THIS WORLD CUP SUCKS ASS!!!!

but I WUV it so far. I'm pissed off I missed italy-croatia (the only interesting game i've missed so far!) but it will hot up once the second round starts (no more saudi arabia etc).

Cabras Don't say bad things abt World Cup: You'll miss it when its gone!

This world cup is gonna be the most media driven its gonna be crazy.

Given that she is a rilly, rilly big footy fan and all, despite being female. And Welsh.

Club world cup is a good idea, I think...anyone engaging with it?

Terrible idea. I don't know anyone who is interested in it but then I don't know everyone.

I haven't watched a sec of it but my reflex would be to want to see European and South American teams playing each other, other parts of the world too. Problem is its at the end of season. Obv FIFA running it is another issue...

I went to see Dortmund vs Mamelodi Sundowns with my brother-in-law and nephews because one of the boys is a Dortmund fan. The stadium was about half empty and it was very hot out, but the game was actually pretty good, Dortmund plugging away to win 4-3. Attendance seems to have been lousy outside of games featuring the biggest name clubs/players. I don't understand the logic of putting it on in competition with the Gold Cup but then again I don't work for FIFA or CONCACAF.

Seems kind of like an Infantino ego trip and another attempt to sell football to the US/ China/ anyone with lots of money.

the games have been good! trying to see if the prices go down for semifinals

Streaming has been free on DA ZONE so I've had day matches on in the background. Cool that Brazilian teams were doing a great job of upstaging the Europeans for a bit.

Most of the hot weather US World Cup stadiums are domes, don't know why they put so many of these in the worst climates for summer day games in the open air.

While it might be good for South American teams to get some money and a piece of the pie, there is too much football. The players are being treated like cattle and get less and less time off. And it's obviously also all very connected to Trump and Maga. Besides the ethics of it, I haven't watched any of it because it just feels like one of the meaningless tournaments you get in any preseason.

Is too much football true outside of a few superstars? Most players even in the top leagues average less than one match a week for the year including national teams.

If you’re a Madrid or PSG going deep in every competition with international starters, you can afford to rotate more.

That's the problem imo, it's just more of an arms race for bigger and bigger squads and a small number of powerful teams. I think one game a week is a lot also? And the summer break seems to get shorter and shorter.

whole tournament was obv a way for Saudi to financially reward FIFA for giving them the world cup. the best players never getting a summer free from football is why so many end up getting crocked surely. haven't watched any of the matches.

Seems like more and more top top (top) players are carrying on to 40 or over too tho.

In America or Saudi Arabia but besides goalies not really at the top level?

Sure, I just wouldn't say it's too many games in this respect (plus winter breaks seem to have increased). In the past there'd be a Confederations Cup around now (I miss it!).

In theory I guess it could be a good idea, in current and previous incarnations, it is not.

it's just more of an arms race for bigger and bigger squads and a small number of powerful teams

Spain has been a 2.5 team league for ages, France a 1 team league for a decade, Italy is actually competitive, Germany has been a 1 team league for decades then OTOH everyone in the Premier League can outspend and outpay everyone aside Barcelona/Madrid/PSG/Bayern, none of that's a product of the CWC and the superteams are the ones complaining about too many competitions because they refuse to rotate/use a larger squad.

South American clubs getting some of this windfall might actually marginally weaken Europe for a little while if they can keep a few more talents for longer.

Seems like more and more top top (top) players are carrying on to 40 or over too tho.

James Milner

South American clubs getting some of this windfall might actually marginally weaken Europe for a little while if they can keep a few more talents for longer.

