other people's success: classic or dud

obv a lot of the time i dont care either way but ima jealous bastard when its ppl i "know" ~~ not a great feeling and i wish i was a better friend/colleague but there u go

these are the things i think about when i cant sleep btw

i hate it when my friends become successful

oh the other upside of starting this now is that britishes are a h8ful race ime get some early support for the "d" side

If they're not successful at anything I have any interest in myself, than it's easy for it to be classic. My actor friend getting film roles is classic (although I resent how little he has to do for so much money), as is my musician mate getting gigs, filmmaker friend finding work on a film etc etc. Otoh anyone achieving anything in a realm in which I myself am underachieving is duddududududdud.

i was just talking to a friend last night about how tall poppy syndrome is one of the very worst things about british culture

True, dat. (Tall poppy syndrome.)

But also, there is something to it, that one sometimes sees one's friends' accomplishments as some kind of reflection on your own uselessness and inadequacy, rather than some kind of celebration of "wow, what awesome friends I have!"

a friend of mine recently got awarded a grant that I'd also applied for (dunno how many awards were made but it was in the plural, it wasn't that we were competing for a single thing). We'd interviewed for it together, talked it over together, etc, and while the day I found out I'd not got it I was sort of rage-y that they didn't recognise my awesome awesomeness, I don't begrudge her it - tbf she wanted it more than me so it's good she's got it.
What I hate is when I tell our mutual acquaintances 'oh i didn't get it, but x did' and they do this whole knowing "haha you're doing a good impression of being cool w/ it but i can see through you!" spiel. And there's no way of saying "ok my pride was bruised but w/e i have other options" without sounding like i'm putting down her success, which i don't want to do. and ugh basically fuck social interaction it's too hard.

i've tried really hard to work on this aspect of my personality, i feel u tho lamp

I think in the UK there is this idea that there is ONLY SO MUCH SUCCESS to go round.

So one person's success automatically means another person's failure.

Which is weird, because in the US (which is, conversely, much more of a winner-takes-all society) there's this idea that there is an infinite amount of success out there, just waiting, if you just want to work for it and grab it. So one person's success isn't SEEN as monopolising too much of the success-pool in a way that it is seen as doing in the UK.

yeah i think that's otm - it's not that i don't understand having twinges of resentment in these situations, but it's so much more productive to use other people's success as inspiration for yourself. sort of "oh, i can do that too then!" and i guess my field is so up and down - everyone goes through as many fallow periods as fertile ones, no matter what stage of their career they're at, so...one's time will always come. like cis i've been pleasantly surprised by my reactions at times, being genuinely happy for friends being successful.

also jealousy is REALLY REALLY not a good look.

it's different from hating on successful people because they're shit at what they do - i very much enjoy being a hater - those people tend not to be friends (tho). all my friends are awesomely talented people and would deserve any and all success they find.

it's a total dud when their successes come from copying one's own plans/ideas/etc.

Yes, but everyone copies, borrows, steals, is "influenced" by their friends and colleagues. It just kind of happens.

As said in that giant moaning thread yesterday, the only people who really get upset about this kind of things are those who lack the creativity to turn around and create something else.

Or, again, those that say "hey, I have loads of other ideas anyway"

I think in the UK there is this idea that there is ONLY SO MUCH SUCCESS to go round.

I think this is actually true in some situations. Being a smaller country, etc, there are fewer places / venues / lotteryprizes / bursaries / school places / bandsneedingbassplayersthatplay musicthatdoesn'tmakeyouwanttosmashstuff / etc.

The Arctic Monkeys put two pairs of tickets into copies of their new single.

Are the "British" particularly prone to this? Or is it, that they're just not "American" enough? What say you, other Europeans, Australians, Canadians, etc.

In societies with less opportunity to succeed, success is more likely to breed resentment?

I am only comparing and contrasting "British" and "American" attitudes because those are the two cultures in which I have lived the longest. I don't pretend to speak of other cultures of which I have no experience. It would be interesting to see what people in Australia or Russia think of success and people's reactions to it.

