Ordering "Off the Menu"

ilx seems to have lots of opinions about dining so let's hear them

i never do this, mostly because when my dad's business started taking off and he was feeling like a big shot, he started doing this all the time. and not even in fine dining establishments -- i recall times when he would instruct the server at chain restaurants how he wanted his meal prepared. on top of that, he would usually send his order back to the kitchen if it wasn't up to his specifications. he probably managed to get away with it because, like a big shot, he would always overtip by a ridiculous amount. still, whenever i'm out with anyone who orders off the menu i get flashbacks and my ears burns with filial embarassment.

are there circumstances where this is ever okay?

fwiw my dad doesn't do this any more, thank god.

I think the only time I've done this is when I've ordered the "veggie Whopper" at Burger King (basically a Whopper w/no meat, not to be confused with the BK Veggie Burger or whatever they call it). At some Burger Kings, I have to explain it; at others, they know exactly what it is. (That makes it sound like I eat at Burger King a lot. I don't. I think this has mostly been on road trips.)

are we talking "off the menu" like "can i get that without ingredient XXX"

or "off the menu" like "can i get this meal thats not actually on the menu"

i dont really mind doing this at diners and places were i imagine my meals are being made on a grill by a couple guys who dont really care if i ask for avocados on my BLT or whatever but places where care & thought has gone into the menu--and i think most places above the diner level of dining count--i feel like a dick. i mean, im not a chef, and i dont have a restaurant, and it feels like the height of jagitude to try and create my own dish

I guess the Veggie Whopper isn't substantially different from asking for a Big Mac without the cheese, but it feels different because it has a name.

xp Max OTM.

something that isn't even on the menu. like, "can I get the haddock, broiled, and can you put some garlic and breadcrumbs and cheese on top. and a side of broccoli, but can you make them with some garlic"

i would never, ever do that, and if someone at my table did it i would either hide my face in my napkin in shame and tip 50% or just walk out

yea f this

what a disaster

"can i get this meal thats not actually on the menu"

this is the worst.

btw this seems like the kind of thing yelpers would do

im not a chef, and i dont have a restaurant, and it feels like the height of jagitude to try and create my own dish

OTM. I think this is pretty much inexcusable unless you have food allergies.

re: ingredient substitutions (ie, "take off [x]" or "can I have [y] instead?"), I am actually fine with that as long as it's a request "within reason" (ie, you are asking for a side dish or minor component to be changed; it's like the difference between asking for a green vegetable to replace the potatoes because you don't eat carbs vs. "I'd like a mojito, but can you replace the mint with coconut milk, the club soda with pineapple juice, and throw it in a blender with ice? THX!")

come do think of it, that is almost the exact meal my grandmother would order when we went to l3gal seaf00d, maybe my dad inherited the trait xp

in fairness that sounds pretty great

At the local Chinese restaurant to my parent's house, when i go with my parents, two of us will often have two meals split 50/50 across two plates - half sweet & sour chicken, and half beef & mixed veg - we could do it ourselves at the table but we'd have to ask for extra plates and it'd be messy as hell. That and asking, in pubs, to not have peas and carrots with whatever meal (and then fucking getting them anyway), is as close as I get to this. Having worked in a pub that did a lot of food for many years, I know it's not a big deal to ask for something to be left off. I'd never give instructions to the chef, though, beyond "medium-rare", if I ever ate steak. Once at an Indian restaurant one of our party asked for a phal (not on the menu). And got one. And sweated.

To get away with this, you have to be so recognizably awesome that the restaurant benefits just from your presence

yeah the thing about ingredient substitution is that it seems fine up to a certain point but at nice restaurants (like $25+ entrees i guess) i start feeling weird about it, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is sometimes those dishes are really complicated to make

i think people who do this just sort of dont "get" the concept of eating at a restaurant

the best is when someone at your table asks for a seemingly innocuous ingredient to be left out that actually ends up being the lynchpin that makes the dish edible

if there are serious dietary restrictions or allergies, i think it's okay tho - but it always helps in those cases to call ahead. e.g., as a vegan i've been to group dinners where i know there's not even a vegetarian item on the menu, but i'll always call the restaurant ahead of time to arrange something.

i have one friend who always has a set of bizarre requests--like not creating dishes but asking for so many additions/substitutions that the original dish becomes unrecognizable--and i always feel like: "why dont you just cook your fucking meal at home"

tho: in her sort-of defense: she used to be anorexic & i think she still has a lingering complex abt controlling the food she eats--i guess not so much about quantity but clearly has a need to control what exactly is going in her body

"I would like an omelet, but could you add some flour and baking powder to it and fry it on the griddle?"