Absolutely no chance of that happening. The Saudis, the Gulf states have all their money in Europe, the Americans are heading that way too, they couldn't give a fuck about South American football.

not sure that's really true - the superteams are playing in the cwc, not complaining about it.

the people complaining about it are former coaches or fans, as far as i can see.

and while it is true that leagues are dominated by a small number of teams, that situation can still get worse, and it is.

this isn't going to make club football truly global in any way, so all it will do is widen the gap between rich and poor european teams. much of what happens now in football in europe is making sure the current order is made permanent and this is another part of that.

xpost

xp - it's happening right now though! Miami was confirmed as clearing north of $20mn for making the round of 16, with them that's 6 Western Hemisphere clubs getting that payday and several of them have a chance to go deeper. Plus Benfica getting that money from outside the big money European leagues.

that situation can still get worse

How can the situation get worse than Spain/France/Germany?! Bayern might win 12 straight titles instead of 11?

bayer leverkusen won the league last season.

besides that - it can get worse by the financial gap between clubs being bigger and more permanent and that has knock-on effects down the leagues.

bayer leverkusen won the league last season.

And Dortmund blew it on the last game of the season the year before.

any good that comes from it, and it's at best a mixed bag in that regard, is just a side effect anyway. this tournament and how it came to exist is rotten to the core.

Professional sports in general are rotten to the core but the primary European complaints seem to all be issues created by Europeans - financial gaps (existed long before this), too many competitions (UEFA created the Nations League, no one makes England have two cups, just expanded the Champions League, etc.), refusal to rotate (Liverpool gleefully ran its best players into the ground while washing out of the cups, Champions League and not being in the CWC).

i'm not speaking in general, i'm speaking specifically about the cwc. do you know how it came to exist, without googling?

and financial gaps, as we have discussed, are worsening.

'europeans' do not all own or control uefa - it is a small organisation, and again, it is not the clubs who are complaining about cwc, it is people who care about the game. the clubs are happily participating.

as for 'refusal to rotate', we're now entering truly bizarre territory.

washing out of the cups

they got to the final of the league cup and in the fa cup they were knocked out after resting almost every player.

champions league

narrowly lost to the team that won it after beating them away.

and they also won the league.

but what liverpool's selection policy has to do with the tiny group of powerful people that run the game is beyond me. oh wait, because they're 'europeans', though of course liverpool are actually owned by americans.

also wtf is 'not being in the cwc' in this context? this year is the first ever cwc and it only began after the end of the prem season.

Yeah its a fucked situation with so much football at both club (Champions league changing format) and International level (the nations league, which again I've hardly engaged with).

More playing careers will end much sooner.

exactly, the expansion of the cl and the nations league are part of the same problem.

What led to the revive was seeing a tweet by someone enjoying Palmeiras and Botafogo (they were enjoying the Palmeiras kit, which is this shade of green, lol).

But the tournament itself would be a lot shorter. Its just the wrong time and environment to introduce this xp

Meanwhile, Chelsea game suspended for two hours with just 4 minutes left to play and when they come back Benfica have taken it to extra time with an injury time penalty lol

yeah i am definitely aware of the angle that south american teams want this tournament, it's been discussed a lot in the various football podcasts etc. just too many other bad things about it, imo. but hey, maybe it'll mean liverpool win the league again, albeit by continuing their mad strategy of prioritising the most important trophy.

xpost

Club World Cup is football's 'worst idea ever' - Klopp

global players' union Fifpro released a report saying players should be allowed at least a four-week off-season break

those crazy europeans are at it again

but what liverpool's selection policy has to do with the tiny group of powerful people that run the game is beyond me.

Because Liverpool aren't subject to what the "tiny group of powerful people" have done this time but still ran their starters into the ground, which indicates that this particular competition might not be the supreme villain. "Too many matches" is an issue affecting a small number of star players at a handful of the biggest and richest clubs and the solutions already exist - larger squads, more rotation, sitting out irrelevant national team matches.

The player with the most minutes at Udinese played 39 matches (including two in Poland before transfer) and a handful internationally. That's far closer to the norm for players in even the top leagues than Madrid running out one guy for 70 and the choice to do that rests on the player and club who don't properly rest.

Larger squads built by buying the best players from clubs poorer than them (and then hardly playing them), further impoverishing those clubs and making it even harder for them to compete with the rich clubs that keep poaching their best players.

Wait are you describing what's been happening since the '80s or the future if Manchester City actually used all 25 spots it can register for each competition?

