Another clusterfuck about race and class: Black aspiration and white reaction

Okay, working a pet peeve here. I've often been faced with white people who critique certain segments of black culture for being too aspirational. This really gets under my skin. Now, I'm not talking about racist-ass crackers, because I don't give a damn about their opinions anyway. I'm talking smart, liberal folks who I otherwise respect.

First of all, I live in a nation where there is a great discrepency between black and white incomes and even a massive wealth gap even between black and white people of similar incomes, where children of black middle class families are much more likely to be downwardly mobile than children of similar white families, and where a black person is 6 times as likely to be incarcerated as a white person. The playing field for your average white person and your average black person aren't even close to level.

I think it's completely natural for those who have not benefited from the trappings of privilege to aspire to those things, even if they sometimes go about them in the wrong ways. I also think it's awfully fucking rich for those who have benefitted from white privilege to lambast those who have not for aspiring to the same things they enjoy. This leads into all sorts of entanglements with regards to creation of wealth versus enjoying the use of what wealth you do have. The thing there is that a white person, because of directly or indirectly inherited wealth, is much more likely to be able to do BOTH, whereas their black counterpart is more often stuck with a choice of one or the other if they even have the option of doing either. I feel that often when white people criticize black culture for materialism, it's because of black people who choose the latter option, using their wealth for enjoyment rather than creation of more wealth, but that critisism not only often comes from a position of not being forced to make that decision, but also from a lack any conception of the wealth gap that forces that type of decision.

America fucks with my brain so hard sometimes.

You respect me?

P.S. My all-time favorite single comes form this album:

http://soulfunkjazz.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/house-of-music.jpg

Haha, KJB, of course I respect you, although tbh I might not have felt that way at all points in time. I didn't want to make this thread about you, and certainly not an attack on you, though, which is why I didn't mention you or our earlier conversation, brief as it may have been. I really would have liked to have been able to carry out this conversation earlier, but in your absense I created an ILX thread. I'd rather dig into the larger concepts outlined above, anyway.

I have no idea what that album is, but it looks awesome.

*absence

If nothing else, I had a lot more time to think about what I wanted to say.

Also here are the lyrics:

All night, these games (people?) playin'
Playin ball off the wall with my head
The man promised me a raise (I said who?)
Who's gonna raise me when I'm dead?

Oh, I'm so tired of punching that clock every day (Working every day)
Always skatin' on thin ice
Lord knows we could use a holiday, baby
Just the two of us would be so nice

Gimme the bon
Gimme the bon, bon
Gimme the bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Gimme the good life (Give it to me)

Gimme the bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Oh, gimme the good life (Oho, baby)

(Heyeyeyey)

We were born and raised in New York City
Fell in love in Central Park
I really love New York City
Still number one in my heart

Sometimes I feel kind of stranger in here (Dododododo)
Used and abused and forgot
Sometimes I feel like no one would really give a damn (Dododododo)
If I dropped dead right here on the spot

Gimme the bon (Hey, (vivant?), ce soir)
Gimme the bon, bon (Ce soir)
Gimme the bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie (Ce soir)
Gimme the good life

Gimme the bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Oh, gimme the good life (Oho, oho)

Do it
Dodobedodum
Dodobedodum

Let's go out on the town tonight, pretty baby
Dance 'til the sun comes up
We'll have Dom Perignon 'til our minds are blown
And put our last dime in that blind man's cup

Gimme the bon
Gimme the bon, bon
Gimme the bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Gimme the good life (Gimme the good life)

Gimme the bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Gimme the good life (Baby, oho, baby)
Bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie (Yeah, say it again)
Gimme the good life (Good life, good life)

Bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Gimme the good life (I said give it to me, give it to me, yeah)
Bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Gimme the good life (Good life, yeaheah)

Bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie
Gimme the good life (Yeah, give it to me)
Bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon, bon vie

T.S. Monk: "Bon Bon Vie" (Mirage 1980)

Here's a great video:

Oh, I heard this once. And was surprised when it wasn't "Welcome to the Terrordome".

whereas their black counterpart is more often stuck with a choice of one or the other if they even have the option of doing either

would you say this only really affects those who grew up poor?

