just thought I'd say.

I fancy Italy's changes. Abundance of strikers (if Trappatoni doesn't play both Montella and Vieri he must be on crack), top defence, two great keepers and with fuckwits like Albertini injured, Totti and Tomassi should form an excellent midfield. All that and a playing style built for winning tournaments.

Probably France will win it, their traditional striker problem seems to be a thing of the past.

Argentina have great material but one suspects too much of a good thing could become a problem.

Spain. Through intense meditation I have created an absence of expectation (I won't be fooled again). Quarter-finals tops, lost on penalties of course.

I'm refusing to put forward Spain as candidates too, just cos I've been embarrassed by doing that too many times before. I'd like to see Raul have the tournament he deserves though, even though he's a meringue ;-)

England v South Korea in a couple of hours, obviously I'll be watching and will report back for those of you unfortunate enough to be at work.

Perennial dark horses.Yay - I love world cup cliches. I got Cameroon in the sweep stake at work.Sleeveless tops are great.Ally you are just plain wrong!

I have vivid, absolutely vivid visions of Cameroon giving our boys an absolute spanking, 3-1 or 4-1. I can imagine George Hamiltons voice saying "oh..........disaster for Ireland" already. Having said that I'm the eternal pessimist according to mates, who claim I said Croatia would pummel us at the beginning of that qualifying campaign a few years back.

Did anyone watch the South Korea game? Were England any good?

well, watched it, there were adverts every ten minutes which I thionk helps vindicate my decision to come home in June (and yes, it will be the same during the tournament apparently).

anyway.....

Not convincing at all, England had control in the first half, and I was particularly impressed by Danny Mills, who seemed to keep a clear head and made some very intelligent runs. As did Owen as usual. Murphy showed some good touches too I thought.

Second half though we weren't good at all (yes we brought on loads of subs) Joe Cole seemed intent on showboating his way throuyghh the game. and the equaliser was abysmal defending, Monkey head and the most arrogant man in the premiership (T Sheringham esq.) should get an absolute rollicking for their defending at the corner.

Cheer up chros chris! Don't come home too soon etc.

Summary from my friend:

Hargreves was excellent, Mills and Vassel played well - Joey Cole did some tricks. Sinclair and Sheringham were appalling and should be sent home immediately.

Oh N. I am quite chirpy don't you worry, especially as I'm finally bandageless! anyway, your mate was right (apart from the spelling of Hargreaves, but then who am I to comment??) Sinclair wasn't *that* bad, but he didn't look quite right. Sheringham though - woeful.

I suppose Heskey did ok too. But I didn't think Hargreaves was that good.

Leave Teddy alone!

I only saw the second half and England were shite. Wes Brown and Danny Mills were comedy atrocious.

It's less than 48 hours until all the world wuvs DaMarcus Beasley.

Am I a lunatic/and or exaggerating the ability of (my) 'home' teams or could all three CONCACAF teams advance?

....< href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport3/worldcup2002/hi/photo_galleries/new sid_1989000/1989629.stm">2nd time lucky

Anyone know how to link directly to a pic on a site which doesn't have an obvious img src tag?

....3rd time lucky

Anyone know how to link directly to a pic on a site which doesn't have an obvious img src tag?

Vieri was my #1 choice, so his two goals were worth 14 points to me! And I had Raul third, Ronaldo fourth and Mboma sixth. And Portugal haven't played yet. I'm happy with this aspect of the tournament so far. The BBC pundits shows Ray Stubbs at the top with 14 - Lawro bottom with 4!

I loved some of Brazil's play today, but thought Turkey were terrific - one of the best performances of the competition so far, and very unlucky, as that was yards short of being a penalty. Rivaldo should be immediately suspended for at least one game, but the sending off should stand, as it was for a justified second yellow. I expect Brazil will cope with China and Costa Rica, even if Rivaldo is suspended.

The current big World Cup question is: I've not missed a game yet, but can I get myself out of bed tomorrow for China vs Costa Rica? Not a lot of my favourite players, and I don't think either are serious contenders.

Thank ya there, Billy. I now cannot doubt the continuing influence of the Gorillaz, among other things. ;-)

Scott, Martin and I discussed this on another thread, and I argued that the US team, while no threat to win or even get to, say, the quarterfinals, was the best ever (or at least since 1930), should perform respectably, etc. I'm retracting all that. The speed of play has been very fast for long stretches of time, embarrassing quicker and more able defenders than the US has. Without an adequate back line, Damarcus and Mathis and O'Brien and Wolff and Donovan aren't going to be seeing enough of the ball to make stuff happen. I hope I'm wrong. If I'm not, you can put the fault squarely on the shoulders of Mr. Bruce Arena of Fairfax, Va., who has stuck by his old, slow DC back line of Agoos, Llamosa, Pope, and Sanneh (okay, Pope is okay) to crippling effect. The extent to which he has played favorites with his old club would embarrass Terry Venables. I'm thinking 0 wins, 0 draws, and 3 solid losses is a distinct possibility.

If Arena were to wake up and play Mastroeni and Hejduk, I'd retract my retraction.