I was about to comment yeah because to me, tall poppy syndrome is something australians have in SPADES but it isnt a jealousy or lack of esteem thing. Its quite the opposite! We like to remind people not to get a big head. Aussies don't like swanning around nobs with ideas above their station.

Massively DUD. All achievers should be shot.

What does "above their station" mean in this context?

Sounds like it's related to the notion of the 'whingeing Pom'.

Well yeah, obviously not strictly a class thing. And perhaps its an a bit of an old fashioned idea now, but it often does seem like australians dislike people who show off, who have too much money/power/fame, esp if they came from a simple beginning maybe?

We like to remind people not to get a big head. Aussies don't like swanning around nobs with ideas above their station.

that's exactly what british people say too and it's such bullshit, that whole "cutting down to size" thing.

why the hell shouldn't people be proud of their achievements and talents?? what's wrong with displaying the self-confidence necessary to get anywhere with them?

Because people often succeed in Britain not on merit or self-confidence or whatever?

See, I wasn't sure if it was a class thing, or if it was a dislike of novelty or newfangledness, or a dislike of showiness, or a dislike of ... for lack of a better word, dislike of "difference"?

Yeah tbh I dont know where it comes from and it isnt something I'm into, I'm all for being proud of the success of my friends personally.

It's not a dislike of difference

Yeah, it is the kneejerk reaction (see Calvin Harris's twitter meltdown last week) that if someone gets "undeserved" success it's written off to some class thing - and vice versa, that if someone gets a slating, it's for class reasons.

I'm not saying it doesn't ever happen, but it seems to be reduced to kind of a lazy bad excuse to say it's the only reason anyone gets success or slatings.

It's Fear, once again.

It's not about succeeding on not-merit, as no-one sulks about friends winning the lottery.
(although they might when they 'move-up' and start showing off their new conservatory etc..)

It is a class thing but to be fair, I pretty much hate everyone these days. Achievers and underachievers on all social strata. All are wankers.

Also kind of wondering about the religious heritage aspects of it.

That so much of the American WASP success-worship is very much based off that whole Calvinistic predestination thing - you have to be successful to prove that you are one of the elect, and your status on earth is proof of your destiny for heaven.

While other branches of protestantism very much contain this fear of being too showy because pride is a sin and iconoclasm and plainness has been absorbed into the culture - successful people and their blingin' lifestyles are almost too close to graven images and golden calves for comfort?

I can get to that

Another aspect of not being showy with possessions is that people will appreciate you in a more substantial way. Yeah, and the nouveau riche thing.

I am pretty much immune to journalistic jealousy - the traffic of ideas being what it is - but of course my friends are not (and never have been) exclusively aspiring writers or similar. My writing isn't as specialized as some of the people on ILX who are review critics (I gave reviewing up because it was getting in the way of my plans) but it's the one thing I've always been secure about, and a little bit of local rivalry is kind of beneath me although I try to understand why it's happening. I do become conflicted about others' successes from time to time, but it's only in the rare cases where that success has dislodged some ugly social climbing aspect or some kind of outright friendship exploitation has occurred in the person's relationship to me. Though I haven't quite got where I need to be yet, I know my own success or failure has less to do with what other people are doing (or doing for me) than what I am doing for myself.

happy for any successes my friends have. they all earn a lot more than me, that's for sure, but it hasn't changed anything from 10-15 years ago.

It doesn't bother ne in the slightest either, unless they turn into grasping acquisitive wankers or go all Tory and right wing

Are the "British" particularly prone to this? Or is it, that they're just not "American" enough? What say you, other Europeans, Australians, Canadians, etc.

All the countries I've spent any time in have this myth that their citizens are particularly prone to jealousy over success. They certainly say this all the time in France, they say it in Australia (I think the term "tall poppy syndrome" originated there), I bet they say it in Germany. So it's definitely not a British thing. Maybe the Americans don't do it so much, thanks to the whole American Dream schtick.

Americans do this, but it centres around 'shit' as in 'he thinks his shit doesn't stink' or 'he forgot everybody has to crap at some point'.

when i interviewed annie, she went on and on and on about how it was endemic in norwegian culture and that's why she had to leave

Nothing to do with Geir then?