I also think it's awfully fucking rich for those who have benefitted from white privilege to lambast those who have not for aspiring to the same things they enjoy.

Agree wholeheartedly, though I have to say, it took a long long time for me to get this - when rap was new (lol old dude alert), I could not for the life of me understand why there were all these lyrics about having money or nice clothes (nb I don't come from money, in my house we ate gov't cheese in the late 70s & I got clowned for my clothes by every kid in school) - but now I think of it in the terms you outline: as aspirational, as signifying arrival/survival/etc. - matters about which it's pretty cold-blooded for one person to look down on another. I do think this is a class issue as much as a race one, that the two come bundled together, and that the word "tacky" is generally loaded with ugly class connotation - i.e., that some of the same yucky white dismissal of black codes/symbols for status & success can be seen e.g. in southern California where I grew up, where the children of Mexican immigrants would dress flashy and drive bright tricked-out cars and get described in snooty terms for it - "gaudy"/"tacky" etc, and that that's more white guardianship of the whole concept of status. Which is grotesque. But I think this is some high-level stuff for white people to learn; it's one of the last of privilege that they/we will cling to & defend long after they/we've been "enlightened," this ownership of the tropes of status & taste. Though yesterday's "tacky" is tomorrow's white culture's "hey, we've decided this is actually cool," though I'm not sure whether that counts as victory or facepalm.

It seems to me that you can critique materialism as apart of a broader economic critique, without blaming black aspiration for participating in it. If you believe that Capitalism creates a context where aspiration becomes the natural response to class discrepancy and that wealth acquisition is reinforced by the hegemony (sorry for throwing around kinda uninterrogated Marxist lingo but...) then you can say that black aspiration is an unfortunate byproduct of the system without condemning them. I'm not sure if this is the white reaction you're responding too, but I can certainly see how economic education judging people in lower-class environments could be grating. Esp since white privilege has become so tied up in kinda graduate school Marxism, etc.

But at some point, isn't it fair to point out that lusting for status symbols is a consequence of Capitalist perversion? Tho, admittedly, someone should always make sure to acknowledge that it's probably nothing when compared to something like the Madoff situation.

(Rev, if you're complaining about just white people saying "lol, black people love expensive sneakers," then yeah. I mean, that's just gross. And whenever a "liberal white person" has said something like that to me, and I've tried to make explicit the circumstances of those status symbols, they always seem fairly chastened. I think it's just unconscious Racism. If it's apart of a broader economic critique tho -- I dunno. Yes, it's easy to critique materialism when you are yourself materially comfortable. But it doesn't fully invalidate the critique either.)

Yeah, to me it's just the same as all the stuff bundled up in disdain for "nouveau riche" style and displays of wealth.

BUT, if you personally do see things as tacky and/or spiritually bankrupt, but don't make a fuss of others adopting them, on the grounds that your own ancestors went through that stage to give you the advantages you have now, then you do wind up in a kind of loftily patronising position. How big of you to be so tolerant of their less sophisticated ways, kind of thing.

And who's to say that they're not the ones ahead of the curve, anyway - if the economy continues to tank maybe all the old liberal middle classes will start getting rather more money-focused?

well maybe there will be less flaunting from everyone

But at some point, isn't it fair to point out that lusting for status symbols is a consequence of Capitalist perversion?

maybe, but in my opinion the "owners" of the symbols (the members of the class who set the terms) needs to be pretty conscious of how such a critique is part of a rigged game

... idk, are there terms that are being set, in the way you mean? if people are ignoring those terms, then what?

Right. So maybe some sensitivity can be put into place. Like I said, it's odious to be privileged and then critiquing the economy. (Which is why the Communist trust-fund baby stereotype is so repulsive.) But there are still legitimate critiques to be made, regardless of the person who is making them. Which is to say; If you're able to separate the person from the argument, you might find that the argument has validity. XP

I think, yes, terms like "tacky"/"classy" etc. get set by the ruling class, to just go ahead and bust out the unpackable term there - and generally, you can claim you're ignoring these terms, but they impact you all the same - in getting jobs, in getting respect, in getting treated as an equal. One can almost start viewing the ascendancy of some "poor" signifiers to status items as victories in the class struggle, if one's so inclined, and the idea's got an appeal, but one person's victory is another person's co-optation.