Friend once ordered a thai omelette from a thai place that didn't do thai omelettes, i don't know what this involved but he seemed to know what he was talking about and so did they and they seemed more than happy to oblige. I think if it's less like "fuck yr menu let me tell you what i want" and more like "i deeply respect yr cuisine and would love for you to serve me something you wouldn't give to the regular n00bs" then you might be able to get away with it.

i think one thing abt that is that a lot of so-called "ethnic" places tend toward the diner-style broad menu--its not that often (tho its getting more common) that you encounter a thai/indian/vietnamese place with the same kind of menu-crafting culture that u find at some other spots. checkered-tablecloth italian places tend to be like this in my experience to--they might not have a caprese salad on the menu but theyll whip some up for you without a fuss if you ask.

i'm curious as to how a restaurant even prices a special order like this. punitively, maybe?

i guess the point just being that places with big-ass menus that cover a ton of fairly basic dishes are probably a lot more open/friendly to ordering off the menu than places with smaller menus w/ a few specialized & clearly house-created recipes

Many Chinese or Indian places here will have a nota bene on the menu suggesting diners ask for a dish they don't see on the menu, so sometimes it's not a big deal or it's PLEASE SAVE US FROM THIS CANTONESE BS WE ARE ONLY HUNAN.

Once at an Indian restaurant one of our party asked for a phal (not on the menu). And got one.

I am fine with ordering off-menu from the basic British curry spectrum (korma to phall) in regular (i.e. not upscale) British Indian restaurants. I don't do it myself, but I don't mind when people do, and neither to the restaurants, it seems. They make all the sauces from the same spice slop anyway.

There's also ordering "off the menu" in, for example, Vietnamese restaurants, wherein the menu has a more "Vietnamese Food for Americans" theme but the restaurant also offers Vietnamese Food for SE Asians if you know what to ask for. (Although my fave Vietnamese restaurant offers "cow penis" pho so if they are dumbing down their menu for Americans, this American is definitely like whoa.)

xp I see this has been covered already.

I'm occasionally guilty of going wildly off menu, although I try very hard to do it in a polite, respectful, and non-entitled way, and I limit it to restaurants where I am a regular and where I don't think I'm going to insult a chef. For example, the bar'n'grill a block from our house offers grilled chicken wraps, and various other meats on buns, but no grilled chicken on a bun, and I asked if they could make me a grilled chicken sandwich on a bun with pickles and swiss cheese and they were like, "Yeah dude!"

i cant really think of a place that could be described as a "bar and grill" where i would feel uncomfortable asking for some permutation of common meat, common cheese, pickles and a bun

the spotted pig maybe

That's good to hear, max, because I was feeling like I was maybe being an asshole for doing it.

"You know what I could really go for -- a catfish po-boy and a diet raspberry fanta"

To get away with this, you have to be so recognizably awesome that the restaurant benefits just from your presence

― congratulations (n/a), Friday, 12 June 2009 14:09 (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah I'm envisaging Michael Winner as like the public face of people who might try this

im not a chef, and i dont have a restaurant, and it feels like the height of jagitude to try and create my own dish

OTM. I think this is pretty much inexcusable unless you have food allergies.

^^^^^^ That's completely otm although Jenny's chicken on a bun thing is ok too since it's so simple.

On the other hand, my Dad (who is a chef/restaurant owner) used to insist on dragging me to steak houses even though I'm a vegetarian and then asking if the kitchen could prepare something for me which they were usually more than happy to do. Although I guess that's not that weird since it would normally just consist of sides of veg that they already had going and sort of goes along with the food restrictions thing.

FWIW if the person/ppl requesting things off the menu were regulars then I think this is a whole different story and 100% ok.

To get away with this, you have to be so recognizably awesome that the restaurant benefits just from your presence

This obviously explains my success with the grilled chicken sandwich. That or the beauty bubble I inhabit.

I'd never have the nerve to order a dish that wasn't on the menu, for reasons covered above. I don't have much interest in substitutions, either, given that I have no allergies or dietary restrictions and it would probably make a dish more like something I'd cook at home. I hate going out to eat and getting something similar to what I'd make at home, because I'll invariably like it the way I do it better (I'm one of those insufferable cooks who really loves their own mediocre cooking) and resent paying restaurant prices for it. Basically novelty should be one of the key attractions of dining out.

xpost - haha elmo i was thinking of that catfish poboy line myself, but i couldn't remember exactly what the ridiculous order was

I hate going out to eat and getting something similar to what I'd make at home, because I'll invariably like it the way I do it better (I'm one of those insufferable cooks who really loves their own mediocre cooking) and resent paying restaurant prices for it.