Whenever some French businessman living in America is interviewed on French TV, he inevitably kicks off with "en France, on n'aime pas le succès"

i remember him when he has no arse to his trousers

Successful people moaning that no-one appreciates them sufficiently is surely annoying all over the world

boring answer but it depends entirely on the level of success and how it was achieved. a lot of the criticism of successful people here tends to revolve around the idea that they don't really deserve it and is aimed mostly at entertainers and artists (and athletes...the not the British ones obv arf).

a lot of the criticism of successful people here tends to revolve around the idea that they don't really deserve it and is aimed mostly at entertainers and artists (and athletes...the not the British ones obv arf).

Class again? How much criticism does Jordan get from young working class women?

also there are clearly facets of this in the US e.g. the whole 'hater' concept that came thru rap

where success = "getting the far as fuck away from where you started", then that's a given anywhere, i think.

this bugs me the most when its not a friend but an acquaintance or someone i went to school with or something--when its a close friend usually i feel sort of good about it, like hey im this successful guys friend--that being said none of my close friends are actually very successful at anything so

I'm not quite sure what most people mean by 'succes' here. Job in high places, lots of cash, that sort of thing? If so, I really couldn't care less. It's not classic and not dud. I wish my friends and loved ones all the succes they can get, in every which way. For others outside that circle I truly don't care and have no opinion about it.

max otm. For my friends, I think they're talented and hardworking and it makes me proud to see them doing their thing and having other people like it too. But for vaguer acquaintances I often begrudge it and decide they seem to have had opportunities that most people haven't, or for incessant networking and promotion of a very slight talent.

but what really determines #1 vs #2 is probably not really hard work or talent, just whether they were friendly to me or seemed unimpressed by my existence - and occasionally in becoming successful people move from #1 to #2 because I convince myself they have snubbed their older friends for a new cooler successful circle, except I know this is irrational, it's just that being successful involves meeting hundreds of new people and is busy and tiring and it's hard to keep up

this is bad to admit because as an unsuccessful person I am terrible at meeting people, keeping up with people, being cheery to strangers - so if I became successful, by my own rules I would be "stuck up", whereas I'm just lazy and tend to assume that people are not interested in me, rather than vice versa (and if I suddenly became more social then I would be fake, smug, etc)

as for people I don't personally know - what? not sure: a whole lot of projection about which category of personal friends they most remind me of?

this is bad to admit because as an unsuccessful person I am terrible at meeting people, keeping up with people, being cheery to strangers - so if I became successful, by my own rules I would be "stuck up", whereas I'm just lazy and tend to assume that people are not interested in me, rather than vice versa (and if I suddenly became more social then I would be fake, smug, etc)

wow, otm here too.

(Or it might make them worse. In my experiences, unfortunately, many people would be more understanding of "oh, she just suddenly became a snob" than "actually, I have had a quite serious brush with mental illness")

Whoa, sorry, wrong thread.

OK, got one...

Some of youse might know about the dance troup in Turkey. We sort of worked in occasional conjunction with a bunch of, um, musicians. They didn't really do owt for us, and vice versa, they were a separate entity. One being the 'gang'/'band' leader, wrote songs, was very pop in the 'jamiroquai' / Curiosity-cat way. Heard some of his stuff, not terribly enamoured but all professionally done, fair play etc. We got on OK, but he was somewhat sniffy about some of the people in the dance group, so..

Anyway, few years later he had some solo hits, and became the band leader for a chat show on C5.

Forward to a couple years ago, famous UK pop star gets 'best male' and thanks this dude by 1st name. I thinks "OK, whoa, that *has* to be this guy!" and so it was.

So, people are saying "whoa, you OK?" like i'm gonna be pissed off about it, but hey.

1) His solo stuff is nothing I'd want to have owt to do with, it's just not me.
2) This particular 'big hit' is actually alright, and I was pleased that he had produced something of quality that had deserved the success.