And I wouldn't be me if I didn't point out that things that gender is also part of this discussion - that gender/race/class are the triumvirate of white male privilege & its adverse effects on a just society

On a personal and aesthetic level I've never liked blingflingers (and I'll fully own up to preferring hip-hop that doesn't come off like some account manager's wet dream of product placement, which is my real problem with it). A blingflinger is just as likely to be my working-class sister with her $10k in passé Vuitton and Coach she couldn't really afford as it is to be some celebutard with a stylist or some gearhead with gold rims or any sort of ephemeral, impermanent, insecure display you could care to mention.

Tackiness and classiness are - in their application by people of privilege - all about the less-privileged group being in some way loud to the ears or eyes of those who would deny them an equality of opportunity. It's kind of like those press reports where they make sure to add the price of some miscreant's home in the story for that extra dose of How Very Dare You.

Rev, I'd like you to give some examples of the kind of critique of black aspiration you're talking about.

see graf 1 above your post

honestly i don't think the terms "tacky" and "classy" are set and deployed by the ruling class -- at least, not on the level of rulership your statement may imply. i think it's an aspect of aspirational upper-class white culure (maybe we can say, established merchant class?) that concern themselves with these matters of taste, because their cultural privilege is based on this intangible idea of 'taste.'

to be truly honest, i don't think that the TRUE ruling classes concern themselves with how flashy the newly-rich are dressing these days, as their standing ing the world simply isn't threatened by it in any real or imagined way

my impression from 4,000 miles away is that there is more regional autonomy in the US than here. don't get the impression of a homogenous ruling class like that. not to deny the existence of white privilege, just asking really, if these terms JD is talking about really obtain.

see graf 1 above your post

Well, I asked Rev because I thought at first he meant something broader than just expensive status symbols, although I'm realizing now that I kind of skimmed the opening post. I'd still be curious to know some examples of actual conversations he's had (not because I don't believe them or anything, just so I know what the meat of the critique is).

Reverend, great post. I had my eyes opened to this when teaching a few years back and we were talking about the aesthetics of contemporary evangelical Christianity. My class was like 48/50 white, 1 black, 1 Asian (lol Kansas), and the majority of the class was attacking what they took to be the materialism of the church today. The one black student was a very serious Christian, and reacted strongly against this attack, pointing out how aspiration is part of how she understands honoring God. So this led to a wider ranging, terrific, discussion of black and white attitudes to aspiration, at first in a religious context but then getting wider.

Yah, that brings to mind all those prosperity theology people like Joel Osteen and Creflo Dollar, just to name one white example and one black one.

"When Schooly D came out with that album and he would say, 'What time is it? It's Gucci Time.", I understood that -- it's rising above oppression -- a Negro being able to buy a Gucci watch -- GREAT! -- I'm a Negro, too. I felt the same excitement when I could buy a Gucci watch and spend a lot of money, like an outlaw."

Did Dee Dee get it right?

I'm mostly with the Reverend on this, insofar as ... I think the material aspirations sometimes really do take forms that are unproductive and harmful, yeah, but there is this (perfectly natural) middle-class habit of just writing off those aspirations as tacky or gauche ... which can be irritating, because those aspirations are the most natural thing in the world.

(It gets especially complicated because the mainstream middle-class attitude toward the working class -- and black working-class people in particular -- is that they should have these aspirations, only in some modest Puritan work-hard-and-climb-slowly style that's slightly unreasonable; and the thing is that a lot of skeptical eyes get turned toward gross materialism, but it's not as if a ton of praise gets directed at the really healthy side of it, the working-class people who are often way more deeply committed to this kind of success than lots of children of the middle class, who can be a bit ambivalent about it, at times. I get the feeling a lot of middle-class people would kill for their children to have the desire and work ethic that a lot of working-class people put into acquiring the trappings of the middle class.)

another boojie black guy here, rev OTM

aspirational is a weird word to use. I don't think it's wrong to look down on materialism as long as you do it across the spectrum - which I think most educated white liberals probably do! I think that the sorta straw-manny white liberal who's looking down on the 'aspirational' blacks is also looking down on white investment bankers culture etc. (who isn't these days?)

