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don't want to sound like andy rooney, but doesn't it seem like ther r a lot more women and girlies posting on ile instead of ilm? why do u think this is?

― junichiro, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think this is cos I know bugger all about music and cannot be bothered to voice an opinion on it as I would get shouted down quicker than you could say Triggerfest. This is not to say I do not love music. I just don't know much about it. Please don't think I am a bad person.

― Emma, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I've noticed women I know's music collections to be smaller then men's I know , but maybe it s just my circle of freinds.

― Mike Hanle y, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i like talking in poetical ellipses . It is easier to do here.

― anthony, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i think it has a lot 2 do with the atmosphere there. i noticed kate and ally get slagged a lot, plus there's an intolerance of not talking about music in a po-faced "serious" way. and a couple of posters there really seem to not like women or a femm style of writing. i love the ladies, that is just wrong.

― junichiro, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don;t know how widespread the intolerance is, tho, junichiro: the "most" inveterently femme-intolerant posters, at least if they be who I think you think they be (= not ILE posters, among other things) are somewhat figures of fun, are they not?

Or do I just think that because I grew up as a child suckled by wolves — or anyway a bevy of touch modern young women — and have never got my gender entirely straight since?

― mark s, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I have some feelings about this, but I won't sully ILE with them. ILM must wash its own dirty laundry.

I will say that if ILM is too annoying, you're reading the wrong threads or listening to the wrong music! Perhaps you should listen to more Shirley Bassey. ;) Basically I keep ending up in the same threads as X.Y. Zedd!

― Kerry, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

listening to the wrong music

explain? i'm just curious what u mean by that.

mark, i'm not sure we're talking about the same people here.

― junichiro, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, I just got sick of being treated like crap on ILM, and I noticed most of the most obnoxious people either don't post here or post very rarely here. Plus, I just like discussing loads of things, not just one set subject.

― Ally, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't post on ILM much because nobody cares about my opinions on music, just as I don't care about anybody on ILM's opinion of music. No one cares about my opinion on ILE either, but at least no one will complain about me? I spend to much $$ on records, I liked being a dj, but I don't much like internet music groups.

― marianna, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, it all sounds a lot like a discussion I had with a friend of mine the other night. Her problem, as she saw it, was that she's never been particularly girlie girlie in her tastes, but whenever she's stuck more than a toe into the world of things that interest her - comics when she was a teenager, indie pop at university and so on - she gets scowled at by a load of blokes because she can't quite remember the names of the people in bands or film directors or whatever, and how they all connect up. So feeling inadequate because she can't be sure whether Method Man is something to do with the Wu-Tang or NWA and whether it was Hal Hartley or Jim Jarmusch who made Stranger Than Paradise, she shuts up. And feels miserable.

― Mark Morris, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i sincerely hope that i am not guilty of any dislike of female writing on ILM, and hope i haven't been intolerant in this (or any other) way. i like things to be inclusive, and aim to contribute to this

― gareth, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I assume that anyone with a woman's name on the Interweb is a 40-year old trucker bloke anyway.

― Tom, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Imagine how surprised I was, on first meeting Tom, that he is a dangerously attractive young lady with a sharp tongue and a taste for the Pimms.

― Tim, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

As you know me in real life, Tom, I am now deeply insulted.

― Dave, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I've actually banned myself from ILM in an attempt to do more work! I can't yet live without ILE though.

I used to post on ILM when I had something to say, but a lot of the questions refer to bands/genres I don't know anything about. I think a lot of the Big Questions have been asked so it's becoming a bit more obscure.

― Madchen, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's not about explicit intolerance or the obnoxiousness of particular persons (although there are a few and Gareth is not one of them). It's just a cultural thing that grates on the nerves sometimes. But like I intimated in my earlier post, it's strangely absent when some topics are being discussed.

Oh, and Tarden / Dave Q. doesn't bother me - in fact, he amuses me greatly. Irreverence is never intimidating and is by nature the opposite of arrogance.

― Kerry, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Gareth, don't be sensitive, it's not you :)

Anyhow, Tom, I don't appreciate you spilling the beans, I have only told a few people about my lumberjack status and this just isn't right. I demand a retraction.

― Ally, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ally, you bitch, when I asked you for advice about cutting down that tree the other week you said you could offer no help.

― Josh, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

As a top three poster here I a;ways feel a scpecial feeling of worth when I hear "I can't yet live without ILE though. " I like to think people come here to read my posts, and they do. We shoudl re name it I LOVE MIKE HANLEY. ILM can get tedius , espcially when peopl epost a ten paragraph unorganised ramble. And when people are always sayihg "THat thread is already done " .

― Mike Hanle y, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

tarden ist cool. he doesn't bother me.

― junichiro, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is the condescension Mark Morris speaks of typical? In my experience male music obsessives [and I speak as one myself] will generally be delighted to find women who share their enthusiasm. And will also readily acknowledge when those women know more or can express their enthusiasm better than themselves. I don't often post to ILM myself because, deep as my love of music is, I can rarely think of anything original to say on the subject. I'm happy to stick to a message board where I can talk about drugs, crisps and my favourite colour (it's green!). But I do think that some of the ladies who are now only posting here are mistaken if they believe that their opinions were not given due weight by the majority of the people who read ILM.

― scott, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I should post this on the "how do I pull?" thread too, but in my experience, ability to talk about music and football vastly improves my (admittedly not actually that vast) ability to pull.

― Madchen, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Is there a "How Do I Pull?" thread?

― Tom, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You should start one. I could really do with some tips.

― scott, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ILM: full of men competing with tough musical knowledge.

ILE: full of men competing in a vast orgy of semi-ironic self- deprecation. Probably less threatening.

