Fred Goodwin

Of course if he keeps the money he's not doing anything illegal. It was written into his contract and he's perfectly entitled to draw it. And it was careless bordering on the idiotic for the Government not to notice it (or to pretend not to notice it) when they did their censuring.

It's all a question of morals.

And it's why bodies like the NHS and the BBC need to remain publicly funded. The private sector puts profit before responsibility, devil take the hindmost ahead of the greater good, and it always will.

wait, you mean to say we shouldn't take your endless calls for the bbc to be privatised seriously?

Privatise the Royal Mail NOW!

http://www.keithbond.co.uk/coin-flip.jpg

I wasn't a huge fan of the man's steez/attitude before but the Metro's bin-raking activities have made me 19 per cent more sympathetic to Mr G.

i know what you're saying but if id basically fucked up at my job & still got £600k a year pension, people can rifle through my bins as much as they wanted

I'm not sure why privatisation is an issue here seeing as Royal Bank of Scotland was a private enterprise in the first place (and still is technically).

Brown is playing this appallingly. Given that over the past week Fred Goodwin has become the personification of a new high watermark in corporate uselessness, it should technically make electoral sense for the PM to go to battle with him very publicly. But it doesn't, it just makes them look short-sighted, clueless and idiotic.

It's hard to see how Brown or anyone could break an existing contract without the dude's consent.

id be interested to read (though it probably exists and im being lazy) legal opinion on whether goodwin would have a case if his pension was withheld. imo the rbs he signed his contract with doesn't exist, it went under.

still don't get the coin toss thing

hi dere tuomas

imo the rbs he signed his contract with doesn't exist, it went under.

Except that it, er, does and hasn't?

you missed the part where i said imo

It totally makes Brown and Darling look like idiots because they giveth but cannot legally taketh away. Wasn't the opening volley that Goodwin should return the pension as a goodwill gesture?

I don't see where in law he would have to return it. He's become vilified by the public (with 17 million reasons not to give a fuck, he doesn't care about that) but threat of blackballing and peer pressure from people who matter to him could do the trick.

The only way to break a contract like this is to figure out a way that he's in breach, and then be snide.

Of course, if Mr Darling embarks on his Mugabe-esque cunning plan of printing more money to cure the disease, I expect Fred will be lucky to get change out of £650,000 for a cup of coffee in a couple of years' time...

Why does Brown promise to do things that are impossible if you give it a moment's thought? How can that be good politics?

This is the first big episode in what will surely be a long running series of illustrations as to why governments taking on all the risk and gaining virtually none of the control is a really stupid idea, right?

Wasn't the opening volley that Goodwin should return the pension as a goodwill gesture?

yeah. this was a rookie move. he wouldn't have to return it because it isn't paid upfront. rbs, which is 70% public-owned, shouldn't pay him any more money. they should just get it over with and nationalize, because that's basically what it is... maybe it's like alastair campbell and fiona miller, people who are in denial about being married.

Isn't it more like 95% public-owned? But regardless, peoples' contracts still have to be honored.

But regardless, peoples' contracts still have to be honored.

they have to litigate, it doesn't just happen. if you are owed money by a firm that goes under, ur fuct, the contract is void. rbs would have gone bust but for the government.

As the Americans have been cracking wise since the bailout: socialize risk, privatize profits!

Tracer is right in absolute terms (and is LATE with my email), but what is Goodwin going to do, report the government to Experian if they fuck him?

they have to litigate, it doesn't just happen. if you are owed money by a firm that goes under, ur fuct, the contract is void.
It depends. You're fucked if you've not got some security over the debt you have. So yeah, the little guy, typically, is fucked. Banks and certain other specific creditors - such as pensions (IIRC) - are given a much earlier go at what little is left in the way of assets. That said, if RBS goes under it'll take forty billion years to unpick the mess. Upshot: there are two ways that FG can lose his pension entitlement (a) voluntarily or (b) if the govt. let RBS fail, which would be a hell of an option just to piss off one cack-handed accountant.

id be interested to read (though it probably exists and im being lazy) legal opinion on whether goodwin would have a case if his pension was withheld. imo the rbs he signed his contract with doesn't exist, it went under.

― special guest stars mark bronson, Friday, 27 February 2009 13:27 (43 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

not quite what you were asking for, but via bloomberg:

“The government can essentially do what it wants,” said Simon Gleeson, a regulatory partner at Clifford Chance LLP. “It could pass the ‘Sir Fred Goodwin Pension Reclamation Act,’ but that could be overkill. Up until now they have said they will honor contractual obligations to employees.”

bring on the overkill

Yeah considering the government managed to get away with illegally invading a sovereign nation, I doubt that witholding a few million quid from the most hated non-paedophile in the UK is going to ruffle many feathers.

afaik according to the contract the pension was discretionary not compulsory, which wasn't communicated to the government at the time, or they didn't ask. So there is a legal window for withholding.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/robertpeston/2009/02/the_goodwin_pension_questions.html

"However, in the presence of a senior lawyer, Lord Myners was informed by Sir Tom that Sir Fred would walk away with a pension pot valued at £16m - and that this was a contractual obligation.