I don't see that much of a difference between a kid in the ghetto buying jordans he can't afford and a white middle class family buying a house they can't afford. the american culture of overconsumption as it is right now is A Bad Thing.

I get the feeling a lot of middle-class people would kill for their children to have the desire and work ethic that a lot of working-class people put into acquiring the trappings of the middle class.

Because...there's nothing "honorable" and laudable about thinking that where you are now is good enough? If you don't feel driven to get ahead, somehow, you must be lazy? It hasn't been the case for the last decade or two that children can depend on earning more and living better than their parents did, but we totally can't adjust to that, can we.

My father immigrated to the US from Latin America in the 1960s without any money, and he's since been totally wealth-aspirational, cars, tvs, etc. We ended up middle class working class (middle working class?) and I share his aspirational fire, but since I was young I've been more interested in aspiring to knowledge (and let's be honest, status) more than just wealth. But aspirational all the same. I often have to remind myself that middle class people who don't particularly aspire for knowledge and who take their status and (relative) wealth for granted aren't bad, that they're just lucky they can kinda coast. But there is a fire in immigrant communities and, I take it, other minority cultures, that's hard to explain and justify to those outside those communities.

they should have these aspirations, only in some modest Puritan work-hard-and-climb-slowly style that's slightly unreasonable ... a lot of middle-class people would kill for their children to have the desire and work ethic that a lot of working-class people put into acquiring the trappings of the middle class

That's insightful. It's the pleasure in seeing one's values followed, ruined by the realisation that they're only being taken halfway - basically the frustration of seeing someone miss the point, or 'You're doing it wrong!' Like seeing your parents dancing badly to your music at a wedding, or (for parents) something like hearing your kids take an interest in politics but only spewing angry sixth-form bollocks. It makes sense that that should be what provokes a vitriolic/embarrassed/mocking reaction - no-one criticises their parents for enjoying a glass of wine and reading a nice book

xpost to Laurel: I don't even know that I'm just talking about material aspiration, just the energy and the conviction behind it! Which is something a lot of young middle-class people seem to grope around for. (And a lot of those who have it have it in directions that are probably a lot more mysterious to their parents than basic class mobility would be.)

The immigrant thing sort of selects for itself, really: most of the people who up and leave their countries and families to come here aren't just coming here to hang out and do nothing; they are motivated to begin with; that's why they're here. One of the interesting things about people who are first-generation born here is how many of them disappoint their newly middle-class parents by not needing to have that sort of motivation anymore, or pointing their motivation at economically unrewarding stuff like art or culture, or whatever. (I.e., the great cliche/stereotype of the immigrant parent who can't see why you're wasting your time on anything apart from becoming a doctor, because everything in their experience says that if you focus on that stuff you will wind up successful beyond anything you'd ever dreamed of before.)

real-life wasp here just popping in to say that while its true that my blueblood cousins (and my grandparents) look down on the 'aspirational classes' of all races they reserve a special kind of complicated hate for newly rich black folks, but its nothing compared to their bizarre relationship to the jews (this is true more of my grandparents than my cousins)

on that same tip, upper-middle-class aspiration-stagnation is a real enough phenomenon in my family where its all been downhill since the vanderbilts basically

how does this question get considered within the african american community, i wonder? that is, are your Cosby types (who, iirc, is one of the louder critics of 'tacky' aspirational behavior??) ALSO likely to be upper-crusty old-money types? are the vocally left/marxist african americans generally from wealthier backgrounds, or is their solidly working-class criticism of aspirational consumption (or whatever) that comes from within the black community?