^^ i totally agree with this, less cuz i like my own cooking, which i dont, but more cause i feel like such a sucker paying $15 for pork chops or whatever

i guess the point just being that places with big-ass menus that cover a ton of fairly basic dishes are probably a lot more open/friendly to ordering off the menu than places with smaller menus w/ a few specialized & clearly house-created recipes

― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Friday, June 12, 2009 9:23 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, this. think sometimes if you order some like ethnic food deep-cut (like yr thai omelette) it might actually up yr street cred with the restaurant, and the cooks might be excited to oblige

also, sushi places: always thought that ordering off menu was a baller move, and generally well-received if not encouraged by the chefs

I think the ultimate sushi baller move is just suavely ordering the chef's specialty, like dealer's choice, and then not batting an eye when you get something way weird.

hahah ethnic food deep cut a++

the ultimate sushi baller move to is show up at a sushi joint dripping wet with a live fish in your hands

lol

right, exactly. so i guess it's not quite off menu since yr not making any requests, but i still think that if you were to, in addition, ask for some weirdo thing not on the menu they'd be OK with it.

tho, i once ordered a chef's specialty at a local place (it was delicious) and was crestfallen to discover that three or four other ppl had gotten the same thing. that is, i had sort of assumed that the chef would make up something unique for each person that said hey bro make me whatever

it showed up on the tab as "chef's special." which makes sense, i guess, but still

my friend recently ordered a thai omelette (which was on the menu) and the chef/owner came out from the back to ask her if she had been to thailand. she was like "it was on...the menu."

Baller? Who here is turning into neil strauss, make it STOP...

OMAKASE, folks. Only word you need in a sushi bar.

part of my reaction is that I used to sing with this dude who ordered drinks like this regularly wherever we went, like for example Uno's

Yep. I used to bartend at a really busy dive bar and those sort of orders would not have been v welcome when it was really busy etc. That said, I did like making obscure old fashioned cocktails during off hours just to pass the time.

I mean, if you are at the sports bar down the street after rehearsal and you order a martini, so what who cares. If you make a big fucking production out of ordering a martini where you start not only specifying your gin but also start describing the arcane ritual you want the bartender to perform with the vermouth and giving precise degrees of coldness that you want the glass to be and then are a sandy douche if the bartender doesn't do it, you need to stfu and go home.

old fashioned cocktail orders

Ha, I went to a bar one time and ordered an actual old-fashioned, and the bartender looked at me and said, "I'm sorry, what's in that?" And the thing is, I actually didn't know, it just sounded like a good idea, so I had to be all "uhhh" and I ordered a beer instead. :/

(TO CLARIFY: specifying the alcohol in a martini is to be encouraged; being a poser fuckface with all the other bullshit is not)

i always feel like a tool ordering drinks. like someone's judging me and finding me wanting.

I go off-menu sometimes but it's usually kind of embarrassing because e.g. it'll be a nice restaurant but just too late to eat and I can't face these rich, well-thought-out dishes, so I'll have to ask them to make up something simple instead. Never had any problems doing so, and it's best for everyone because they don't end up having to bin whatever it is they've spent all day thinking up. Any burden of shame I take on my own broad shoulders

I once ordered a vodka gimlet at a bowling alley bar. The (probably 17-yr old) bartender asked me what was in it. So these things, they are a spectrum. A really ludicrous spectrum.

Dan OTM in regards to drink orders.

I like OFs - they're great. Also great is the fact that there is a tool you use to make them that every bar has but is only really used to make that one drink.

(Dan this was @ C. Kitchen in H Square so not really the kind of place one would think to deliver elaborate instructions along with their drink order)

i like ordering godfathers, rusty nails, maybe a stinger, but those are pretty easy drinks to make and easy to tell the tender what's in them

With drinks, I always ask the bartender if they can make a drink I want before I order it if it's something arcane. Fortunately, I like really boring drinks (gin martinis, G&T, margaritas) so there's rarely any time when I have to describe a drink. (Once, though, my wife had to tell a bartender what was in a cosmopolitan. I stuck to beer that night.)

this was @ C. Kitchen

omg looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Ha, I went to a bar one time and ordered an actual old-fashioned, and the bartender looked at me and said, "I'm sorry, what's in that?" And the thing is, I actually didn't know, it just sounded like a good idea, so I had to be all "uhhh" and I ordered a beer instead. :/

― Bianca Jagger (jaymc), Friday, June 12, 2009 12:24 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha this happened to me once in college & i recovered by giving her a blank look and saying, "you know what, just make a martini"

x-post - Yep - I worked at the upstairs bar for like 4 mo. when I first moved to Boston which was (omg) 10 yrs ago this fall.