Cripes, Martin has this ILE league sewn up and no mistake. I'm suffering from my smart-arse idea that the opening phase would see some leading strikers injured/rested and Luque and Luizao would be banging them in. Could've sworn I hadn't deselected Raul though. Banking on Rui Costa frying the US on Wednesday morning.

Early days (doors, whatever). I think a fresh thread for the second chunk of group matches is a fine idea. Wednesday lunchtime (BST)?

Benjamin: You’re right about Arena’s pets – in particular, bringing a less-than 100% Llamosa is baffling. The man was slow enough as it was before being banged up. (And a red card waiting to happen with his ill-timed tackles to compensate for that lack of speed.) And the U.S. defenders with any pace have such slow football minds – Sanneh and Regis are calamitous under pressure. It’s a shame that Bocanegra (granted he was oft-injured) and Mastroeni didn’t gain Arena’s faith earlier to win the spots in central defense. Instead, virtually every deserved young player who has worked his way into the lineup has earned his spot after subbing for an injured vet rather than supplanting a more ineffective one (Mathis, Wolff, Mastroeni, Donovan). Beasley is the only exception. Presence of Cobi Jones or Joe-Max Moore on the field = total U.S. embarrassment (and the perfect illustration of Arena's player selection 'mistakes'). Chippy ‘fighting spirit’ types, bless ‘em, for trying so hard, just aren’t going to do the job.

I'm pretending Cobi Jones isn't on the team. English folks asked about soccer always feel obliged to mention him and 'the red haired git, with the beard,' and I claim, falsely, that both are in the A- League.

I had a dream that our back line was O'Brien/Pope/Mastroeni/Hejduk the other night, but Jeff Agoos (top minger in the world cup, as well as being a crap defender) is written into the starting lineup in indelible ink. Why is it that the good US players spend most of their lives sliding in and out of the MRI chamber, and the worst players never get hurt?

I've been winding up the US fans (it's nice to have a subject area where they're a minor, developing nation), but they might just pick up a point or two. Not against Portugal, oh dearie me no, but South Korea and Poland aren't terribly strong, so they have chances there.

As for the ILE fantasy league, I have to say that the lads have done fantastic for me so far, we had a great pre-season so I knew we was on for a flyer, but it's early doors and you have to remember that an ILE World Cup fantasy league is a marathon not a sprint and I just hope we'll be there or thereabouts at the end of June.

Forgot to say: You don't win anything for being top on June 3rd.

it's nice to have a subject area where they're a minor, developing nation

Which is pretty much the only reason I can feel comfortable supporting a US national team. This team being mediocre and largely under the radar = refreshing lack of jingoism.

Come on Japan! First match with an atmosphere (unsurprisingly).

I don't personally think it's been a great world cup so far, far too many mismatches. It might have been a good idea to have some of the potentially more competitive matches up first, to capture the imagination. The early morning probably doesn't help. It will get better I'm sure.

Second half of Japan v Belgium was marvellous stuff. Nothing much wrong with Inamoto's disallowed effort.

Big Ron keenly identified the differences between the rather ragged back-lines of each team - the Belgians had 'just lost it', whereas the Japanese were, obviously, 'defensively naive'. Aargh. (Trevor Steven was at it about China too).

Poland are looking really awful. The defenders seem to actively dislike their midfielders, preferring to boot the ball out for touch rather than win it and move upfield. Fair enough, as the midfielders would rather play harmless balls over the top then move into the ample space Korea give them. And Olisadebe, while showing flashes of skill when he gets, is surely getting frustrated and tired as his good off-the-ball runs get wasted. Do people really rate convincing qualifying wins over has-been Norway and never-was Ukraine as justification for thinking Poland are really a solid team? Or is this a case of 'they gave England fits some years back, they must be good'?

Oh well, if my fears are borne out, the US should provide them with enough points to justify a world cup finals appearance that looks to be utterly disappointing.

Goals don't come any softer than the one Korea scored in the first half.

Ron Atkinson and Clive Tyldesley are single handedly trying to ruin the world cup, I have now realised the best method is pictures on TV, audio from 5 live. Plus big Ron is a big fibber, *as I said in the first half the Belgians are too old*, no you bloody didn't you're just making it as you go along.

I thought South Korea played excellently, shackled Olisadebe completely, and as said above totally cut him off from the rest of the team. Poland did well enough in qualifiers to earn themselves their fancied outsider tag, however, if they don't buck their ideas up even USA may take a point off of them.

Of course I managed to miss the second half of the Japan game , just seeing Inamoto's ridiculously ruled out winner.

I think Spur's should offer to buy Inamoto.

I want Japan to win the world cup as their players have clearly made the most effort with their hair styles.

However, I've only see one or two mullets so far...one Argentina and one Costa Rica player. I wish Tony Polster was still playing.

Gosh golly, I picked my players entirely abitrarily and I'm doing WELL.

The Japanese DO have the best hair. Thank God that goal was chopped off as I put a bet on the result of all the matches today, got them right and won a tenner. Ha.

I wish Tony Polster was still playing.

heheh or Chris "King of Crap Haircuts" Waddle.