Next thing we might hear is that a rich continent is hoovering up all the best talent from poorer nations.

Yes, and we're saying it's getting worse. That's about the fourth time someone has had to point that out.

And Liverpool played their best players, from a relatively small squad for a bigger side, because they had to, in order to win the league, which is their priority. You seem to be saying if you were in charge you'd have won every trophy by resting more players, if only Arne Slot had realised that, Darwin Nunez could have lightened the load for Mo Salah. Or players could simply not play international matches - maybe especially if their country isn't very good? Obviously nobody has ever thought of this before nor has it been a massively controversial move if any player ever tried it.

And Liverpool are subject to what the powers that be do, that's the point you're continuously missing. The CWC is a further example of a trend towards a more packed calendar. It's the latest addition to it.

Players don't want this. Lots of fans can see it worsens an already bad situation on a number of levels, and the creation of the tournament is as naked and grand a piece of corruption as the game as ever seen, arguably. That part can't be ignored either.

Like which countries do you think would get shafted if players decided hmmm we better stop playing so many international games? Would it be Spain of France?

And if you're basically admitting something has to give with the amount of international matches, who do you think that aligns you with in the landscape of this?

Yes, and we're saying it's getting worse

And I’m saying if that’s true (it does not appear to be - the situation hasn’t actually changed) it’s not because of a quadrennial competition involving a handful of the European teams whose fans are complaining.

And Liverpool played their best players, from a relatively small squad for a bigger side, because they had to, in order to win the league, which is their priority.

Yes, that’s the point. One of the five highest revenue generating clubs in the world overplayed its starters into the ground by using a “relatively small squad.” Running Gravenberch and Salah into the ground instead of using Endo, Elliott, Chiesa and Nunez was a choice. They’re not being forced into doing so.

I didn’t say I’d rotate and win every trophy. I’d rotate and prioritize. Slot has even said he didn’t rotate enough in the league and against the lesser CL competition.

Like which countries do you think would get shafted

I don’t care? IDGAF about national teams.

lfc lost to the best team in the cl. on pens. got to the final of one of the 2 domestic cup competitions. don't know about the wider points you're trying to make about a global football schedule but wrt lfc your arguments are bizarre.

the situation has changed. financially, this will clearly exacerbate the inequality and cement the gap between teams. that is a fact, it will be shown on balance sheets. it's not 'a handful of teams' - many fans don't want this, but you don't realise that because you're not willing to accept how detached from this sport you are.

as for liverpool, i do think they did what they had to do. they played the same team a lot to win the most important competition over an entire season, because they didn't trust the alternatives. of course, slot has ruminated a bit on not winning every trophy, and there are debates about team selection and rotation but teams shouldn't need 30 world class players, as again, this just means even more hoovering up/wasting of talent from elsewhere. liverpool took a gamble last summer, in service of being a well-run club, by not signing anyone who featured, and it mostly paid off. fine if you think all teams should have a massive squad of players but i don't, that's basically the problem myself and others are criticising, more entrenchment of power for those teams based on the schedule.

I don’t care? IDGAF about national teams.

this aligns you v well with uefa/gianni

xpost - agreed - getting into us soccer guy territory

xp
must admit I didn't realise udinese were in the cwc though

gotta rotate and prioritise. the fatal mistake slot made was not prioritising every tournament.

The complaint you’re making is that players play too much.

If that’s true, why wouldn’t you expect Slot to play the aforementioned players (three of whom had a lot of minutes under Klopp finishing third) throughout the season and not have Salah and Gravenberch decline as sharply over the last third of the season.

must admit I didn't realise udinese were in the cwc though

Yes, the most played player for a mid table club in the second best league in Europe played ~45 matches for the year. That was the point. The “overplayed” epidemic applies to a handful of clubs. Most are doing just fine.

the complaint i'm making is that there are too many scheduled games, resulting in a need for players to play more often, and a need for larger squads at the top end. not that managers who have to work within that system play their players too often.