I dine with someone who ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS does this (OOM then is). Quite minor things like asking for mash at the Fat Duck, that type of thing.

wait, that was right around the time that I was singing in a group that would drink upstairs there after rehearsal on Tuesday nights

also the location for this story: Someone's attempt at hitting on you that spectacularly failed

i like ordering godfathers, rusty nails, maybe a stinger, but those are pretty easy drinks to make and easy to tell the tender what's in them

― roman knockwell (elmo argonaut), Friday, June 12, 2009 11:28 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah these are std drinks that bartenders ought to know

i don't know any of those drinks!

(i am not a bartender)

dude really? i mean, i guess i took a bartending course (lol college), but rusty nails are simple as hell

Dan - I worked Sundays and TUESDAY NIGHTS. This would have been from like late Sept - Dec 1999.

my favorite old man drink is campari & soda, which is obviously very easy to make but in my experience there's only about a 30% chance that a bar keeps campari on hand

also - OMG at the story, btw.

lololol

I need to go back and check if that group was '99 or '00; now that I think about it, it might have been the following year.

this town, so small

It really is.

godfather - scotch & amaretto
rusty nail - scotch & drambuie
stinger - brandy & white creme de menthe

the person least pleased at the end of that story wasn't me with my pulped hand or my molested friend, but my molested friend's small easily-beaten-up girlfriend who was furious about the situation but too smart to try to take this random woman on

Yeah, I don't blame her.

i like rusty nails every now and then

can't honestly say i've had a stinger

I am going out Monday night, I should try a rusty nail.

BTW for your sake I hope it was '00 because I was a pretty crappy bartender tbh. I actually got fired for serving someone underage but I was bartending, waiting and busing the entire upstairs that night nwhich is a tall and ridiculous order if you ask me.

eh, we would have been an easy group because we were all beer drinkers

dan, they are good! maybe a bit too easy to get drunk on tbh

proportion is key, tho

i had to do some serious convincing one morning to get the bartender to make me a high life mimosa.

It's the champagne of mimosas.

Drambuie is kind of disgusting, FYI.

i bartended through college and was always happy to make folks old fashioneds, stingers, manhattans, grasshoppers, etc. popping beers gets boring. i really can't remember folks being too obnoxious w/ their specifications, but i'm sure it happened.

(the ppl who typically oredered these drinks were old as hell and would do this little finger wave to get my attention. it was kind of cute/funny)

Drambuie is kind of disgusting, FYI.

In high school someone ended up with a bottle of Drambuie once and we were all hyped on getting drunk on REAL BOOZE which nobody ever had before and had our dreams shattered really quickly.

As for off-the-menu stuff, I have a pasty white midwestern friend who lived in China for two years and is totally fluent who just asks for the "real" menu whenever he goes to a Chinese restaurant. It usually means more choices and cheaper prices.

std drinks? That's a real dive bar.

yeah i was sorta waiting for someone to do that

OK this is killing me. What's that "catfish po' boy and a diet raspberry fanta" line from?

30 rock

30 rock

30 rock

30 rock

BTW for your sake I hope it was '00 because I was a pretty crappy bartender tbh. I actually got fired for serving someone underage but I was bartending, waiting and busing the entire upstairs that night nwhich is a tall and ridiculous order if you ask me.

― sloth say hi to me (ENBB), Friday, June 12, 2009 12:41 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark

hahahah girl i know just got fired from c. kitchen for selling cigarettes to a 17-year-old.

I find it mind-boggling that CK would fire anyone for underage shenaningans given the number that I know folks I went to school with constantly perpetrated there

i guess this happens with drink orders too -- when my bf was a server he took an order for a round of some cocktail from a bachelorette party and was asked if the bartender could "drench the ice cubes in stoli vanilla" -- wtf does that even mean, drench the ice cubes

hahahaha i think i am going to start asking for this

i know this is a lot upthread but drambuie is great stfu.

Rusty nail ftw.

Seconding the love for Drambuie. Needs lots of ice.