or is their = or is there A

i'm coming at this as someone who grew up in a family that lived modestly by choice (there was some money but it stayed in the bank). my dad's mantra was always "you don't need it," and he's right, i usually didn't. today i really appreciate that sense of frugality, even if i personally make dumb financial decisions sometimes. but i think a positive side effect of my upbringing is that i'm not impressed by status symbols.

but i do understand how meaningful those symbols are to a lot of people -- and to my eyes it's definitely more of an economic class thing than a race thing (i see it a lot with poor immigrants who have come to america to escape tough situations). "meaningful" is an abstract concept -- something can't just be meaningful on its own in the universe, it has to be imbued with meaning by somebody. status symbols are pretty meaningless to me, but the world doesn't start and stop with what i think either.

yeah, my parents don't understand what I'm doing with my life, like they're shocked when what I do (write and teach, basically) yields a reward they can understand: how could someone so misguided do something worthwhile! They don't get most of the status symbols that I strive for.

I totally don't want to needle you, get bent, but I wanted to highlight something you said b/c it's kinda key for this discussion: "i'm not impressed by status symbols" but I bet you are, it's just that you have a ranking of the status of status symbols.

er didn't finish that last sentence: I bet you have a ranking of the status of status symbols, and when you say that status symbols don't impress you, you mean that the material status symbols Reverend is talking about qualify as low status status symbols to you. Well, that's a guess.

xposts

(my dad's also a firm believer in paying in cash, and paying down any credit card debt as soon as possible. he doesn't have sympathy for people who are in debt up to their eyeballs -- even though that's 98 percent of the civilized world!)

eh, you're probably right, euler. i have a few things that, while i didn't buy them for status reasons, i'm not ashamed in the slightest to be seen with them. (my enviro-ninja sigg water bottle and manduka yoga mat being good examples.)

at the end of the day, 'low' status symbols like materialism are worse for the world than say 'high' status symbols like, say, having a college degree. does someone really want to argue with that?

I think there's an important difference between simply looking down on people who lust for low status symbols vs. looking down at the *idea* of these status symbols as a bad thing.

It's pretty hard to know you don't want something, if you've never come close enough to it to get a good look at it. Especially when you're bombarded with images and messages designed to increase your desire for those things.

Not having seen these criticisms of poor blacks aired on ilx, I have a hard time imagining them. However, if you search your soul and find yourself among these unnamed over-privileged ilxors who apparently think black folks' aspirations are too crudely materialistic, think for a moment about how and what you eat. I suspect your diet might be pretty high on the hog and you want it to stay that way.

Just a hunch.

and like I said before, I'm still not buying that black people are particularly more materialist than white. but maybe I just know a lot of materialist middle class white people.

yeah I'm kinda nervous about this drifting into "stuff white people like" territory, which tbh my recent posts are flirting with. I don't know of ILX posters who've criticized materialist blacks but I tend to stay out of race threads on here.

i don't get the impression of a homogenous ruling class like that. not to deny the existence of white privilege, just asking really, if these terms JD is talking about really obtain.

i dont think they do. i really dont think that really real rich ppl are setting the agenda in terms of 'tacky'/'good taste' or even particularly interested in trying to enforce those sort of social codes. basically in my experience ruling class types hate everyone including other rich ppl and would consider this a pretty middle-class preoccupation

at the end of the day, 'low' status symbols like materialism are worse for the world than say 'high' status symbols like, say, having a college degree. does someone really want to argue with that?

having a college degree usually means being heavily in debt for an experience that mainly confirmed your previous beliefs, taught you to be more entitled, and gave you a useless credential. how exactly is that better than "low" materialism?

people who look down on materialism piss me off, because they're almost always proportionally more snobby about other equally bullshit status symbols in my experience. the problem isn't materialism it's a basic lack of empathy which can happen on both sides of the coin.

x-post

is there a solidly working-class criticism of aspirational consumption (or whatever) that comes from within the black community

There are plenty of these, culturally, from different directions, I think. Some people would call you bourgie if they thought you were putting on upper-class airs. Some people would consider you ghetto if you were really into jewelry but lived with your mom (even if those people still really liked being able to go shop at nice stores). Some serious-minded people would probably consider you frivolous for spending your money on anything beyond home-buying and child-raising and education. I mean, obviously there are plenty of different cultural levels of black people paying very close attention to one another's class aspirations and mobility and behavior, because, well, this is one loose community where that stuff surely seems to matter way more than in a lot of other places. It probably just plays out more in people's class relationships with one another than in any broad "critique" any group is making.

are your Cosby types (who, iirc, is one of the louder critics of 'tacky' aspirational behavior??) ALSO likely to be upper-crusty old-money types?