but if we're talking burn out, klopp's last season is so clearly a better example than slot's first one. that team completely collapsed at the end of the season, this one won the league. who were liverpool's biggest rivals at the start of this season? arsenal and manchester city. what made their seasons far more difficult? injuries.

liverpool may have been tired at times but they had basically no injuries and won the league. they got to the league cup final and narrowly lost in the cl against the winners. slot's more control-based style is clearly less tough on the players. you can say they ran players into the ground but they clearly did so less than their two direct rivals as they had no major injuries.

all of that is putting aside the fact that seasons play out differently based on where you are at a given point in time, and this season, there was a desire to get the league wrapped up early, cos having not been tipped at all to win it, it was suddenly very much up for grabs from a fairly early stage. for a liverpool team who hadn't won the league in a stadium with people in it for three and a half decades, they were always going to go all in on the league until it was done, and any fan would want that.

none of the options for rotating out, eg salah, were fit or reliable anyway. we're not talking about a fully fit diogo jota, darwin is darwin, and chiesa was half-injured most of the season and looks unlikely to ever be the player he briefly was.

anyway, i guess more than lfc stuff i'm just surprised you can't see the sinister nature of this tournament. agree to disagree.

I don’t care? IDGAF about national teams.

You don't, but actual football fans do in places like... South America! For a start it's the only time they get see their best players play in the flesh because they're all either playing in Europe or making up the numbers in squads in elite European teams.

Has to be said, and I'm still fond of him, but I don't think anybody has ever talked about a fully fit Jota

possibly true. he had maybe one season or so at liverpool when he stayed injury-free. he's a fantastic, instinctive forward imo. reminds me of fowler when fit. so good in the air and smart on the ball. i'd hope he's not perma-crocked but it seems that way.

even the goal this season against everton was a flash of what he can do.

I don’t care? IDGAF about national teams.

― Lady Sovereign (Citizen) (milo z), Sunday, 29 June 2025

Bet you do if the US make it to the QFs in next year's WC.

lol no

The only part of international competition I care about is rooting against the US.

Restating that there are too many matches is only true if you ignore everyone but a few elite European clubs. 90% of the top 7 leagues are playing Udinese schedules rather than Madrid. Less, actually, since Germany, France and the Netherlands play fewer league games to start with.

Demanding the cancellation of entire competitions to suit those few elite clubs, rather than expecting the managers of the 10% to adapt by utilizing their roster is insane. Oh no the existing super teams might put out a marginally weaker lineup in a few league games, making the 1 and 2 team leagues more competitive.

You are ignoring arguments which you'd rather not reply to and misinterpreting arguments which you choose to oppose.

Bet you do if the US make it to the QFs in next year's WC.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, June 29, 2025 6:14 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

They'll be lucky to make it out of their group

I alluded to it above but I genuinely do not see the point of the expanded CWC in the US the way it is being presented.

This is because:

1. We have our own domestic leagues still playing games. Say what you want about their quality, this is top level domestic soccer being played week in and week out, men's and women's, as well as lower divisions.

2. The Gold Cup is happening. Again, say what you want about quality, but this is the top level international tournament for our region and especially for countries like Costa Rica, Panama, Canada, and so on, it's a real shot at a trophy that they don't get very often.

3. All you have to do is turn on one of the CWC games to tell that they have been poorly attended. When they take place in NFL stadiums where grass has been "installed" over artificial surfaces, the play is diminished. The weather has played a huge role too. In the game I attended, the Dortmund players looked like they were gonna collapse before the half. Part of that is playing a lot of games, but part of it is scheduling the game at noon in June in southern Ohio, which brings me to my last point.

4. The games are scheduled at these times because not nearly enough people give a fuck about them to justify scheduling them at more appropriate times of day, when it would be at least marginally cooler outside and more people might attend. This is the height of baseball season, those games will always get precedence for TV etc even if they're not played at the same stadia.