So, yeah. I guess...

ah kent his faither

Lloyd George knew him

i thought more about it and i think im just jealous of ppl i no who seem to have it "figured out" i resent their happiness somehow

^^ otm

Most of the people who I've been acquainted with have become successful off the back of one good idea or one interesting assignment; after that it's what you can extrapolate from the breaks you get.

slightly off topic but the tall poppy syndrome: i've actually had to explain this to a lot of americans when explaining the biggest difference btw new zealand and the US. the most obv example of this is in houses. first time i went to chicago, i was floored by the houses in my in-laws' neighbourhood - colonial castles, for realz, just lining the streets. like, the most ostentatious displays of wealth and success i'd ever seen. in nz, ppl just DON'T do stuff like that - it's just considered really tacky and showy, and def stems from the whole 'tall poppy' thing - it's not cool to really unsubtly display yr success (it's not that we're more humble, i don't think, just more sneaky).

no one has it "figured out"! some people are good at pretending that they have (tho)

ah kent his faither

Although if you're successful, either people spend time trying to figure YOU out or you get successful enough where you no longer need go figure.

i don't think "stems from" is quite correct? It's more that humility and not being ostentatious is a v important cultural value in a lot of countries, and tall poppy syndrome's one of various ways of making sure that value gets enforced.

tall poppy syndrome's not just about displays of ostentatious wealth - the target doesn't even necessarily have to do anything except be successful to incur it. or it can be something as nebulous as a way of walking. people do it to drag others that they perceive to be "above" them in some hierarchical way back down to their level.

i think superficially it's about humility or whatever, but that's really just a mask for not wanting others to do significantly better than you and your peers

Am finding the "tall poppy" discussion the most interesting part of this thread, incl the US vs UK/AUS/NZ comparisons.

... and vs. France, apparently

If the only permissable definition of "success" is raking in piles of money, then by personal observation I would have to say it's more dud than classic, because the road to wealth so often runs through the territory of seriously warped values and self-delusion. Perversely, this kind of success just confirms such people in their warped values and leads them to hang onto them even more fervently. Ultra-dud.

If I get to define "success" as becoming a great human being, then it is the most classic of all possible classic things.

Does it ever seem like all of the UK is really just an American small town? The values seem so much closer to those of Anytown, USA, and not at all like a cosmopolitan nation with major cities in it.

Another question: Is America the only winner-takes-all society? Japan has the same "tall poppy syndrome," referred to by the saying, "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down." This doesn't refer to success only though, just any deviation from the norm.

I've heard that "nail" one referred to as a Chinese saying too- wonder where its origin is?

My feeling is that the U.S. is indeed the odd one out here among the wealthy, developed countries. Its society is so aspirational, there's such a cult of success there, that the tall poppy syndrome doesn't exist so much.

i don't begrudge other people's success in my field, and my writer/journalist friends encourage each other, I'd like to think (as much as self-absorbed creative types can do so). but what really bothers me is when people insist on putting their material wealth/business success/VIP status in your face. i have a relative by marriage who has really alienated me over the years with this. he's a decent guy at heart (and an ethical businessman and good boss) but it's like everything that comes out of his mouth is meant to impress. the most boring thing in the world is somebody who endlessly invites you to admire their STUFF, you know, slobber over the latest acquisitions. so tedious, but then I'm an old hippie.

My feeling is that the U.S. is indeed the odd one out here among the wealthy, developed countries. Its society is so aspirational, there's such a cult of success there, that the tall poppy syndrome doesn't exist so much.

This is totally, totally true. Biggest car, biggest watch, "hottest" girlfriend, biggest house, flashiest vacations - really warped shit. No subtlety, no appreciation for the quiet, correct things in life, and, more than anything else, no satisfaction.

It really gets tiring, to be totally honest.

It's true! But altho the pressures are always "out there", it's not THAT hard to just opt out of a lot of them. It's tiring to watch other people believe in it, I guess, and it makes me hate, for instance, TV and lot of things that I don't control the content of.

it makes me hate, for instance, TV and lot of things that I don't control the content of.

One hundred percent. If anything, the last 10 years of blinged out, MTV crib culture has made me hate television in a very visceral way.

It makes me hate interior designers more, because SOMEONE got paid to put all that appalling shit in one place and take pictures of it.

anyone who uses a phrase that is tall poppy syndrome in earnest is a cock

^^thankyou for your insight.

the success-begrudging we're talking about isn't really the same thing as disliking ostentatious displays of material wealth.