Cosby-type criticism has way more to do with age differences, I think, and the mentality of a civil-rights generation that was working to inspire people toward much grander things. This criticism is just as easily made by a dirt-poor old churchgoer or a kid who's more focused on getting to law school than being cool.

are the vocally left/marxist african americans generally from wealthier backgrounds

I really don't know the answer to this question but my sense, if I understand who you're talking about correctly, is that a lot of them come from backgrounds that were really proximate to poverty but doing slightly better -- i.e., if you had semi-educated solidly working-class parents who kept a functioning household, but that household was in a collapsing inner city surrounded by non-functioning ones, that seems like a good recipe for winding up with this sort of viewpoint.

having a college degree usually means being heavily in debt for an experience that mainly confirmed your previous beliefs, taught you to be more entitled, and gave you a useless credential.

Can we not have this argument here? It makes me imagine you trying to go tell this to a bunch of working-class black teenagers who just got into college and are optimistic about their lives.

'useless credential' might be a little much

where's that awful college thread that some UK person started?

thanks nabs!

having a college degree usually means being heavily in debt for an experience that mainly confirmed your previous beliefs, taught you to be more entitled, and gave you a useless credential.

If you want to start another thread about this, I'd be thrilled to argue with you. Totally not my experience at all in college.

What do you guys think of this dude?
http://nymag.com/fashion/09/spring/54331/]

It seems a lot like a body image disorder but the body is extended to include designer clothing and accessories.
If this is a disease with an incarnation that disproportionately affects blacks, then it shouldn't be out of line to subject visible black icons such as Master P or Donald Trump to the same sort of abuse heaped upon Kate Moss for triggering vast waves of white teen girls starving themselves silly.

That is especially not the experience of a lot of working-class people who get to go to college, with great pride, and get to learn things. (This is as true of the lowliest night-classes trade program as it is of the average state school as it is of prestigious private colleges.)

yeah that whole attitude is only prevalent with people that took the opportunity to go to college for granted, like it was as automatic as going to high school

visible black icons such as Master P or Donald Trump

This might be an example of someone extrapolating their particular experience to everyone else in the world. When I went Crown Heights Chassidic Yeshiva to college, my mind got blown.

you were probably especially cloistered before going to college then, i'm guessing

Very cloistered. I had done enough reading/etc to have some relationship to the outside world (thus what inspired my applying to college), but I was cloistered enough to not just have my pre-beliefs confirmed.

xxxxp this kid just seems like a really troubled and sensitive dude.

i sat reading this story in absolute horror, as i couldn't believe i was reading my own story. my emmenced passion for fashion started at the age of about 14.i came out to the street and out of the closet pretty much at the same time.i grew up very well taken care of but , by no means could my aunt and grandmother(they raised me) afford the things i was learning from my peers in the gay community. It was the mid 80's and unfortunately for me at the time it was more important to impress those around me then anything else.i began to start shoplifting.soon after people began to celebrate my shady efforts. known for what seemed to be an inate ability to steal ,the acalades in some strange way were validation. it allowed a kid who was born addicted to herion (my mom used her whole pregnency)and raised without a mom and dad to finally feel good about something it was impowering and i ran with it.before you knew it i was a high school drop out and professional shoplifter.i knew i was a pro by the age of 18 when i was fully supporting myself by these means. lots of available cash ,literally more european designer labels then god and a reputation in the underworld of criminality in nyc. as one of the baddest in the game propelled me to continue.there are people who would be amazed at the adventures i could tell about the lifestyle ive afforded myself as a professional shoplifter however thats not why im here. it is more important that my voice be heard not only by kevahn but by anyone who feels bound by there circumstances. i look up now and im filled with so many regrets. im sure i probably know more about hi-fashion, fashion history and fashion insiders then lots of people working in the indutry today.and in this age of obama i've finally decided to take that leap of faith and follow my dreams of being a fashion stylist. kevahn please know this,time is on your side bro
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By damianprada on 02/20/2009 at 2:59pm

^^ can we get a bollywood director to make this movie??