Overall I think the concept is kinda cool but the execution is dog shit and drags it all down. I think Milo has a point about big clubs from the western hemisphere taking their shit and proving they can hang with the mega clubs from UEFA. Case in point I would love to see Monterrey beat Dortmund this week, if only because my europoser nephew (whom I love) has been talking mad shit about the quality of all the non English, Spanish, and German teams in the tournament. (He is from MN by the way and doesn't root for his hometown Loons this hard.)

big clubs from the western hemisphere taking their shit

Taking their shot, lmao

You are ignoring arguments which you'd rather not reply to and misinterpreting arguments which you choose to oppose.

The heart of your argument is that this is a particularly evil competition because reasons - "the creation of the tournament is as naked and grand a piece of corruption as the game as ever seen." Maybe if you ignore the every World Cup or oil monarchies threatening France and England if they aren't accommodating of their clubs, etc. or human trafficking in transfers or etc.. All the owners, leagues, sponsors and continental organizations are corrupt and horrible - one somewhat interesting competition doesn't seem to be notably worse. Unless...

"There are too many matches played" - this simply isn't true except for a few elite European clubs. Who, IMO, should be forced to explore their options on how to deal with scheduling rather than pretend it's a universal problem - and a single competition every four years is pretty far down the order of causes.

It will "widen the gap between rich and poor european teams" - this is ridiculous. PSG, Bayern and Real Madrid already have insurmountable structural advantages when it comes to money, the Premier League is rich top to bottom. One new (revised) competition has no impact on the one and two team leagues that have existed for decades. And OTOH, some of the money is going to European teams that struggle to compete with Crystal Palace financially (Benfica, Inter) and a significant chunk of money is going to Western Hemisphere clubs that get raided regularly by Europe for talent, putting them in a better position (either to hold on to talent or invest in training more). Was this a goal of the tournament? Of course not - but it's actually happening.

It's a somewhat interesting tournament, a decent idea poorly executed (use domes so players don't have to run in 98% humidity and 90 degree heat, go back to an all knockout format with the extra money and press) - but the arguments framing it as a particularly heinous abuse of players are lousy and extremely Eurocentric.

So obvious you still don't know how this tournament came to exist. Seriously, Google it.

As for the rest, it's cool you believe in trickle down economics when discussing football.

also benfica and inter milan are both higher in the deloitte rich list than crystal palace. inter's revenue is almost double that of palace. bayern are not on the level of psg or real madrid financially at all. you are not correct in any of the facts there.

the european clubs get more money than the others in the cwc so it isn't balancing out anything, and as discussed the raiding of talent will be more widespread given need for bigger squads and the cash to pay for it. some of these clubs are already are hoovering up other clubs around the world in service of this.

and it's not a matter of there being an order of causes or a hierarchy, it's the cumulative effect of the expanded cl, the expansion of international football friendlies into the nations league, more teams being added to the euros and the world cup. this affects any clubs with international players, which isn't solely the elite, and it affects international football itself, which whether you personally like it or not is a core part of the game.

They'll be lucky to make it out of their group

― underminer of twenty years of excellent contribution to this borad (dan m), Sunday, 29 June 2025 bookmarkflaglink

Italy won a WC under Mussolini. I know its the US here, and I hope you are right, but I expect a lot of Euro teams to bomb in difficult conditions next year, too.

I just mean they really aren't any good, no team cohesion, mostly clueless manager who clearly wants out, etc. The political situation here is absolutely fucked, I agree with you there. I think it's more likely that FIFA bails and has the tournament somewhere else.

seems like fifa and gianni are all in on trump so i can't see that happening.

Quite a bit about whether there are too many games for the players, but the bigger issue seems to be that there are too many games for the fans

FIFA and UEFA are all about the fans.

So obvious you still don't know how this tournament came to exist. Seriously, Google it.

Yes, the Saudi PIF laundered money through DAZN to help their World Cup bid. I don't find that particularly egregious relative to anything else that happens in professional soccer (they already own an English team outright last I checked) and the competition was already organized beforehand, it was going to be a complete bust with a lack of prize money.