Lord Myners felt he couldn't challenge an arrangement that therefore seemed obligatory - though presumably he now wishes that he had done.

The question that now arises is what did Sir Tom mean by "a contractual obligation" - since it is now clear that the board had discretion not to give Sir Fred £650,000 per annum aged just 50."

what should happen in the future: introduce a new law any private company that becomes 51% owned by the state due to severe financial difficulties will have the pensions for their senior executives CAPPED at a certain level and that all previous arrangements will be negated.

you can't change the past, but you can shape the future.

Harriet Harman says Goodwin should not count on keeping his £650,000 pension

"The prime minister has said that it is not acceptable and therefore it will not be accepted," she added. "And it might be enforceable in a court of law, this contract, but it is not enforceable in the court of public opinion and that is where the government steps in."

Not sure I'd be particularly swayed by 'the court of public opinion' if I were Sir Fred. What kind of thing is this for a minister to be saying anyway?

You're right to flag this up, IK, and it chills me to the marrow.

"the court of public opinion" - regardless of what you might think of Fred, this is a white flag, a green light to return to the days of lynch mobs, public executions, witch burnings and ducking stools, a COWARDLY and SPINELESS admission that yes, Wade and Dacre run this country and pass our laws and that everyone and everything buckles to the tabloids. Just because your government was incompetent enough not to read the small print before signing things.

Things are actually coming perilously close to the point where I'm considering thinking the unthinkable and voting tactically for Cameron next time round to get this mob out. Either that or they'll have to be removed by force, if they want to take the "court of public opinion" to its logical conclusion.

the penny drops

Harriet Hardman

Bit rich bearing in mind the current travails of the government to be banging on about the 'court of public opinion'. Seems like another 'British jobs for British workers' mindless soundbite which will come back to haunt them.

Great, my hometown has now given the world Andrew Neil AND Fred Goodwin.

... in fact, I imagine they went to the same school

Not to mention Tom Conti

(and Gerry Rafferty, David Tennant, Paolo Nutini, Archie Gemmill, Kenneth McKellar, Kelly Marie and um Momus...)

And Fulton Mackay! Hard to excuse Paolo Nutini however...

and my dad!

Son! Get in touch, yir maw's missin' ye!

And Fulton Mackay! Hard to excuse Paolo Nutini however...

― Queueing For Latchstrings (Tom D.), Monday, 2 March 2009 11:45 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

and my dad!

― zero learnt from nero (Neil S), Monday, 2 March 2009 11:45 (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Oh come come, I'm sure the old boy's not that bad

The Gerry Rafferty For PM campaign starts (and probably ends) here!

"Right, ma policies ur gaunnae be...em...eh, fuck it, ah'm aff tae get pissed..."

xpost he's alright!

"Right, ma policies ur gaunnae be...em...eh, fuck it, ah'm aff tae get pissed...Tuscany to write songs for my forthcoming album..."

*changed on advice from ILX lawyers*

voting tactically for Cameron next time round to get this mob out.

Don't make excuses, if you want Cameron as the next PM, just say so.

if only there were other options...

Governments "step in" and change laws all the time. Isn't that what they're elected to do? And we only bitch about it when they do things we don't like? And vote them out the next time. And get another government that does the same thing. And so it goes.

I don't particularly want Child Catcher Cameron as PM. Nor do I expect he'll be that different in terms of kowtowing to the meejah.

But when politicians in power start bleating on about "the court of public opinion" then it's time to get rid of them.

I want governments to do what they're elected to do, not what Paul Dacre or Rebekah Wade or Max Clifford decrees they should do.

hardly think vengeance for political embarrassment is a great reason to 'step in and change laws' ned

Great, my hometown has now given the world Andrew Neil AND Fred Goodwin. ... in fact, I imagine they went to the same school

yes same school and same university sed a neil on either the daily politics or this week last week

Bank Bosses Are Criminals - C/D?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/city-news/2009/03/26/anarchists-warn-this-is-just-the-start-as-we-track-down-fred-the-shred-115875-21227971

Not exactly Al-Qaeda, is it?

DUH TEH BAD MEN ARE GREEDY DUHHH

Starts off with ringing the doorbell and running away and ends up in dirty bombs, you mark my words

#pray4fred