(This is as true of the lowliest night-classes trade program as it is of the average state school as it is of prestigious private colleges.)

i've done all of these (tho i wouldn't consider the night classes "lowly" or the state school "average") and learned a lot at all of them! i think if you value education and learning to begin with, you WILL get something out of any educational program, even if you have to just use it as a resource and a springboard for more independent learning.

oh yeah, I don't mean to disparage them as "lowly," I just mean ... education makes a profound difference to the people who get it, likely even more so in the kinds of places people might look down on than at the prestigious places people look up to!

"literally more european designer labels then god" is a wonderful phrase

Devil wears Prada, God wears Gucci

Alright, so having slept and attended my classes, I finally have a chance to go through this thread. I'll be with y'all in a bit.

whereas their black counterpart is more often stuck with a choice of one or the other if they even have the option of doing either

would you say this only really affects those who grew up poor?

― tuomasters at work (blueski), Wednesday, March 4, 2009 3:52 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I acknowledge that, hence the "more often" qualifier. Also, the issue of what "poor" means in this context is confused by the rather large differential between the income gap and the wealth gap. I think the latter is more relevant.

Are people saying it is distasteful for the relatively comfortable to tut and shake their heads at those among the people who lack that base level of wealth/opportunity/security whose focus is primarily on acquiring those things? That seems right, but otoh I don't think prioritising non-material things is predominantly or even mostly tied to privilege in any area. Just seems like you should address yr disdain for the pursuit of wealth to people that have at least some.

j0hn D otm - this cannot be separated from class

interesting data here: http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1963

Alright, so a lot to chew on here. I agree with the majority of the comments made in this thread. One thing I'd like to point out that hasn't really been touched on is that, in the dichotomy of growing wealth versus using wealth, I'd be willing to wager that the majority of black (and otherwise), upwardly-mobile strivers are more focussed on the former, but because those who focus on the latter tend to be conspicuous, they become overrepresented in the popular imagination.

this is off the subject, or i guess perpendicular to it, but the thread makes me think of this: i spent a few years volunteering as a big brother, and my "little brother" (a white kid, fwiw) came from a family with your standard and depressing assortment of socioeconomic ills. (dad in jail, mom on permanent disability, kid was largely looked after by an ailing grandmother, they moved every 3 months or so from one low-income housing unit to another, he was in i think 5 elementary schools in two states in the few years i knew him.) anyway, i remember at the beginning of the school year, his mother proudly bringing out to show me all the new, brand-name clothes she'd bought him at the mall -- way more than what she could possibly afford (i don't know where the money came from), and for clothes that he was going to outgrow in 6 months or a year.

i told her how nice the clothes were, and the kid just totally beamed. but my initial internal reaction was, how irresponsible it was of her to spend that kind of money on those clothes when i knew they often struggled for grocery money and it was just reinforcing his sense that his worth was measured by whether he had nikes, etc. -- i.e., a basic liberal anti-materialist disdain. this was compounded by my having grown up wearing mostly used clothes -- my mom was big on flea markets. but the way the kid's mom talked about it -- "he knows i'll always buy him the nice clothes" -- just kind of stopped me. this was a matter of deep pride to her, that she had somehow put together enough money to buy nice clothes with the right brand names. and it was to him, too -- he was going to feel like a better person walking into school than he would in some off-brand jeans and shoes. i could judge the perverse system that set up those identity markers, and be all frowny-liberal tut-tutting about the wrongness of it, but there was no way i could judge her or her son for just trying as best they could to abide by the rules of a game that they had no control over.

xpost to rev

I would say this is pretty much the case with wealthy ppl in general? cf wealthy philanthropist types who 'live well' but unostentatiously (a stereotype, admittedly)

interesting thread that i don't have much to contribute to.