If we're talking haircuts, I would like to remind older English fans of Paul Mariner. Sorry.

Paul Walsh (Luton, Spurs, Man City, Liverpool and others) had a mullet way into the mid 90s. He had no excuse as other footballers had moved on from this phase, but no only did he have a long mullet, it had highlights too. The man was a disgrace.

TONY

FUCKING

WOODCOCK

Not to mention Ian Bishop!!

40 minutes gone, and it's Portugal 0 USA 3!!!!! It can't last, can it?

At the very moment I posted that, Figo scored. Bollocks.

It's still totally mental tho. When I first read the scoreline I assumed they'd got it backwards.

I figure Benjamin is still asleep and somehow the BBC are broadcasting his dream.

Have they mentioned North Korea on ESPN yet, I wonder?

stranger things have happened, as Costa Rican player Wrigth, sorry, Wright knows only too well.

haha! I knew Portugal would have a stinker of a world cup!

that was an answer to Ricky T, btw. Incidentally, wot is the deal with all these Costa Rican players with English names?

Costa Rica annexed the Isle Of Sheppy two years ago. There is also a largish American community who often get stuck there because whilst they think they know the way toi San Jose (Fa la la la la la lala laa) its not the San Jose they wanted.

Oh and Wrigth's name was spelt correctly - his parents mis-spelled it on his birthing certification.

Portugal were way too cocky in the first half, and the US chased down very well. Missed the first goal, the second was a freak and the third was in the words of Hansen, appalling defending.

I have to say though that the US team has two of the most punchable characters in football, Brian Mcbride is a cocky little shit who dives all over the place, sems like a typical jock (US useage) whereas Bruce Arena is my most hated man of the tournament so far, pompous wanker, I mean it's bad enough when players mime for yellow cards at the ref but when a manager does it, it just makes them look like a cunt. Plus his goal celebration??? grrrrr must stop, about to blow a fuse. Good luck to Ronan's boys in a minute though.

I couldn't sleep, I was so anxious, and I was hoping the stories about Reyna and Mathis (our two best players) being too nicked up to play were typical Bruce Arena head games.... there was a huge amount of luck, but also the sense to run our players into the corners and fight their way in.

In my dreams, we play flash football and score gorgeous goals like Brazil 1970. But I can live with this, I think.

3-2! Well done, USA.

End of phase one. Time for new thread? I insist you call it "The World Cup Thread and other football throwdowns Pt. 2 - The Saga continues" ;-)

Ben, congratu-fucking-lations mate :-) I really feel your enthusiasm somehow made the difference!

There's a guy called Bruce Arena? Oh my God! That's the coolest name ever!

You haven't sen him Jel!!

forgot to say in my rage up there, yes, Well done USA possibly the shock of the round.

Shit I have other theories about the world cup so far but I have to go upstairs and watch those lovely boys in green.

ps Rui Costa = Rick Witter

Chris, I've hated Bruce Arena for many years. Despite points for being a Brooklynite, he's a whiny, lisping, arrogant shit, who sticks by his UVA/DC United boys, despite shocking incompetence (cf. Agoos). But I can despise the man and still adore him right now. I'm sure I'll feel differently once Agoos takes the golden boot on own goals alone.

Neat victory (and what a brilliant own goal, it was if he knew it was going to be a sure goal so he decided "aahh what the fuck I'll do it meself, with some grace...WHAAAMM" ;). Portugal are beyond help though, bunch of egomaniacs. Besides if you insist on playing with Fernando "Butcher" Couto and without Nuno Gomes for most of the game you're asking for trouble.

Willy Brandt - Karl Kraus - Falco [etc etc] - your boys took a hell of a last-minute point!

Mike is picking up on bad clichés, eg 'defensive naiveté'. I think it could be argued that in the past, some developing-world nations *have* been defensively naive (or substitute other phrase if preferred - unprepared, ineffective or whatever). But I think the boy Jones is OTM for 2002, where *none of them do* look defensively naive, even the ones labelled defensively naive!

eg (as Mike says) China - this is a way of not recognizing the achievement of Costa Rica? Two good finishes!

Portugal: if they were from Asia they'd be called def. naive; as it is they're called complacent - which I suppose is almost the logical opposite (you're so accomplished you're bad).

So whatever about the past, I think the dodgy double-standard is well in play now, and distorting the pundits' view of what's happening.

Trevor Steven *not* good so far, I'm afraid. (Put it down to jet-lag, succeeding the disgraced McGrath? The Trevor Sinclair of expert summarizers...)

BTW / fantastic US win - that tickled me. Terrible 2nd-half og, though.

I must admit I felt very embarressed yesterday when Ron Atkinson constantly used the word naive.

I thought the Germans were defensively naive against Ireland. Countries that only had a professional league since the 50s will always struggle at this level. After all, their heavy industry and such like was only put in place after 1945, and sadly, these teams are vulnerable to the long ball up to the big man up front.

Well done USA. Portugal amazingly bad defensively, managing to look like they'd never played together before; indeed, never played FOOTBALL before. Also well done to the Irish. Some entertaining games in the last few days, although I haven't managed to see all of them.