Nowhere have I said that this one tournament would completely undo decades of Europe's financial advantage, but some Western Hemisphere clubs getting a big payday is a reality - and the prize money will have negligible impact on Europe where these clubs already have insane advantages. If you abolish the CWC St. Pauli isn't going to become financially competitive with Bayern. This is you trying to work backward to find a reason why the CWC is particularly bad.

such as "and as discussed the raiding of talent will be more widespread given need for bigger squads and the cash to pay for it" - are we really pretending that talent raiding hasn't been the reality for decades? If Manchester City and Real Madrid incorporated five more occasional starters each to keep their superstars from playing 60 games it wouldn't matter and they still have to meet home grown quotas anyway.

this affects any clubs with international players,

It doesn't, really, though. Most clubs/players aren't playing in UEFA competitions to start with, few of those are going deep. The number of clubs that are making runs in three competitions with a lineup of international starters is very small - most are playing a league schedule, a couple of cups and some internationals. If averaging one match a week is 'too many,' does the Championship need to eliminate teams since that schedule is 48+ matches with cups?

It's that Saudi Arabia paid FIFA 1bn for the World Cup, via Dazn not that they laundered money.

I know this handwaving of "nothing is ever getting worse" is popular on ILX but actually this is a particularly egregious example of corruption at the heart of one of the most important tournaments in the world.

And for about the twentieth time, yes talent raising has gone on for a long time, but it is getting worse. Something already being bad does not mean it can't get worse. There are clear examples of this. Multiclub ownership is one, take a look at Savinho and his career path if you want an example of where that's taking us. In general, players are moving at younger ages and skipping the middle or lower clubs. That will continue.

A decent amount of players also think there are too many games, and players unions etc. That doesn't seem something to be totally ignored.

As for fans, it's a good point since plenty of clubs are trying to think of ways to sideline "legacy fans".

You are suggesting this tournament is some outlier for those of us opposed to it but that is because you have had to be spoonfed every single other example of factors that are part of the same trend. Nobody is saying this is an outlier, the point is it's bad because it's part of a wider trend of administrative and state-backed corruption in football, milking money by constantly increasing the schedule, and boosting the number of games. Perhaps you think this is a one-off and it'll stop here. We shall see, but I definitely don't. Why would it, when the purpose of this expansion is to make money?

So sure, it is just one tournament and on its own, it is not perhaps too significant, but it is clear what it represents, the trend it's part of, and that the way it came to be was, literally, one of the largest and most open pieces of corruption in the history of football, given the money involved and the fact it paid for a World Cup.

It's that Saudi Arabia paid FIFA 1bn for the World Cup, via Dazn not that they laundered money.

Yes, that’s what I said. They couldn’t pay FIFA a billion directly so they laundered it through DAZN.

This is not ‘how the competition came to be’ though.

a particularly egregious example of corruption at the heart of one of the most important tournaments in the world.

Didn’t the Argentinian junta use World Cup hosting to legitimize their brutal regime 50 years ago?

Seems like bribery is pretty standard when it comes to World Cups and FIFA.

it is just one tournament and on its own, it is not perhaps too significant

Bingo. You’re assigning every evil of a modern professional sport (some evils, I will maintain are not actually getting worse they’re simply just as bad as ever - Germany, Spain and France haven’t been competitive in a long time and rich European clubs buying up young talent from Brazil/Argentina/Eastern Europe has not changed) to one competition.

No I'm not, you've just responded to a post in which I mention the World Cup, and I've repeatedly mentioned the Nations League and the Champions League. I could not be doing more to broaden the argument which you seek to narrow.

And the bribery is how this revamped competition came to be, it is the heart of the funding for it.

What's different from past corruption (I don't believe Qatar or Russia was free of this, but those are also recent) is that there's not even any effort to hide it now. That represents a slide into a worse world.

And again, you asked me to highlight why the inequality and raiding players is getting worse, and I did. Yet again you chose to ignore that.

Just as you ignored the fact I am overtly saying, over and over again, my problem with this tournament is it's another example of a wider trend for corrupt expansion of the calendar.

You're not arguing with points I'm actually making, ultimately, but with points you have a prefabricated position on which perhaps someone else holds.