(tipsy that's really well-put)

I really liked your story tipsy.

In other musings, who else is waiting for the time "Hey, I voted for Obama" becomes the new "my best friend is black"?

that will be 2012

Have we ever had a thread interrogating the "my best friend is black" thing? Because while I understand why it's grating (often the issue isn't about your personal life, it's about the sentiments you expressed), there are times when anecdotal evidence about the social groups you associate in are valuable. If you said someone, and someone said, "You only think that because you don't know any black people," wouldn't "My best friend is black," be the appropriate response, even if it's a cliche?

If you said something*, rather.

The problem is that sometimes who you know has absolutely no bearing on the shitty things you think about groups of people.

Right. That's what I was saying. often the issue isn't about your personal life, it's about the sentiments you expressed

Right, so your thesis statement is in direct contradiction with the question immediately following it.

I don't think it is?

I knew several kids growing up who liked and respected me who still went on tirades about niggers in my presence. When I would tell them off, they would always say, "Oh I don't mean you; you're different."

This is why I think the "I have a black friend" rebuttal is meaningless.

I think the "i have a black friend" defense is used as a way to rationalize awful views. Relative of mine went on a tirade about how gays getting married, and if they could get married, what would stop someone from being able to marry a dog. then, "I like gay people, some of my best friends are gay, but..."

"I'm not homophobic/racist, because look at this evidence, so I'm actually a figure of reasonable authority on the matter"

I knew several kids growing up who liked and respected me who still went on tirades about niggers in my presence.

my school had a bunch of asian students on music scholarships - most of them didn't interact much with the other kids (in many cases b/c they weren't all that fluent in english) - one day i was in the common room with some of the white students, and they started slagging off "the chinks" and how you couldn't talk to them, how they kept themselves to themselves ever, and i was like UHHHH? and yeah apparently i was "different". the people doing this were acquaintances rather than friends so i didn't bother arguing, but i've always wondered at their thought processes.

the thought process = fear of the unknown/unfamiliar; you're "inside the wall" so-to-speak because they've seen you around for years and know you can (metaphorically, not literally) speak the same language as them.

I think, "[racist sentiment, racist sentiment], oh you're different," (which I think everyone in some kind of minority group has experienced at some point - I know I have)" is different than the "some of my best friends are [whatever]" argument. The former obviously has no validity, but I can see circumstances where the latter might. Especially when used against racist people. "Not all [whatever] people are [greedy/violent/stupid/etc]" "Yeah? How do you know?" "Well, my best friend is [racial group under discussion]."

Human brains are full of design flaws. Thus irony is born.

That is completely different from "I'm not prejudiced, my best friend is [x]".

My original post doesn't suggest there's anything valuable about "I'm not prejudiced, my best friend is [x]."

mordy i dont think people are bothered by "my best friend is black" as such--theyre bothered by using that phrase to deflect charges of racism

The entire point of the "my best friend is black" argument and why it's contentious is because it is used to deflect accusations of racism. The phrase is shorthand.

http://images.nymag.com/fashion/09/spring/thief090223_2_560.jpg

what about BLAMING your black friend(s) for your racism? my black friend uses the n-word so much that i feel EMPOWERED to use it as much as i want!!! it's kinda his fault!

The other problem with "my best friend" being used to deflect racism is that it defines "racism" as nothing less than actively despising and shunning the company of every single individual from a given group, by which standard hardly anyone has ever been racist.

It's okay for me to point that out because some of my best friends are white

i was semi-serious above, btw - ever since i started hanging with this one black dude who says nigger - not nigga - all the time, and who lols approvingly whenever i use it in a similar fashion, i have been like... just niggerbombing constantly. i've grown insanely comfortable with the word due to his positive reinforcement. i'm not saying this to be, like, a douche, but maybe it's a peek into the validating process for 'some of my best friends...' type racists, where getting close to someone of another race makes them feel EXTRA empowered to make/comfortable with their racist observations?

i.Beat Blaxxx btw

*be comfortable with~