('threatening' being in the cultural sphere a word used to make men feel dangerous and powerful when what is often actually meant is 'boring')

― Tom, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The thing is, competing for who knows more is invariably a boring, stodgy pursuit. I mean, how many different ways can a discussion say the exact same thing in a slightly cleverer way before you want to smack all involved? Not many. It's all good, it's just not something that the type of women who seem to be on this board would be that interested in.

(insert Mike: because you're all tarts)

― Ally, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ironically , another secret forum I write into is having a debate about " We shoudl be discussingmusic, not random trivial things!" and I am trying to make it more like beloved ILE.

― Mike Hanle y, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i haven't noticed ilm being especially misogynist, competitive, or condescending.

― sundar subramanian, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

There are just certain people there that I find deeply, deeply irritating. Unfortunately a few of them meander here lately. And yes, I am being a bitch because quite frankly I can't take that sort of thing anymore. It made me give up my completely anti-ILM stance because if they can annoy me, I can annoy them too. BOO-YAH.

― Ally, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I always wondered what my ex-girlfriend was talking about when she said "it's intimidating when guys like you and *****(other male music nerds)**** start talking about deleted Sex Pistols singles and whatever". I thought I knew what she meant, and replied that I used to feel intimidated too, but I listened to them when they talked about that junk until I could keep up with the discussion, and how the hell would that learning process be any different for a girl? I see now that it's got to be a lot weirder for a girl because ALL of the music nerds we knew were guys. Gender *is* a factor in making you feel even more out of place - it's about feeling like you're different and/or removed from everyone else. Think about how it feels to be the only black kid at an all-white school; of course you'd feel extra intimidated.

― Dave M., Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I wish people would get a little more specific in their grievances about the behavior of ILM males, because I have no idea what anybody is talking about, and if I'm contributing to it, I'd bloody well like to stop.

― Patrick, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But when the naming starts, things get even worse. Not to mention that I feel excluded since nobody never names me in any respect. *sigh*

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

like Andrew L. already said it's still just the cultural status of music nerd-dom, that it's a guy thing...so even tho most of the women i know IRL ('cause most of the PEOPLE i know IRL, I live in the nerd ghetto) are sorta music nerds to some extent, it's a hard thing to get over...me i wish more women, if they care about it, just beat the thing by just y'know, doing it...anyway lots of 'em do...i know that lots of stuff on ILM that I read & think is good is by women (Kerry K., Maryann, for e.g.) - all men can "do about it" is what you should just do anyway, like just mainly *not be a jerk*.

― duane, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

yeah & like Sterling said, naming names - no let's don't, it ends in people going out in a flamin bummer, always.
(hey Sterling - hey I mentioned yr name!)

― duane, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was reluctant to post to this thread for that reason - I didn't want to make anyone paranoid. So, don't worry, because for me, at least, I didn't post what I did with anyone here in mind. If something bothers me, I usually say so at the time, or it comes out eventually.

I frequently confuse posters' identities anyway...

― Kerry Keane, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh yeah & when i said 'don't need to name names' yeah well still maybe i shoulda given more examples of female ILM posters that i like than (a) 1 sittin in the same virtual rm & (b) 1 sittin in the next IRL rm., it might've looked kind of token. but i won't.

― duane, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"And yes, I am being a bitch because quite frankly I can't take that sort of thing anymore. " Ally

Comments like this make me giggle with happiness

― Mike Hanley, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

But when the naming starts, things get even worse. Not to mention that I feel excluded since nobody never names me in any respect. *sigh*

I hate you, Sterling. You fucking misogynistic bastard.

In all seriousness though, naming names is really wrong and horrible and only complete fucking morons do something like that in a public place to people who haven't actually said anything to them. It's like, yeah, I dislike certain people's attitudes and styles. I'm sure people dislike me. But unless there's some REASON for you to say so, what is the point?

― Ally, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was just going to point out that Sterling's posts rock mad hard, but going directly after Ally's makes it look all defensive-like. They do, though.

― Dave M., Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mike, I have a big recordcollection. In fact I don't know many people who have more records than I do. Secondly, someone said he would be delighted discussing music with women. Now whenever that happens, you either get hit on or slagged off for being too confrontational (as a woman). On top of that I... feel extremely stupid on ILM. Rightfully so because I don't... analyze music all that much.

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Name names. Otherwise it's like parents saying "Don't tell the kids we're getting D-I-V-O-R-C-E-D"

― dave q, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Both my posts on this thread have been jokes, I should say. So there's not some secret blacklist of "competitive" men that I'm hiding.

― Tom, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Name names? Oh uh, don't think you'd know'em. I was talking about talking about music *face to face*. some would love to do it face *on* face. hah!

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tom shattrs my dreams with one swift blow. Alas!

― Dan Perry, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I like the idea of Tom hiding competitive men. Everyone's got to have some strange quirk.

― Nick, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Obviously I have a secret blacklist of men I consider to be *the competitition* Nick but that's a separate thing.

― Tom, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh oops, thought you were addressing me there. I am not paranoid. I am just extremely self centered. hah!

― nathalie (nathalie), Friday, 3 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I just haven't had enough time lately to be able to slog through all the new postings on both boards, so I've concentrated on this one for now, because a) it's got more variety b) seems more amenable to a drop in/drop out kind of style. Um, plus it's true... I'm noticing a lot of redundancy on ILM now, so it is a touch more on the boring side than before... and also, there is a bit of an attitude "something" that is contributing to this - something that's difficult to articulate, so I'm afraid that I won't even try for now. I literally have no time. But I really haven't banished myself from ILM or anything foolish like that. It's not such a big deal.

― Kim, Friday, 3 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Natalie, glad to hear of your collection of "Big Records". DO you own any little "45" ones?

― Mike Hanle y, Friday, 3 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

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